[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by EvoG

I dont want to appear arrogant, but unless I misunderstood you, I dont see anything inherent to the games you've described that are outside the reach of an indie. What exactly did you mean?

Indies are usually small teams of people who don't have the expertise of the large teams developing good graphics, especially 3D graphics. Within large teams are subspecialists who have experience with motion capture, synchronizing voice to lip movement, and sound and music synchronization. Nor do they have access to the better engines for development, which can be costly. I was reading an article earlier tonight about Brian Moriarty (Loom), and his theories on harmony in story-telling. Good plot exposition is an art, and few indies possess a writer of this caliber.

I certainly wasn't attacking you or your experience. Just that with a small team, you have to wear many hats, and somewhere along the line, some part of the quality must suffer because of this, IMHO.

FGM-Lyn

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

To me, if somebody makes an adventure game, it's not about money, but that they care about what they're doing. I think that tends to yeild better games. Not always, but mostly the case. If AG's were to become highly popular, we would just get a bunch of junk that would tarnish the name of adventure games.

You're right, though it is about the money to some degree, but not entirely. A better way to put it would be that when the designer cares about his game first, and the money second, you'll get a better product. In my case if I wanted only money, I'd get a job at a major animation studio and be done with it with a 9 - 5 job(figuratively speaking). We all need money to live, and if I can get away with making enough money to do just that while doing what I love most, then its win win. EA on the other hand is ONLY about the money, 100%.

So you like the state of AG's now though they can be better? What if said state included more solid games like Lucasarts or Sierra gave us? Wouldn't that be even better? As it is, the only adventure game in the past few years...well no, since GF, that I've been genuinely interested in was Wanted, and I just didn't jive with the story or acting in the demo(that and that terrible slowdown when examining items). I recently started up TLJ but got a tad bored...and am now play BASS(awkward dialogue at times but interesting nonetheless, and it desperately needs either running or quick exit). Otherwise it all appears to be Myst clones. Drab, dreary prerendered Myst clones, and I think I'm the only person on Earth who doesn't care for Myst. I understand Syberia was terribly successful but I didn't see the appeal(seriously someone tell me why it seems everyone bought that game). I plan to fire it up again to make sure it isn't simply a slow starter...but boy, I wonder.

Cheers

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by EvoG

You're right, though it is about the money to some degree, but not entirely. A better way to put it would be that when the designer cares about his game first, and the money second, you'll get a better product. In my case if I wanted only money, I'd get a job at a major animation studio and be done with it with a 9 - 5 job(figuratively speaking). We all need money to live, and if I can get away with making enough money to do just that while doing what I love most, then its win win. EA on the other hand is ONLY about the money, 100%.

Heh, someone has to pay the rent/mortgage, car insurance, groceries, utility bills, health insurance........and also be able to actually enjoy living.

So you like the state of AG's now though they can be better? What if said state included more solid games like Lucasarts or Sierra gave us? Wouldn't that be even better? As it is, the only adventure game in the past few years...well no, since GF, that I've been genuinely interested in was Wanted, and I just didn't jive with the story or acting in the demo(that and that terrible slowdown when examining items). I recently started up TLJ but got a tad bored...and am now play BASS(awkward dialogue at times but interesting nonetheless, and it desperately needs either running or quick exit). Otherwise it all appears to be Myst clones. Drab, dreary prerendered Myst clones, and I think I'm the only person on Earth who doesn't care for Myst. I understand Syberia was terribly successful but I didn't see the appeal(seriously someone tell me why it seems everyone bought that game). I plan to fire it up again to make sure it isn't simply a slow starter...but boy, I wonder.

Well, somebody has to say it: ADVENTURE GAMES RIGHT NOW ARE FREAKING BORING AS HELL. There, now I feel better . Rather, they're boring to the average non-fan. I loved Syberia (I have my reasons ), but even then there were times when I would just stare at the screen and say, "Goddamn, isn't there anything else besides that one hotspot I can interact with?" As is, many of these kinds of games make me feel as if I'm seeing their worlds through glass. There's something missing.....that sense of immediacy, of involvement, a sense of dynamic....

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

Indies are usually small teams of people who don't have the expertise of the large teams developing good graphics, especially 3D graphics. Within large teams are subspecialists who have experience with motion capture, synchronizing voice to lip movement, and sound and music synchronization. Nor do they have access to the better engines for development, which can be costly. I was reading an article earlier tonight about Brian Moriarty (Loom), and his theories on harmony in story-telling. Good plot exposition is an art, and few indies possess a writer of this caliber.

