[Dasilva]

I look forward to Viva Pinata. Gamespot gave it a great review and said that it may look "kiddie" but is one of the 360s best games. We're all kids deep down.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

No, PSP is a failure because PSP is so damn expensive, has a very limited array of games and hasn't got much to offer other than nice graphics.Nintendo DS sells more but not because it has Nintendo Logo on it,but because unlike PSP it delivers what it promises which is cheap,clean,old school fun.In short just the "public perception" is not enough to sell a console.In other words, you're wrong .

I disagree, i know many people who brought a DS for their children or themselves just because it was the new nintendo handheld. Sony was a new entrant to the handheld market, and it showed. e.g after nintendos handhelds being geat, no one had a reason to buy a psp when a new nintendo one was coming out at the same time. Price was also a factor, yet if you look at the demographic of who bought which console, you will find the people that know more about consoles and hardware chose the psp and the main DS demographic is children (generally, of course there are always exceptions)

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Please... If you actually took time to read the press reactions, you'd see there wasn't much hateful bashing, it was mostly disappointment, coming even from people who were looking forward to PS3.

Apparently, most people are not that crazy about PS3 anymore. After the initial craze, eBay prices took a dive and there were even reports on some units not even reaching their retail prices. Like EvoG said, the percentage of hardcore fans is relatively small (though I'd say there are at least 10 million worldwide) and even some of them are jumping the ship. If you've been checking out the mainstream forums, you must have noticed all those long time PlayStation fans who simply decided they're not getting one for the time being. Some of those reports are undoubtedly fake, but they can't all be. People working in places like Bust Buy and GameStop are reporting Wii and Xbox 360 are selling like crazy, it will be interesting seeing the sales numbers for November. Interestingly enough, folks don't seem to be that excited about PS3 anymore.

Based on the hadware and the brand name, everyone predicted it would wipe the floor with DS. It's not a failure, it's a letdown.

Like Solid Snake explained, that's not the only reason DS succeeded, otherwise GBA Micro would have also outsold PSP which, as far as I know, hasn't happened (maybe in Japan ).

Yes interest is waining, that is because it is released now, it is current gen and no need to hype it anymore. Ebay sales may be cheaper now than they once were, but the fact they even got up to 3 times their value says something in itself.

This is rather pointless anyway. You are of the opinion that the playstation being the leading brand in video gaming and the preceeding consoles being the best selling games machines ever, will not help the ps3 to sell. I beleive it will, lets agree to disagree

Oh btw, have you played Viva Pinata? thinking about buying it for my GF and want to know if it is good

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Litrick

This is rather pointless anyway. You are of the opinion that the playstation being the leading brand in video gaming and the preceeding consoles being the best selling games machines ever, will not help the ps3 to sell. I beleive it will, lets agree to disagree

Fair enough. Although, as I said before, I do believe the brand recognition will help PS3 to sell (to some extent), it just won't necessarily help it to win, what ever winning might mean in this situation. PS3 still might "win", but it will take a lot more than just being a PlayStation.

Oh btw, have you played Viva Pinata? thinking about buying it for my GF and want to know if it is good

No, I don't have an Xbox 360 yet.

But everyone at 1UP has gone completely bonkers about it, from editors to forumites. The only problem might turn out to be prying your girlfriend off your Xbox 360. You know, so that you could play it yourself.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Fair enough. Although, as I said before, I do believe the brand recognition will help PS3 to sell (to some extent), it just won't necessarily help it to win, what ever winning might mean in this situation. PS3 still might "win", but it will take a lot more than just being a PlayStation.

No, I don't have an Xbox 360 yet.

But everyone at 1UP has gone completely bonkers about it, from editors to forumites. The only problem might turn out to be prying your girlfriend off your Xbox 360. You know, so that you could play it yourself.

Haha nice, i have enough trouble prying her away from Kameo

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Does anyone here think that the PS3 was so over-engineered and too new in its tech features that it alienated many consumers and industry people? On one hand, most people don't own a 'true' HDTV just yet and are hoping to get one when they become more ubiquitous and the price drops dramatically. On the other hand, Blu-ray movies are still quite rare so there may not be good reason to purchase a gaming console (of all things) at the present time just watch to those movies.

And then there are the third party developers who chose to hold back on making games for this console, waiting instead for the first party devs to figure out the Cell technology and pass on the knowledge; the third party devs need to play it smart, it's far too risky - both financially and technologically - to work with an as-of-yet unproven and inefficient system. Given the initially low install base, the mishandling of the console's launch (technical setbacks, late delivery of dev kits, very low production numbers, and awful PR) and the fact that Sony has often treated third party devs like shit, one can understand this decision. Perhaps Sony made a mistake of keeping one foot in the future, and the other foot in the future.

