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Old 04-04-2005, 05:34 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samIamsad
Maybe I just confused timers with action then.
OK. In that case you're forgiven.
But don't do it again.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:00 PM   #82
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Getting back to the Runaway subject... Trisynergy doesn't seem to do much in the way of marketing. This is pure speculation, but the wording on their website makes it sound more like they're an impersonal packaging / distribution service for clients than a publisher that gives a damn about adventure games (or any particular type of game). If Runaway was poorly marketed in the US, maybe that's why.

They published Legacy: Dark Shadows too, and did virtually nothing to promote it, either.

-emily
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:05 PM   #83
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Aw man.

But don't worry, I won't shoot you for it.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:11 PM   #84
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*snip*
Quote:
Originally Posted by samIamsad
Although some rare gems have been released in recent years, it seems that most adventure games want to be “just like Monkey Island” or “just like Myst”."
*snip*
Quote:
Originally Posted by samIamsad
I would go further into this and say, that the hardcore fan base of adventure games almost forces developers to just come up with the next clone of a clone of a clone. Devs listening to the crowd a little bit to much (?) in fear of alienating their core audience.

You know its possible that our game could be considered a clone, as its true, AG gamer's know what they want, and when it comes down to it, there are really only two major types of AG's...the Lucasarts type and the Myst type. Now referencing what Intrepid and I said about clones a few pages back, I dont see this as a bad thing, but if gamers are going to say they want more adventure games only to turn around and say they're not innovative or fresh, and are merely clones of what came before, it makes it a vicious circle that many developers just don't bother with.

As it is this is not my view...more of the same when the same is good, is perfectly fine. What makes one AG different from another is the story. Same for books, same for movies. Our game is nothing like Monkey Island(and CERTAINLY NOTHING like Myst on any level!! ) but will obviously share conventions with it...but then again those are the same conventions in dozens of games...so am I a clone?

Will I be derailed scared off by the a raging Catch22.tm?!


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Old 04-04-2005, 06:13 PM   #85
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Hm. But wasn't "The Longest Journey" successful in the US even though it was brought to the states by the same company that brought you "Runaway"? <Trep>Why is that?</Trep> Okay, it's a much better game, but...
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:15 PM   #86
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TLJ got relatively huge press here in the U.S.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:27 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoG

As it is this is not my view...more of the same when the same is good, is perfectly fine.

Of course, it is. It's just that almost every single adventure game *feels* exactely like that: "Hey, let's just make something like those old LA games and just forget about those 15 years of technological evolution. You know.. they were soooo great." And then the devs often fail, because the games then lack creativity. Style. And vision right from the start. Reading that your team has a professional writer involved, it's more likely your game won't end up feeling that way.

Maybe you should check out the whole article I referred to. It's a very interesting read. http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,318



Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoG
What makes one AG different from another is the story.
The - compared to other genres - rather strong emphasis on story and characterization is another "weakness" of the genre. At the moment. Why? I don't think it's that much of a secret that the gaming industry in general lacks capable writers. I don't say that they don't exist. I only say they are few and far between at best. And it most obviously shows in games with heavy emphasis on plot and characters. For some, like adventure games perhaps even in terms of quality of puzzle design and their integration into the gaming experience.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:38 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samIamsad
Of course, it is. It's just that almost every single adventure game *feels* exactely like that: "Hey, let's just make something like those old LA games and just forget about those 15 years of technological evolution. You know.. they were soooo great." And then the devs often fail, because the games then lack creativity.
Like I said before, they mimic the game, but they can never capture the soul. It's always been the soul that we respond to, that we fall in love with, that resonates in our hearts long after we beat the game.

And it's this soul that has migrated into Michel Ancel's Beyond Good & Evil, and Bioware's Knights Of The Old Republic.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:10 PM   #89
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Oh, and I don't necessarily mean that every single adventure game these days lacks a soul. There are some that manage to have that resonance. I've only played its demo, but I think Myst IV is one of them.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:15 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoG

You know its possible that our game could be considered a clone, as its true, AG gamer's know what they want, and when it comes down to it, there are really only two major types of AG's...the Lucasarts type and the Myst type.
Well, there is also the Gabriel Knight type, which is 3rd person, but not a humorous game like most of the LucasArts games were.