I certainly wasn't attacking you or your experience. Just that with a small team, you have to wear many hats, and somewhere along the line, some part of the quality must suffer because of this, IMHO.

FGM-Lyn

Oh no! I hope I didn't appear defensive! I was genuinely curious what exactly you meant, only that I too have read time and again how the 'garage developer' is an extinct species, and I think that lights that fire under me. But you did hit one thing on the head that has been the crux of my point regarding production value...art. Our whole team, though tiny, is made up of industry professionals as it is, so art is our expertise. I personally specialize in animation, lip sync and facial animation/acting, just as you pointed out. See this is one of the reasons I'm so excited about settling on doing an AG amongst the other designs we were going through. We had an interesting story and wanted to exploit what we do best, ideally producing a fun product in a shorter period of time (relative to the other broader selection of designs including a hardcore RPG). AG's inherently, and this isn't some brilliant observation, are not at all about the tech, and are arguably 95% art. Bring together talented artists, writers, musicians, voice talent, but a mediocre programmer, and you can still have a kick ass AG with tremendous production value.

Ultimately you're absolutely right about the many hats of the small indie, so its easy and perfecty normal for anyone and everyone to be skeptical. All the more reason for me to excited about making this work.

Cheers

[SakSquash]

Originally Posted by EvoG

You're right, though it is about the money to some degree, but not entirely. A better way to put it would be that when the designer cares about his game first, and the money second, you'll get a better product. In my case if I wanted only money, I'd get a job at a major animation studio and be done with it with a 9 - 5 job(figuratively speaking). We all need money to live, and if I can get away with making enough money to do just that while doing what I love most, then its win win. EA on the other hand is ONLY about the money, 100%.

So you like the state of AG's now though they can be better? What if said state included more solid games like Lucasarts or Sierra gave us? Wouldn't that be even better? As it is, the only adventure game in the past few years...well no, since GF, that I've been genuinely interested in was Wanted, and I just didn't jive with the story or acting in the demo(that and that terrible slowdown when examining items). I recently started up TLJ but got a tad bored...and am now play BASS(awkward dialogue at times but interesting nonetheless, and it desperately needs either running or quick exit). Otherwise it all appears to be Myst clones. Drab, dreary prerendered Myst clones, and I think I'm the only person on Earth who doesn't care for Myst. I understand Syberia was terribly successful but I didn't see the appeal(seriously someone tell me why it seems everyone bought that game). I plan to fire it up again to make sure it isn't simply a slow starter...but boy, I wonder.

Cheers

Sure, there can be improvments, but that can be said about ANYTHING! I love pudding, and sure, they could package it in kegs, but they don't, and i'm satisfied with snack packs. Whured? I'm just glad there are adventure games, and many of them are quite decent.

As for your myst clone theory, what do you mean by that? Any adventure games that's in first person and you have to solve puzzles? That's kind of a generalization, so i'm sure that's not what you meant. Enlighten me? Btw, just because something is a copy, doesn't make it bad. Mafia copies GTA, but it's still a great game.

[samIamsad]

Art: Check. Story: Check. But don't forget the gameplay. Most nowadays AG developers don't get that quite right, it seems. It's not just about telling a *story* with beautiful visuals. At the end of the day, it's about playing a *game*.

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

Sure, there can be improvments, but that can be said about ANYTHING! I love pudding, and sure, they could package it in kegs, but they don't, and i'm satisfied with snack packs. Whured? I'm just glad there are adventure games, and many of them are quite decent.

As for your myst clone theory, what do you mean by that? Any adventure games that's in first person and you have to solve puzzles? That's kind of a generalization, so i'm sure that's not what you meant. Enlighten me? Btw, just because something is a copy, doesn't make it bad. Mafia copies GTA, but it's still a great game.

Well generalizing is shaky at best so let me clarify. Mafia is an awesome game. I'm the last person to denounce games that copy gameplay, but go ask Intrepid as well, he expressed as much in his last post. Its one thing to use high production value and make a game that just happens to play similarly to another (mafia vs. gta) and then there are clones...games that have very little genuine production value looking to piggy back the success of another product. I have absolutely no problem with great games mimicking gameplay as long as they bring their own identity. Everything is a clone of something that came before sure...and thats not what Intrepid and I are talking about...blatant attempts to recreate success without tanigble quality....thats where the term 'clone' applies. For what its worth, one of our more ambitious and significant game designs is essentially like GTA. Full urban(and rural) streaming environment with non-linear gameplay and story progression with tons of exploration, minigames and whatnot, all set in a near future fiction world. Odds are it will be our next game granted we do well enough with our first.

