[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Skinky, marriage (or any long term relationship) is not about sex.

[Squinky]

Uh, yeah, I thought I implied as much.

So, what is it about?

[tsa]

Me and my friends talked a lot about that, and frankly, nobody knows. The best description of what marriage is about is maybe: it's a public confirmation of the love you have for each other. But I guess you could say the same about living together.

[Merricat]

Squinky, in my frame of reference, a marriage is not defined by contractual obligations. Marriage is about partnership and yes, a lifelong commitment--obviously, not everyone is up for that, but there's the rub. I mean, anyone can get married; the trick is to marry the right person.
In my experience, the right person is the one who shares your values. Will and I trust each other implicitly, we are honest about what we feel and what we want, and we make each other laugh every single day. We are on the same team--we don't criticize each other in front of family, friends, or strangers, and we want each other to have whatever we want or need. We sacrifice for each other. We argue. We cooperate. We are constantly juggling the power distribution. We admire each other immensely. And we play together.

We also didn't have a child until we'd been married five years and were sure our relationship was secure.

I absolutely believe that you have to love yourself in order to attract people who will love you in the way that you deserve (That's the general "you," not you, Squinky, personally). People who find their self-esteem in the arms of another person are devastated and without recourse when the source of their self-esteem dumps them. In other words, don't settle for less than what you want in a person. If cooperation and sacrifice are one-sided, if you don't get back what you put in, if it's all about one person and rarely about the other, the relationship is not going to work.

So that's what I think. I hope it makes sense to you.

[Jelena]

Squinks
I live in a country where it's perfectly acceptable to live together with children without being married. Mr J and I actually didn't get married until our youngest child was one year old. We decided to marry as a confirmation of our relationship (We had a small wedding with our closest family and no friends. They didn't even know about it) and to get some legal benefits as well. There are laws that covers some parts of the "living together" relationship, but being married is safer.

I think you have an accurate observation in your initial post on this topic. Marriage is imho not about personal fulfillment rather a teamwork that definitely has its ups and downs. Not everyone is capable or even interested in that sort of commitment and realizes it eventually and divorce. And the same goes for relationships without marriage. But in that case the procedure of splitting up is a lot easier. Nevertheless nowadays it's quite trendy to get married among Swedish couples in their late 20s. The weddings tend to look more and more like "American weddings" and cost fortunes. So that might also be a reason to get married: everyone does it so why shouldn't we?

[Merricat]

Originally Posted by Jelena

The weddings tend to look more and more like "American weddings" and cost fortunes.

My "American wedding" did not cost a fortune. We had a candlelight ceremony in a boathouse, with a judge presiding. I thought it was quite beautiful and moving, nonetheless.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Merricat

My "American wedding" did not cost a fortune. We had a candlelight ceremony in a boathouse, with a judge presiding. I thought it was quite beautiful and moving, nonetheless.

That sounds beautiful. Did you manage not to cry in such a full of feeling atmosphere? I'm asking since even though I very seldom cry at the movies or any other moving occasion I did cry during my wedding at a point where the wording touched me deeply. And I do understand that not every American couple choose expensive, colour coordinated, seven brides maids and ushers-weddings. But a lot of the current wedding trends going on over here origins from North America. That's why I chose such an expression.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Merricat

My "American wedding" did not cost a fortune. We had a candlelight ceremony in a boathouse, with a judge presiding. I thought it was quite beautiful and moving, nonetheless.

Ooh, that sounds lovely!

[Merricat]

It was lovely, Squinky. Thanks.

I know just what you mean, Jelena; excess is pretty much an American tradition--but for us, that excess would have cheapened the fullness of feeling, as you so eloquently put it. Our wedding party consisted of just us, with my sister standing up for me, and Will's brother standing up for him. I managed not to cry until we came to the vows, but as I was coming down the stairs (one of our friends was playing Satie on the piano) Will's eyes welled up, and he stayed fairly watery throughout the ceremony. It was very sweet.
Awwww. I'm going to go kiss my husband now.

[Merricat]

So the more I consider the meaning of marriage, the more apparent it is to me that it's difficult to define because it means something different for everyone. Marriage started off as a way to ensure bloodlines, protect finances, and create alliances, and it's probably still done for those reasons by any number of people. I have many friends who are gay, and for most of them, men and women, just that fact that it's illegal for them to marry for love in the U.S. makes the matter significant (interestingly, my gay men friends are more enthusiastic about marriage than my gay women friends).

I'm certain that my parents had a much different concept of what marriage should be; my mother was definitely not an equal partner in their relationship.


But ultimately, the legality of the bond guarantees some very important rights, including the right to make life and death decisions, right to property, et al, because yes, without the contractual obligation, there are families who would swoop in like vultures if they thought they had a chance.

So I guess it's important.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Merricat

I'm certain that my parents had a much different concept of what marriage should be; my mother was definitely not an equal partner in their relationship.

That doesn't seem to be the case with my parents; they seem pretty equal. I mean, my mom's a doctor, so I completely and utterly grew up with the idea that a woman can be whatever she wants to be. That said, they're still very conservative in many respects.

[Melanie68]

Deirdra, have you ever watched When Harry Met Sally?

This clip is from the end. If you don't mind having the movie somewhat spoiled, this is a great one about deciding to get married:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRhCTnkd3vM

It always makes me cry.

[Squinky]

I'm a sucker for sap like this, Mel, even despite the fact that I've been taught to have a healthy sense of cynicism towards romantic comedy endings. Of course I've seen it.

[Melanie68]

It's definitely a happy ending. But it's a well-deserved happy ending. It doesn't come cheaply (if that makes sense). The whole damn movie is brilliant.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

I'm fascinated by the viewpoints from many western Europeans that are amazed by our American obsession with marriage. So many of them seem to do well with long term relationships, families and children, long lives without bothering with the sanctity of marriage.

[Merricat]

I don't think Americans are obsessed with marriage, I think they are obsessed with weddings, which are, as Jelena correctly surmised, a status symbol--like driving a Lexus or spending your holiday at St. Bart's.

I believe people should live according to their own lights. If you don't want to marry your girlfriend, well, no one is forcing you to do that. And if she doesn't like it, well, she's probably not the woman for you. Things have a way of working out, don't you think?

[stepurhan]

Marriage is being with someone who makes you happy, just by being there.

It will be 10 years for me next January.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Marriage is being with someone who makes you happy, just by being there.

But... but I can think of a number of people this applies to! My younger sister, some of my cousins, friends, coworkers, Ron Gilbert... does that mean I'm married to them? Eww!

[tsa]

Iknow a few people with whom I'm happy to be with. I wouldn't want to marry them, and as far as I know I'm not gay either. So Step's definition is a bit too broad I guess

[Merricat]

I like the Travel Test of True Love, which requires spending 98% of your time with someone as you journey from one town to the next, with no advance reservations and a limited amount of money. If you get through Day Three without wanting to kill that person, if you wake up on Day Four and are happy to see him or her, you should strongly consider marriage. Unless you're related; that's icky no matter what.