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Does anyone here think that the PS3 was so over-engineered and too new in its tech features that it alienated many consumers and industry people? On one hand, most people don't own a 'true' HDTV just yet and are hoping to get one when they become more ubiquitous and the price drops dramatically. On the other hand, Blu-ray movies are still quite rare so there may not be good reason to purchase a gaming console (of all things) at the present time just watch to those movies.

And then there are the third party developers who chose to hold back on making games for this console, waiting instead for the first party devs to figure out the Cell technology and pass on the knowledge; the third party devs need to play it smart, it's far too risky - both financially and technologically - to work with an as-of-yet unproven and inefficient system. Given the initially low install base, the mishandling of the console's launch (technical setbacks, late delivery of dev kits, very low production numbers, and awful PR) and the fact that Sony has often treated third party devs like shit, one can understand this decision. Perhaps Sony made a mistake of keeping one foot in the future, and the other foot in the future.

I think the timing is not ideal, but their descision to look to the future will probably pay off in the end. HDTVs are becoming increasingly popular and more and more gamers will be looking towards HD, because it really is a huge leap forward in terms of graphics, and gameplay (the clarity helps with gameplay for multiplayer shooters etc). Also the fact that the ps3 is backwards compatible with help all of those ps2 owners to transistion and still play their fav games. People seem to be very short sighted about the whole blu ray issue also. Eventually you will see High Def video streaming directly into games, something that will only be possible with such a large storage medium, and also being unlimited with the amount of audio, or textures or code will make it much easier for deveopers to create the truly next gen experiences everyone is hoping for. Once the programming is figured out and the true power is harnessed, people will finally realise what the ps3 is all about. So while it makes it a challenge for Sony now, i think they made the right descision to go with such a technically advanced device.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

And yet Sony is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, has lost hundreds of millions in reparations for their laptop battery recall, is faced with lawsuits over the BMG rootkit fiasco (did they settle on that Immersion force feedback copyright breach?), has seen a 97% drop in profits, is suffering from plunging stock prices, and is hounded by less than stellar reviews of the PS3 from highly influential mainstream press.

Looks like they're incredibly desperate to put all their eggs in one basket and slap the PS3 label on that basket. It'll take at least several years to just get back the cost of developing this console (i.e. break even), and another several years to make some kind of profit.

[EvoG]

*sigh*

Okay question time:

What does a truly next gen experience entail? Let me help you craft your answer a bit:

• We already have 1080p on the 360, so its not resolution...
  
• At the very MOST you have equal amounts of memory, with the difference being mainly the 360's unified 512megs vs. the PS3's split 256GDDR3 and 256XDR mem, so it will never be increased texture resolutions...
  
• Between the two CPU structures, the 360 (Triple Core PowerPC) exceeds in general processing over the six threads (3Corex2threadsPerCore) while the Cell(Single Core PowerPC + 6 SPE {8 SPE - 1 for Redundancy and - 1 for OS}) exceeds in math calculations(particle systems), but is unable to do much of anything else such as AI (remember Jades Assassins Creed comment about AI superior on the 360?) as an SPE doesn't have branch prediction(unresolved instruction execution), so while the PS3 has an advantage of being able to have 6 distinct "threads" (360 requires that an entire cpu be used despite having 2 separate threads) it isn't decidely 'better' in any significant way and ultimately is pretty much the same as the 360...so its not any great leaps in raw power like the 360 was over the first Xbox...
  
• HD Video during gameplay is an archaic throwback to the days of FMV in the early 90's when in-game graphics just weren't suitable for 'narrative' and storytelling, so it can't POSSIBLY be HD video FMV...

How is it a good thing that people(programmers) already pretty smart in their own right, have to "figure out" how to program this machine to do what is easily done on the 360?

• The PS2 had twice the performance of the Xbox, but it ended up 'under performing' in this capacity due to its complexity. 10 years people, and we've pretty much max'd the ratio of capability to technology. Its arguable that given a bit more memory, the PS2 could be capable of more, but we'll never know now...

