[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by Curt

I'd disagree! I'd say both are designed for the containment of innocent masses. The concept of both is wrong and there is NO difference. Forcibly imposed division is NEVER the answer.

Well, if I were a Palestinian I'd choose the wall over a big tank crushing my house anytime. And if I were an Israeli I'd choose the wall over being blown into pieces when waiting for the bus anytime.

Both sides are idiots, and if these idiots can't live together in one country then build that wall. Just don't kill innocent people.

--Erwin

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by Erwin_Br

Both sides are idiots, and if these idiots can't live together in one country then build that wall. Just don't kill innocent people.

But they are building it deep into Palestine's territory.

[Ninja Dodo]

At this rate I doubt we'll see peace in the middle east in my life time.

We won't see it in Sharon's lifetime anyway...

[Titan]

The fence has two main objectives. It is being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel. It is being built to pressure the Palestinians to reign in the terrorists. The latter objective, if successful, will lead to serious negotiations between the two peoples.

An aside; Sharon may not be long for leadership. A bribery scandal may soon bring him down. If this event comes to pass and doesn't result in the fence being dismantled by a more liberal Israeli government, then the liklihood of negotiations goes up.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Titan

The fence has two main objectives. It is being built to keep suicide bombers out of Israel.

If Israel were really building the fence to keep out suicide bombers, the only effective way would be to build the fence around Israel, expelling every Palestinian that resides there. There are too many other points of entry into Israel if extremist Palestinians wanted to bomb them. And the fact that the security fence has cut off families and denied farmers access to their land can only add to the potential problems.

It is being built to pressure the Palestinians to reign in the terrorists. The latter objective, if successful, will lead to serious negotiations between the two peoples.

You don't successfully pressure a people by subjucating them, denying them access to their own land, or killing their citizens. All that does is infuriates and humiliates the people more, leading to more potential terrorists.

As was seen in Northern Ireland, after 30-odd years of troubles, it was only the coming together around the negotiating table and the relaxing of military presence that eventually pushed the process in the right direction (after many hiccups).

Only patient, peaceful negotiation and a willingness to meet each other half way, both giving up some concessions, will help to solve the problems that have plagued the whole Palestinian/Israeli issue.

A terrorist organization cannot gain much support when they are the only ones seen to be acting violently, and Israel are in a much stronger position to put a stop to all the madness than the Palestinians.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Curt

If Israel were really building the fence to keep out suicide bombers, the only effective way would be to build the fence around Israel, expelling every Palestinian that resides there. There are too many other points of entry into Israel if extremist Palestinians wanted to bomb them. And the fact that the security fence has cut off families and denied farmers access to their land can only add to the potential problems.

The fence around Gaza has been effective at stopping bombers from there.

You don't successfully pressure a people by subjucating them, denying them access to their own land, or killing their citizens. All that does is infuriates and humiliates the people more, leading to more potential terrorists.

The other Arab nations have long subjected the Palestinians and were not much interested in a homeland for them. The killers of innocent citizens begins with the Palestinians. The Israelis killing of citizens is via collateral damage in retailation, not as original intent.

Only patient, peaceful negotiation and a willingness to meet each other half way, both giving up some concessions, will help to solve the problems that have plagued the whole Palestinian/Israeli issue.

This will happen only when the Palestinian terrorists cease to be a factor. Until then they will sabotage any perceived progress being made along these lines.

A terrorist organization cannot gain much support when they are the only ones seen to be acting violently, and Israel are in a much stronger position to put a stop to all the madness than the Palestinians.

Logic would say you should be correct on your first point here. So far however there is little evidence this is the case. The only way your second point is correct is through massive military action and this would unleash a torrent of other problems.

The fence is at least worth a try. The Arab peoples have a healthy respect for those nations that do what they threaten to do.

Forgive my clumsiness with multiple quotes. I haven't figured out how to make them work exactly.

[Ninja Dodo]

Titan, don't put the / in the first quote tag.

The Israelis killing of citizens is via collateral damage in retailation, not as original intent.

How do you know that though?

The point is that Sharon and his lackeys are nothing but a bunch of clueless fascist idiots. I'm tired of people always blaming the Palestinians for everything. Although, I must admit, it is a nice catchphrase... "It was Arafat."

- "Why do they keep sending suicide bombers?"
- "It was Arafat."

- "Where are Saddam's weapons of mass destruction?"
- "It was Arafat."

- "Why do bad things happen?"
- "Arafat."

Aaaah....

Israeli soldier (as he's driving a digging machine into the front door): "Now you be a good Palestinian and don't blow up any more innocent Israelis, okay? Oh and sorry about shooting your kids... my bad."


Of course the suicide bombers are wrong to do what they do and of course they should stop doing it... but anyone who thinks terrorizing them and their families back is going to help - ... well, I'm lost for words.

For every house smashed, friend shot... the Israelis create themselves a new terrorist.

[Titan]

Thank you Ninja, for the tip on the quotes.

[DomStLeger]

Originally Posted by Titan

The fence around Gaza has been effective at stopping bombers from there.