Quote:
Now referencing what Intrepid and I said about clones a few pages back, I dont see this as a bad thing, but if gamers are going to say they want more adventure games only to turn around and say they're not innovative or fresh, and are merely clones of what came before, it makes it a vicious circle that many developers just don't bother with.
Don't lump adventure gamers into one group. They have very diverse preferences and very diverse ideas about what they want in a game. You'll never satisfy all of them. Just make your game the best you can.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens
Like I said before, they mimic the game, but they can never capture the soul. It's always been the soul that we respond to, that we fall in love with, that resonates in our hearts long after we beat the game.
*sniff* I feel like I could.... I feel like I could.. crrrrr.. go to the toilet right now. Nah, couldn't have said it better. Very nice. But English isn't my mother tongue, so I took the easy way out.

The demo of Myst 4 made me interested in that game, too. I've never played a Myst game.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:25 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabapple
Well, there is also the Gabriel Knight type, which is 3rd person, but not a humorous game like most of the LucasArts games were.
Absolutely...I just mentioned two significant 'representative' types for AG's. When people think of AG's (or at least I do), they think of Lucasarts or Myst, with the old-school crowd like myself including Sierra...but yea you're right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by crabapple
Don't lump adventure gamers into one group. They have very diverse preferences and very diverse ideas about what they want in a game. You'll never satisfy all of them. Just make your game the best you can.
No no, as I said, generalizations are a dangerous thing, but I was speaking generally. . Compromise is NOT an option! Hehe...


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Old 04-04-2005, 07:25 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabapple
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoG
You know its possible that our game could be considered a clone, as its true, AG gamer's know what they want, and when it comes down to it, there are really only two major types of AG's...the Lucasarts type and the Myst type.
Well, there is also the Gabriel Knight type, which is 3rd person, but not a humorous game like most of the LucasArts games were.
There are also even more 'deviant' styles of adventures. Missing/In Memoriam is one of them (with due respect to its predecessor, Majestic). In fact it could easily be its own sub-genre entirely.

Quote:
Don't lump adventure gamers into one group. They have very diverse preferences and very diverse ideas about what they want in a game. You'll never satisfy all of them. Just make your game the best you can.
This is the decided path Ragnar Tornquist took with Dreamfall. In his passion to stay true to the idea of his way of storytelling and whatever gameplay emerges from it, he was hounded by fans who refused to hear about including player controlled action bits in the game, no matter how optional. Whether or not they'll arbitrarily consider Dreamfall an adventure game anymore is not of ultimate importance as much as the idea of the story compelling the player to push him/herself further through various kinds of challenges in order to see what happens next.
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Old 04-04-2005, 07:30 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samIamsad
The - compared to other genres - rather strong emphasis on story and characterization is another "weakness" of the genre. At the moment. Why? I don't think it's that much of a secret that the gaming industry in general lacks capable writers. I don't say that they don't exist. I only say they are few and far between at best. And it most obviously shows in games with heavy emphasis on plot and characters. For some, like adventure games perhaps even in terms of quality of puzzle design and their integration into the gaming experience.

Which is another reason for less story focused games...action is easier to create, as its something tangible and hands on when prototyping, and most importantly consistent. Once the gameplay works (driving, shooting, platforming) its a matter of putting together interesting levels to have said gameplay occur on and boom, you can have a pretty decent game. AG's require the story work and stay strong from start to finish, and thats a challenge especially when the entire point of the game is its story.
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Old 04-04-2005, 09:39 PM   #95
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I've seen in forums where some will say "I only play 1st person games", and others will say, "I only play 3rd person games". In this forum there seems to be a preponderance of Sierra and LA gamers. And I'm seeing the complaint about Myst vs MI clones, as if there aren't any other games out there. What about TLJ? What category does this fall into? Surely TLJ, Syberia I & II, JttCotE, Return to Mysterious Island, all 3rd person games can't possibly be put into the same category as MI clones. And Amerzone, though 1st person, feels more like Syberia than a Myst game. And what about Faust? Or the horror/ghost sub-genre - surely you don't consider them Myst-clones? I suppose that Timelapse should be considered a pre-Myst clone? And Obsidian, while at first glance could be considered a Myst clone, is such a unique game, it doesn't fit into any category. What about Sanitarium, who's that copying?