Point is? Both machines are ultimately the same. 360 will have better AI while the PS3 will have better particle smoke and vertex processing...but who cares? I'm having a blast with the Wii and its lack of spectacular graphics is not affecting me one bit. How do you explain that? Is it perhaps that graphics do not make for better gameplay? Is it possible that 'next-gen' does NOT mean more polys, higher resolution textures, faster mpeg decompression and HD output?! How can this be! Is it POSSIBLE, that next-gen should gives us gameplay experiences we haven't had before? Dead Rising couldn't have been done on last gen consoles, so the experience of wading through hundreds of undead in my opinion is a great example of next-gen. Its easy to understand; you have greater power, and instead of simply delivering the same experience with greater fidelity, Capcom offered to derive gameplay from that writhing mass of undead...using that power to generate those hordes that are far more compelling than if we only had 10 zombies but with 2048x2048 textures multiplied by diffuse, spec, spec color, translucency and normals.

No the PS3 isn't going to OMG OvARWH3Lm you with next-gen goodness, auto-magically next Christmas or the year after that or the year after that. The concern we have is that because its the same as the 360 but more complicated to program for (can we HONESTLY doubt John Carmack on this?!?), that Sony's priorities are drastically skewed away from gaming. That as Trep put it, they're tossing all the eggs in one basket because of a desperate need for BluRay to succeed, but not as a truly beneficial medium for games delivery, but for LICENSING. Cell? Licensing for supercomputing in the science sector. This was less about games as much as a grab-all by Sony, and its obvious and its annoying.


Cheers

[EvoG]

Oh and btw, Viva Pinata is very fun...my girlfriend loves it and its quite engaging and much deeper than you'd think just looking at screens.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by EvoG

No the PS3 isn't going to OMG OvARWH3Lm you with next-gen goodness....

< takes a breather from playing Gears of War >

Isn't that supposed to be 'OMG t3h 0v4R\/\/h3L/\/\' ?

< goes back to playing Gears of War >

[EvoG]

Haha...its clear your L337 is more powerful than mine...





...so, how are you liking it? I'm slowly (Wii Zelda and R6 Vegas has me distracted of course) going through now on Insane, and its awesomely hard...and since I never play anything over again, let alone RIGHT after I beat it, its a pleasant surprise that all of Gears is so visceral, that I WANT to play it again on Insane, overwhelming pain and crying be damned!

[insane_cobra]

Just to rectify some things:

Originally Posted by EvoG

We already have 1080p on the 360, so its not resolution...

And I heard from several different sources that Xbox 360 is actually better suited for dealing with such high resolutions/protocols due to architectural and memory advantages. Doesn't matter, because 720p really is the sweet spot for the time being and even Sony had to acknowledge that.

At the very MOST you have equal amounts of memory, with the difference being mainly the 360's unified 512megs vs. the PS3's split 256GDDR3 and 256XDR mem, so it will never be increased texture resolutions...

There's another difference. PS3's operating system reserves 32 MB of GDDR3 and 64 MB of XDR memory at all times. It also requires a whole SPE just for itself, and games have to give up an additional SPE if OS demands it.

Xbox 360's operating system, on the other hand, requires only 32 MB of unified memory and around 3% of processing time on Core1 and Core2 (Core0 is always completely free). Microsoft's experience with system software really shows in this area so from that perspective Xbox 360 is in clear advantage.

Between the two CPU structures, the 360 (Triple Core PowerPC) exceeds in general processing over the six threads (3Corex2threadsPerCore) while the Cell(Single Core PowerPC + 6 SPE {8 SPE - 1 for Redundancy and - 1 for OS}) exceeds in math calculations(particle systems), but is unable to do much of anything else such as AI (remember Jades Assassins Creed comment about AI superior on the 360?) as an SPE doesn't have branch prediction(unresolved instruction execution), so while the PS3 has an advantage of being able to have 6 distinct "threads" (360 requires that an entire cpu be used despite having 2 separate threads) it isn't decidely 'better' in any significant way and ultimately is pretty much the same as the 360...

Neither Xenon nor Cell support any sort of branch prediction in hardware as they're both in-order processors (instructions are executed sequentially). Branch prediction is done in software at compile time, but due to architectural differences, Xenon is yet again in advantage and allows for more flexible threading. Cell, on the other hand, allows for greater parallelization, but it's quite difficult (if not impossible) keeping all SPEs running at full capacity without choking.

HD Video during gameplay is an archaic throwback to the days of FMV in the early 90's when in-game graphics just weren't suitable for 'narrative' and storytelling, so it can't POSSIBLY be HD video FMV...

Well, JRPGs still use great amounts of FMV, but it's really not a problem distributing data over several DVDs if one is not enough (and it's still cheaper than using a single Blu-ray disc). The problems could only arise with free-roaming open-ended games which allow you to go from one point in the world to any other point at any given moment (like GTA or Oblivion), but there are no indications single DVDs will become insufficient for those in foreseeable future (GTA4 will be on both systems).