That's interesting logic, how did they come to that conclusion? Bombings down 10%? Do they survey bombers to find out which area they came from? My point is it's hard to prove that, it's a specious arguement.

Originally Posted by Titan

The other Arab nations have long subjected the Palestinians and were not much interested in a homeland for them. The killers of innocent citizens begins with the Palestinians. The Israelis killing of citizens is via collateral damage in retailation, not as original intent.

I find it quite appalling that you implicitly absolve the Israeli's of blame. Both sides are as bad as each other, though one side isn't armed to the teeth with modern American weaponry.

Originally Posted by Titan

The fence is at least worth a try. The Arab peoples have a healthy respect for those nations that do what they threaten to do.

The Fence will be a disaster and cause much more terrorism. Why? Not least because of the perception that it is a "land grab", with the fence extending miles into Palestinian territory around a number of illegal settlements.

What is really needed is pressure from the international community (or more specifically the USA who have alot of influence over both sides). The wall needs to be stopped, and both sides forced back around the table. Also pressure on the Palestinian Authoritiy to adopt something more closely resembling true democracy needs to continue.

Curt is correct, if you want to undermine terrorism you need to undermine the causes. That means getting round the table for negotiations and both sides making some concessions to help get what they need and want.

[Marek]

Originally Posted by Erwin_Br

Well, one difference would be the fact that the Jews didn't blow themselves up in buses and restaurants with innovent German civillains.

Erm, what the heck do jews have to do with the Berlin wall?

Let's not forget that Israel has an extremely powerful and modern army, whereas the Palestinians don't. People don't just blow themselves up for shits and giggles. Committing suicide is not exactly the first thing that comes to anyone's mind, so they must be pretty damn desperate. Yes, it's really fucked up what's going on with all those suicide bombers, and innocent people are dying everywhere, but it's not like they have the means to wage a conventional war.

[Stinger]

Even despite the fact that I generally avoid Chit-Chat as though my life depended on it, I found this too interesting to pass up.

1. Your ideal theoretical candidate. (100%)
2. Bush, President George W. - Republican (70%)
3. Kucinich, Rep. Dennis, OH - Democrat (52%)
4. Kerry, Senator John, MA - Democrat (52%)
5. Edwards, Senator John, NC - Democrat (47%)
6. Gephardt, Rep. Dick, MO - Democrat (40%)
7. Libertarian Candidate (39%)
8. Lieberman, Senator Joe, CT - Democrat (38%)
9. Dean, Gov. Howard, VT - Democrat (35%)
10. Green Party Candidate (27%)
11. Sharpton, Reverend Al - Democrat (24%)
12. Clark, Retired General Wesley K., AR - Democrat (23%)
13. Moseley-Braun, Former Senator Carol, IL - Democrat (23%)
14. Phillips, Howard - Constitution (23%)
15. LaRouche, Lyndon H. Jr. - Democrat (22%)
16. Socialist Candidate (22%)
17. Hagelin, Dr. John - Natural Law (12%)

There's a few things I'm really surprised with--especially the order of the Democrats. Seeing as how I'm obviously a right-wing conservative, I never would have expected Kucinich and Kerry to be my top two Dems...and then see Al f'in Sharpton ahead of Wesley Clark.

Btw, for those who are thinking George W. Bush is the most egregious example of extreme right-wing politics, just take a look at Howard Phillips and the Constitution party sometime. Their general philosophy is to abolish all taxes and abolish all welfare, and equilibrium will take care of the rest. I mean, I'm a Christian Republican and I'd vote for Howard Dean before one of those guys. There is a point where you can reconcile your faith and your beliefs with rationality and intelligence.

I still can't believe I scored above 50% with John Kerry...my gun-totin' Libertarian relatives will disown me...

- Evan

[Titan]

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

That's interesting logic, how did they come to that conclusion? Bombings down 10%? Do they survey bombers to find out which area they came from? My point is it's hard to prove that, it's a specious arguement.

Israeli intellignce can easily determine where bombers come from after the fact.

I find it quite appalling that you implicitly absolve the Israeli's of blame. Both sides are as bad as each other, though one side isn't armed to the teeth with modern American weaponry.

While I believe some if not most, of truth is gray and not black or white, this doen't mean all of truth is gray. To equate the Palestinian terrorists organizations with the Israeli democratic government, is frankly a particularly pernicious use of the moral equivalency arguments which imply rational thought is impossible.

The Fence will be a disaster and cause much more terrorism. Why? Not least because of the perception that it is a "land grab", with the fence extending miles into Palestinian territory around a number of illegal settlements.

I agree with you that the settlements are a 'land grab' and Sharon is no fan of mine. We'll see whether the fence lowers the number of suicide attacks.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by Titan

To equate the Palestinian terrorists organizations with the Israeli democratic government, is frankly a particularly pernicious use of the moral equivalency arguments which imply rational thought is impossible.

That's quite an implication...

[DomStLeger]

Originally Posted by Titan

While I believe some if not most, of truth is gray and not black or white, this doen't mean all of truth is gray. To equate the Palestinian terrorists organizations with the Israeli democratic government, is frankly a particularly pernicious use of the moral equivalency arguments which imply rational thought is impossible.