Oh, and yes while anything can be improved upon, pudding already rocks.


Cheers!

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

Art: Check. Story: Check. But don't forget the gameplay. Most nowadays AG developers don't get that quite right, it seems. It's not just about telling a *story* with beautiful visuals. At the end of the day, it's about playing a *game*.

Amen. Before we settled on an adventure title, all our games were action adventures, so gameplay and control/interface design has been my focus for the longest time and theres no reason for it not to continue with this game. Developers are STILL getting 3rd person camera control all wrong despite what, 10 years now of complaining about bad 3rd person cameras?!

In the end it IS about playing...couldn't agree more.


Cheers

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by EvoG

I have absolutely no problem with great games mimicking gameplay as long as they bring their own identity. Everything is a clone of something that came before sure...and thats not what Intrepid and I are talking about...blatant attempts to recreate success without tanigble quality....thats where the term 'clone' applies.

Right. The game can borrow techniques and general ideas from another game that enjoyed success because of those things, but that game doing the borrowing had better integrate those things into its own signature style and make it look fresh and desirable. Even better, take those borrowed things and improve on them; it's a kind of critique and re-assessment.

That's the difference between a pudding recipe that uses milk, and using that same recipe but instead using cream for a much richer flavour.

[eyeresist]

Originally Posted by EvoG

...BASS ... desperately needs either running or quick exit.

You should be able to set the game speed in the menu page. You may need to slow it down again at the end of the VR section, and in the final 'room'.

[fov]

Welcome to the forum, eyeresist!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Okay, fov!! You are not gonna just pop in this thread, say hi, and run away so easily!! So what do YOU think about what happened to the adventure game in the past several years? Why do you think it's all about Halo 2, The Sims, and Half-Life 2? Why don't titles like Moment of Silence and Syberia have a prominent place amont them?

[frozenhamster]

i think you all are totally wrong. You people have some crazy idea that people are stupid enough to not want to play adventure games simply because of bad marketing. Although most people are idiots, most are not stupid. They know what they like. They like to run around and interact with things at a fast pace.

So why can't adventure games fall under that category? They are missing the fast paced portion of the puzzle. Let's not forget that there was a time when adventure games were the most popular games on the market. the reason they fell from that place is because of simple market demographics. At the time when AGs were most popular the types of people playing games was very different. The people who played on PCs were those that were truely interested in the idea of computers as a whole (not just power). Those same people (us) are the type that are intrigued by an engaging story with which we can discover a whole new world or feel as though we are at the helm of a wonderful adventure with pirates and tentacles.

Let's face it. The gamers that exist now are the ones that are either too young to remember the adventure genre in its hayday or they are the ones who were uninterested in figuring out the complexities of a computer. The reason FPS has become the leading genre is to do with the fact that the gaming worl has been overtaken by those who realized that games weren't only for nerds or little kids. You can actually play a fast paced game that you dont really have to think about at all.

FPS is the perfect game for those who were curious about gaming, but did not want to have to deal with its complexities. And another part of this is that you people have the strange idea that people want to be able to expore a vast world with endless opertunities. This is totally false. This is the one area where games marketing has really taken hold. they make people think that what they want is to explore, but they want no such thing. When a company advertizes a game with 'a huge world for you to discover and explore' they are really just saying 'the levels are bigger, harder, and have more people for you to kill so that you won't get bored, nor will you feel ripped off due to length'. People have simply been brainwashed.

It is simply because technology was created, allowing fo rthat type of mindless gaming that at the same time was not just simple childish arcading, that the adventure games began to die out.

Now that we have pinpointed the reason for collapse we must think of how to fix it. In short, the answer is it is impossible. The market percentage will never again be even close to what it once was in the early 90s.. But we must also understand that adventure gaming has subliminally seaped into modern gaming genres (except sports, and racing) and mostly in FPSs. Why? Because most of the people making these games are the ones that remember all of those elements that they loved from adventure games. Since it is now technologically possible to adapt these elements into other genres and maintain the same level of mass marketing it is done more often. What elements are those? An immersive story, great characters, interaction with other chracters and objects, and lastly, being forced to explore a world to figure out simple puzzles such as 'where is the exit to this damn place?'