And what about the detective type - Post Mortem, CSI. Law & Order, Sherlock Holmes games, Ripper, Jack the Ripper, or the ND series? Don't you think you're taking the "clones of clones" theory too far? Or is it the games you like fall into only Myst or MI categories?

There will always be unique games like In Memoriam/Missing that won't fit into any categories. But give it a break guys, Myst or MI just aren't going to do it to categorize all adv games.

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Old 04-04-2005, 10:18 PM   #96
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But give it a break guys, Myst or MI just aren't going to do it to categorize all adv games.
Well I was equating it to visibility. For the mainstream when one thinks of adventure games they think of Myst or well almost any LA game.

To be perfectly honest you're right, I dont see any games cloning MI on any level. Then again what are we talking about? I assumed any point and click, 3rd person character adventure, such as Broken Sword or Runaway were MI equivalents in gameplay. And any pseudo-first-person non-character games with purely puzzle challenges were of the Myst or 7th Guest category. Generalizing like that, its easy to fit most games into one of these two major categories.

Now to talk of MI's bold flair and humor and wonderful animation, no, no game has come close IMHO. Myst, again, is a game I just never found special, so trying not to appear biased, but I dont think its a great stretch to see how many adventures are very similar in their drab prerendered backdrops and derivative mental challenges. Perhaps I've been led askew by my own ignorance, but this is what I see on the surface ( I never professed to play ALL adventure games, as I'm more for the colorful characters and stories ). I'm sure certain games(like you mentioned) have specific qualities being overlooked, but its not intentional, I mean, on some level this conversation IS about the mainstream perception, so think of how these games might look from the outside looking in.

BTW, I animated on Law and Order for Legacy Interactive, the first one if I recall, though briefly then my girlfriend took over.


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Old 04-04-2005, 10:50 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoG
Well I was equating it to visibility. For the mainstream when one thinks of adventure games they think of Myst or well almost any LA game.

To be perfectly honest you're right, I dont see any games cloning MI on any level. Then again what are we talking about? I assumed any point and click, 3rd person character adventure, such as Broken Sword or Runaway were MI equivalents in gameplay. And any pseudo-first-person non-character games with purely puzzle challenges were of the Myst or 7th Guest category. Generalizing like that, its easy to fit most games into one of these two major categories.

Now to talk of MI's bold flair and humor and wonderful animation, no, no game has come close IMHO. Myst, again, is a game I just never found special, so trying not to appear biased, but I dont think its a great stretch to see how many adventures are very similar in their drab prerendered backdrops and derivative mental challenges. Perhaps I've been led askew by my own ignorance, but this is what I see on the surface ( I never professed to play ALL adventure games, as I'm more for the colorful characters and stories ). I'm sure certain games(like you mentioned) have specific qualities being overlooked, but its not intentional, I mean, on some level this conversation IS about the mainstream perception, so think of how these games might look from the outside looking in.

BTW, I animated on Law and Order for Legacy Interactive, the first one if I recall, though briefly then my girlfriend took over.

Cheers
If you think "mainstream" adv gamers live for the MI next in line - then you need to go to JA+ or GB, both of which are much larger sites than this is and see just how rarely these games are even mentioned. Myst clone is often, though, but true Myst clones are not as numerous as would at first seem. Rhem, Aura, Alida, the Atlantis series, most of the Egypt ones, in fact most of The Adventure Company ones, would be in this category. But the ones I call the fantasy series - TLJ, Syberia I & II, JttCotE, RtMI, Amerzone (though 1st person) are definitely not of this type. Nor are all the detective, horror, ghost, etc. And while you may not consider them "mainstream", someone out there is buying these games. Perhaps you need to broaden your concept here.