Also, let's not forget that if you want to fill a Blu-ray disc up with meaningful data, you need to create an awful lot of content. That won't be feasible for most companies until there are much more efficient asset creation pipelines. Even now developing for PS3 is more time consuming and more expensive than developing for Xbox 360.

The PS2 had twice the performance of the Xbox, but it ended up 'under performing' in this capacity due to its complexity.

No, on the whole Xbox had a lot more power under the hood, but it's true that PS2's CPU ("Emotion Engine") achieved more than twice the performance of Xbox's CPU on paper (6.2 GFLOPS vs. 2.9 GFLOPS). But it's not only peak values than count, efficiency is also important. PS3 achieves greater peak values than Xbox 360, but those performance spikes are usually separated by performance valleys; Xbox 360 is much better at keeping the performance at steady levels. And, of course, it's much easier to harness that power on Xbox 360 because of its simpler architecture and better development tools.

[EvoG]

No you're right all around Insane, I just wanted to avoid sounding biased, more for my point that while 'next-gen' is being sold to us through technology, the so called 'true next-gen' doesn't exist the way Sony fans believe it does.

My PS2 comment was exactly what you hit upon...peak versus applicable. As such in a vacuum using all 8 SPE's, PS3 attains twice the peak of the 360 as did the PS2 vs. the Xbox, but erroneous data aside (PS3 only uses 6 SPE's in application{games}), its ultimately about whats easily accessible and useable by the developer, again as you stated.

FMV's, despite the heavy use in jRPG's just can't justify the storage space, at the very least in my opinion, so if not HD video, there's even less reason for the massive space, as just as you said, authoring even 10 gigs of unique quality content is a challenge for talented dev's, let alone the capacity of BluRay. Thats why I scoffed at Ted Prices claim that Resistance REQUIRED Bluray to even be made, when ultimately the numbers came out that indeed, only 6.2 gigs of that disc is US region authored content, and the rest of the 7+ gigs is for the other regions(audio) plus FMV.

...and finally yes, 720 is the sweet spot for fidelity:performance, so all in all we agree...high five! o/



Cheers bud

[insane_cobra]

[SoccerDude28]

Well it all boils down to the games themselves and the multi-media capabilities of the console. The rest of the tech mumbo jumbo like CPU speeds, the Graphics chips used and the ease of programming for it won't make a difference in the long run. The PS2 had less power than the XBOX, the worst graphics last gen, and was a beast to program for and it still came out on top. The DVD player was a MAJOR reason for that at the beggining from what I recall, especially in Japan.

As far as multi-media goes, I give the PS3 the edge. Some of you may not be excited about blu-ray, but to me and a lot of HD-TV movie fans, it is a bargain to get both a game console and the cheapest blu-ray player out there. I will never use DVD's again when I get my hands on one of those babies. And it does provide game makers more room, though I think that is less of a priority for most gamers. Do I think 200 dollars is a high price to pay for a blu-ray player? Hell No..

As far as the games go, the 360 right now definitely has the edge, but it also has a 1 year head start. It's just now that it is starting to hit its stride. The PS3 currently has maybe one or 2 exclusive games for it announced that got me excited, but I can't wait to see a new God of War or a new game from the ICO creators on the Playstation 3. Not to mention Sucker Punch, Naughty Dog, and the overhyped Killzone. Counting the PS3 out yet is a little pre-mature.

In my humble opinion, I don't think there will be a clear winner this time around. My projection has the market divided between Sony and Microsoft's consoles, with the Wii coming third (when the hype about the new controls die down, so will its sales I believe).

[Solid Snake]

Everybody here is not as rich as you bub.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Everybody here is not as rich as you bub.

Nor are they teenagers like you bub. The average gamer is in his/her 20's so most of them have jobs.

[Solid Snake]

No kiddo, I'm not a teenager .Oh and "average gamer" (whatever that is) doesn't have to spend his hard earned cash on all of the 3 consoles (like you did) or on a console just because it has a Blu Ray player.Besides everybody gets a different payment so that means some of us (unlike you) have to work longer to earn the cash the others earn in a month.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

If I ama a teenager then you nmust be a thumb sucking baby.Well it's time to go to bed kiddo.Oh and "average gamer" (whatever that is) doesn't have to spend his hard earned cash on all of the 3 consoles (like you did) or on a console just because it has a Blu Ray player.

I see they haven't taught you what average means in high school yet?
Average means you take a sample of gamers, a small portion of the whole gaming population who buy games and do the following:

SUM(all their ages)/ the sample number. We call this an average or the mean in statistics. You will learn it when you go to college.