The long answer to how to fix adventure games is to make them what people want. Fast-paced! Please remember that most people don't care what they are playing so long as it is immersive, well thought out, and fast paced. How are they to be made fast paced? Don't ask me. I am no Ron Gilbert type of revolutionary. What I can say is that all of you should take a look at the upcoming 24: The Game. I have been saying for a long time that making a 24 game (24 the TV show of course) is stupid. This is because it would have to basically be an adventure game in which you also shoot people from time to time. But what the makers seem to have done is make it a TPS in which 30% is adventure style (in the sense that you need to figure out what the best way to do things is). But what they add the the rush is the clock. There is always a clock at the bottom of the screen nagging you to finish up. if you dont finish up in time you fail or things get harder. The later would actually be even more fun. This is because we are predisposed to the idea of time. If someone sticks you in a situation in a game and tells you that you only have 20 minutes or else the game gets 5 times harder then there is a sudden motivation which makes the game seem even more fast paced.

Basically what needs to be done is to create a game which is primarilly adventure, but has a time limit at which point if you cross it you only know that things will get harder (this makes it slightly non-linear and means you never have to die). To top it off, a system should be created whereby you also ave to use you intellect to solve situational problems instead of only inventory based puzzles. An example would be if you needed to interogate some guy and he wouldn't answer because he is a fanatical terrorist you could use your intellect to speak to him in a certain personality, threaten his family maybe, or maybe even abuse him with a chair over the head a bit. This would not only be engaging, but fast paced, and would offer both hardcore adventure gamers a good time, and FPS type players a good time aswell.

Thanks for reading (if you didn't skip anything that is).

[samIamsad]

Hm, interesting thoughts. So it's all about the speed and complexity of the game? People bought "Doom" instead of the waaaaaaay superior and waaaaaaaay more immersive "System Shock". And "Diablo 2" instead of "Planescape: Torment". To some degree, it might be true. If it is... mainstream gaming is dead for me. Just dead. Dead! Hear? You? Me?

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Okay, fov!! You are not gonna just pop in this thread, say hi, and run away so easily!! So what do YOU think about what happened to the adventure game in the past several years? Why do you think it's all about Halo 2, The Sims, and Half-Life 2? Why don't titles like Moment of Silence and Syberia have a prominent place amont them?

Syberia was as successful as it could be, given its slow pace. I think that if every AG was as successful as Syberia (there's still an ad for Syberia on yahoo.fr's main page, for christ's sake), we'd all drinking Champagne on a daily basis.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Syberia was as successful as it could be, given its slow pace.

It didn't do as well as say "Runaway" or "Black Mirror" over here due to bad marketing in Germany. And even "Black Mirror" sold only about 30,000 copies in German speaking countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) during the first six months after its release. Picked this figure from an interview with dtp.

Then again, there's the differences in gaming culture, too. E.g. some German developers are having a hard time to get a publishing deal for the US because some of their games are said to be too complex at times for US gamers etc. Those interesting differences in gaming cultures were discussed here somewhere, as Trepsie told me in another thread.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

It didn't do as well as say "Runaway" or "Black Mirror" over here due to bad marketing in Germany. And even "Black Mirror" sold only about 30,000 copies in German speaking countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) during the first six months after its release. Picked this figure from an interview with dtp.

Then again, there's the differences in gaming culture, too. E.g. some German developers are having a hard time to get a publishing deal for the US because some of their games are said to be too complex at times for US gamers etc. Those interesting differences in gaming cultures were discussed here somewhere, as Trepsie told me in another thread.

Yes, that's true. So, let's take Runaway as an example, instead. It worked really well in France and Germany, as well as any other game, top hits excluded (but there aren't that many of them, and Runaway wasn't that brilliant to begin with).

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Runaway rarely even registered here in the States on the mainstream level. Only the most dedicated ag gamers knew about it. Why is that?

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Runaway rarely even registered here in the States on the mainstream level. Only the most dedicated ag gamers knew about it. Why is that?

Send an email to [email protected] and ask the recipient, what kind of effort he put into making gamers notice the game.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Runaway rarely even registered here in the States on the mainstream level. Only the most dedicated ag gamers knew about it. Why is that?

I guess it all comes back to bad marketing. Again...