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Old 04-04-2005, 11:12 PM   #98
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If you think "mainstream" adv gamers live for the MI next in line -
Didn't exactly say that; The odds of someone who doesn't play adventure games knowing about Monkey Island are much higher than them knowing of other titles. Nothing to do with their interest level in the genre.

Quote:
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And while you may not consider them "mainstream", someone out there is buying these games. Perhaps you need to broaden your concept here.
Selling copies and SELLING copies are the difference between niche and mainstream, so I'll stand by my concept. I'm not going to argue they sell though, and I'd like to think you caught on to my attitude towards this genre and the games I want to create, as nothing I said was derisive, but rather on the contrary, and only that the genre is stagnating a bit, again, in my opinion.

There's simply no denying that this particular type of game is not going to be a million seller on Xbox, but does it need to be? Of course not. The bottom line is the games are still viable when realistic budgets are set...and ironically, budgets dont restrict creativity and inspiration, which I find lacking in todays selections, which account for lack of interest. A boring game is a boring game, FPS, RTS or AG.

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Old 04-04-2005, 11:49 PM   #99
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I do find it interesting that in Adv Gamers forums, the genre is stagnating, yet on GB, and to a lesser extent, on JA+, the genre is seen to be growing again. The perception may be part of the categorization, however. What I mean by this, is the "I hate Myst vs. I love Myst" issue. If you see all the newer games as Myst clones, and you hated Myst, then you see the genre as clichéd and derivative. If not, you may see that there are many sub-genres that have some good games, and see the genre as growing. Some games that use licenses (Law & Order, ie.) tend to bring in some non-game players, on impulse buying.

As far as your comment about what games are known by non-gamers - the same is true in other genres. GTA, for example, is now known by many due to its negative press. How many non-gamers could name 3 FPS games? My stance on this is that as much as we criticize TAC, they have brought many into the gaming fold by reaching the impulse buyers. They have pretty boxes, use Egypt and Atlantis liberally, (both popular themes), and they sell in stores like Staples, or Office Max.

If you are aiming toward a non-gaming public, you might do well to emulate TAC in this respect. If, however, you are aiming toward a knowledgable adv gamer, then the forums is where to take your game info. If you are aiming toward gamers who don't usually play adv games, it is, IMHO an uphill battle you are facing. These people know Myst, but it is often not a positive view. They know MI, which generally is positive, but so are TLJ and Syberia, neither of which fall into the empty-world-with-obscure-puzzles realm, nor are they cartoony like MI.

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Old 04-05-2005, 12:03 AM   #100
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Quote:
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If you are aiming toward a non-gaming public, you might do well to emulate TAC in this respect. If, however, you are aiming toward a knowledgable adv gamer, then the forums is where to take your game info. If you are aiming toward gamers who don't usually play adv games, it is, IMHO an uphill battle you are facing. These people know Myst, but it is often not a positive view. They know MI, which generally is positive, but so are TLJ and Syberia, neither of which fall into the empty-world-with-obscure-puzzles realm, nor are they cartoony like MI.
I think I'm lost. My arguments are not to reflect my 'audience', though for what its worth I'm apparently aiming at those that loved the Lucasarts games in their adventuring prime. My arguments though DO reflect my opinions on why the genre is not going to see mega-million sellers, which there is, again, nothing wrong with. One though has nothing to do with the other. I'm making my game because its cool, and allows us to exploit our core talents (yikes that sounds almost PR). If you liked Full Throttle or Grim Fandango or yes, the Monkey Island series, thats where we're headed, so I'm certainly not using this discussion to gauge interest in any one particular type of game as its irrelevent at this point.

Lastly, I dont recall making an argument that included non-gamers. I mentioned gamers that dont play adventure games. Either way I'm not interested in the casual customer or creating a mass appeal game. I'm strictly aiming it at a hardcore niche who loves this type of game as I do.

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