A blind belief in the moral superiority of democratic government is equally dangerous. If we're talking morals, then I don't think it's unfair to say that some of the actions carried out by the israeli government have been just as morally reprehensible as the actions of palestinian terrorist organisations such as Hamas. For example, Israel has used some of the modern weaponry at their disposal, such as helicopter gunships, smart missiles etc against suspected terrorist target. Unfortunately the best place for terrorists to hide is in highly populated areas. So when the Israeli government uses such tactics against terrorists, in built up regions such as Gaza, they know it is highly likely that innocents will die too.

They can forsee civilian death, yet they carry out their actions anyway. In my eyes that makes them just as morally corrupt as the terrorist organisations. The difference between intending civilian death and forseeing it is very small indeed. That is why I cannot accept the "colateral damage" arguement, and that is why I firmly believe both sides are as bad as each other.

[Curt]

Interesting article on the US-Israel connection (or rather that of the Bush-Sharon regimes) on the World Socialist Website, expanding on an article printed in The Guardian newspaper in the UK: here

Key excerpt:

Before the invasion (of Iraq) last March, US forces were sent to Israel to train for urban warfare at an IDF mockup of a Palestinian town in the Negev desert. US officers also reportedly reviewed Israeli tactics in the brutal assault on the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin the previous year.

There is an unmistakable irony in Washington’s turn to the Israeli “experts” on repression. Within the last month, four former heads of Shin Bet, Israel’s internal security agency that directs so-called anti-terrorist operations, as well as the current chief of staff of the Israeli military have all warned that the iron-fisted repression employed in the occupied territories by the right-wing Zionist regime of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is preparing a social and military catastrophe.

So-called “targeted assassinations” that almost invariably claim the lives of large numbers of bystanders and collective punishment—including the mass destruction of homes and the use of roadblocks and curfews—have only increased the Palestinians’ hatred of the occupation and led to mass support for acts of resistance.

There are many in Sharons' government opposed to his heavy handedness, it would seem.

[Ninja Dodo]

Well, Titan, I see you've skillfully managed to avoid adressing any of the points made in my little rant.

While I believe some if not most, of truth is gray and not black or white, this doen't mean all of truth is gray. To equate the Palestinian terrorists organizations with the Israeli democratic government, is frankly a particularly pernicious use of the moral equivalency arguments which imply rational thought is impossible.

A most intruiging bending of morals there: "Things aren't black and white... except with the Palestinians!"... Frankly, I can't see how you can call an organization, run by an ex-general who stood by and let great numbers of innocent civilians be massacred under his nose... one that systematically terrorizes an entire people with modern warfare and between breaths takes bribes left and right, a legitimate government!

If you are talking about Hamas and other militant groups not qualifying as 'governmental' I would agree, but if you call the PLO a terrorist organization it only shows how truly biased you are.

Besides, Mossad is as much a terrorist group as Hamas. The only difference is that they're better organized and equipped. Well, that and they have US backing.

[BacardiJim]

Would it be pointless to point out that the PLO was, in fact, democratically elected as their representatives by the Palestinian people after the 1967 war?

[Titan]

Dom - True moral revolutionaries would not hide among the populace bringing death to innocents when their enemy retaliates. While I can agree you have a point about the 'intending' and 'forseeing' leaving little distinction between them, I also believe in 'an eye for an eye'. When Israel offered the eye of negotiation lead by Clinton just before he left office, Arafat offered the eye of the intifada.

Dom and Ninja - Hamas, not the PLO, was the terrorist organization I had in mind. Also if Sharon succumbs to the bribery scandal, that in itself makes my point of the Israeli government being much more than Sharon, while the PLO is no more than Arafat.

Ninja - You are the king of black and white thinking in many respects. I am fairer to Palestinians than you are to Bush, for instance.

[Ninja Dodo]

Titan, have you considered that perhaps the PLO does not have a great degree of control over just what exactly Hamas and other such groups get up to?

Ninja - You are the king of black and white thinking in many respects. I am fairer to Palestinians than you are to Bush, for instance.

Haha... there is nothing to be fair about with Bush. He's a brainless puppet... and those puppeteers are pretty damn scary, whichever way you look at it. I'm sorry, but there really is no excusing the complete horror of a president that that man is.

Just for the record, I know I'm biased. Everyone is to some extent. But I make an effort to justify that bias with valid arguments.

... and again, apart from reassuring that you weren't talking about the PLO, you don't really make any counter-arguments to what I have said.

[DomStLeger]

Originally Posted by Titan

Dom - True moral revolutionaries would not hide among the populace bringing death to innocents when their enemy retaliates. While I can agree you have a point about the 'intending' and 'forseeing' leaving little distinction between them, I also believe in 'an eye for an eye'. When Israel offered the eye of negotiation lead by Clinton just before he left office, Arafat offered the eye of the intifada.

Whoever said "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" I think had it right. But I agree with you that Arafat also shoulders alot of the responsibility for this current mess. And I also hope Sharon succumbs to this scandel, because the situation would benefit greatly if at least one side had a more moderate leadership. Sadly the palestinian leadership isn't as representative as it should be.