04-03-2005, 02:52 PM | #21 | |||
merely human
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But who exactly are you making your games for? Hardcore adventurers? Mainstream gamers who like to dabble? Everyone? How do you plan on marketing it? How do you lure people in? The adventure game genre has the worst marketing, imo, and they really need a major rehaul. Quote:
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04-03-2005, 03:05 PM | #22 |
merely human
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Oh, and I don't profess to be an expert on these things. I'm just an observant, loud-mouthed gamer who just wants what's best for the kinds of game I love playing.
If you know of stuff that I should know, feel free to tell me.
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04-03-2005, 03:18 PM | #23 | |
Magic Wand Waver
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1. Not everyone has Broadband, many still have only dial-up connections. And for many who live just off the beaten path, it is unavailable (except for satellite, which is expensive, and requires a dial-up for uploading). Even where I live, in Sarasota, in a suburban area, right near a major road, I am unable to get anything but Cable (or Satellite - but DSL, and wireless aren't an option). A long d'load is ridiculous for anyone with dial-up. 2. Having a disc copy makes it easy to load in a second PC - and for me that's an necessary option - PC's die - how will we be able to re-d'load it without paying twice? If a d'load is corrupted, will we have to pay twice to d'load it again? 3. There have been several indies who have sold discs from their websites, and have done quite well with it. Adv gaming sites are quite friendly to indies, and the interest is definitely there to purchase games directly from developers. 4. Another issue you didn't bring up, yet has been discussed, is the serial game. Gamers are leery of buying a game in parts, fearing that it will never be completed, and that they will pay a great deal over time for one game in serial parts. I admire your attempt to bypass the publishers. You will have more creative license, more income from the game, and a lot of less grief to deal with. Self distribution is a hassle, but you will get more sales that way, by discussing the game at adv gaming sites, than the slipshod way publishers market adv games. I seriously hope you don't choose only a d'load approach. From what I've seen on other sites in discussion, you may cut your purchasers in half by doing so. FGM-Lyn
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04-03-2005, 03:27 PM | #24 |
merely human
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Lynsie has a good point. If you want to 'diversify' your market (and potential fan base) to include non-broadband users, find alternate ways of distribution. One way would be the 'old fashioned' method of fulfilling orders by sending cds over the mail. Another would be to keep the game exclusively downloadable but to have the otherwise huge file segmented into several smaller packets that could take just 30 minutes to download on a dial-up connection. The user would have to wait a while (a day or two) to get the entire file, but once she has it she has it.
If the dial-up user switches computers, you could advise them on how to transfer all the data from their old system to the new one, or they could simply re-download the game (if they're patient enough).
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04-03-2005, 03:33 PM | #25 |
Magic Wand Waver
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You may even want to offer it both ways and give a discount to those who don't require CD's.
FGM-Lyn
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04-03-2005, 03:35 PM | #26 |
FlipFrame
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Hehe, I think you're expert enough to know what you like, and by that frightfully high post count, you talk about it too!
Just to answer to one major question you asked, I'm making the game for myself, and for old school adventure gamers period. The talk of combat, TB or RT is just that, talk. If it was included, it would be to bridge the gap between pure AG and RPG. More, dare I say, mainstream gamers might be interested if we had some dynamic elements to lure them, those new gamers might rally around AG's they otherwise might have shunned to to misguided preconceptions. The combat could entice and encourage them to try an otherwise full AG. I'm not proposing anything more than even what KotoR offers; really no bolder than the small lengths BG&E took their action combat to, which was subtle compared to the adventuring elements. Really though, I miss the days of Lucasarts and am really saddened that no game yet IMHO has matched the intelligence and sheer artistry of Grim Fandango. Playing through it again after many years, you forget just how charming and bold the characters are. The evocative music...the epic feel of the story. I want to recapture that. I honestly dont' see why AG's need to be Myst clones or murder mysteries when they can be so much more colorful, so much more imaginitive. I realise I sound like I'm patting the hell out of my back, but being a professional animator and my partner being a brilliant fiction writer, AG development just makes too much damn sense. From a technology standpoint, they are much more forgiving and from an art content creation standpoint, less demanding. We get to exploit what we do best and thats pretty damn exciting. The reason I jumped in at this time was your thread question. Considering what we're venturing to do, I figured after a year of 'spectating' here, it was time to start participating. You guys were always a breath of fresh air, as your posts always included, not excluded all gamer types and types of games. I dont believe I read one flamewar or even mildly seething argument, and thats rare compared to the forums I've been to...especially the RPG/Fallout forums *cough*. Cheers |
04-03-2005, 03:35 PM | #27 | |
merely human
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04-03-2005, 04:00 PM | #28 | ||||
merely human
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I don't consider myself a hardcore adventure gamer (I only started playing games intensively 5 years ago), and am not interested in labelling myself as such. I have a weakness for good storytelling and gameplay that's very tightly integral to it. I'm more open and receptive to anything that'll excite me, as long as it has a good, compelling story to tell. Others may just play a game for its puzzles or something else, and that's okay. I think Rags Tornquist is the one to watch out for. After being frustrated by loud-mouthed fans bothering him about the action bits in Dreamfall, he finally just threw his hands up and declared that the game has gone beyond being an adventure. Which finally freed him to do whatever he wanted. If the fans got upset, well, they got upset. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that Dreamfall would be any less good, right? IMO, the freedom Tornquist finally allowed himself opened up a great wealth of possibilities formerly oppressed by the genre and its fans. Quote:
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04-03-2005, 04:01 PM | #29 | ||||
FlipFrame
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Though I must ask...isn't cable broadband?? Thats what I have as do the majority of BB customers, and I'm getting 4mbits per second. A gig DL is really nothing a quick sandwich break can't alleviate. Your number 3. is exactly what I expected and am happy to hear you say that, which was one of our impetuses to go that route to help lower our overhead. Quote:
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Anyway bootstrapping is very alluring, again, for the exact reasons you give. IP control/ownership and I can make whatever the hell I want. That freedom has some serious value, hopefully not to just me but to you as well. Cheers Last edited by EvoG; 04-03-2005 at 04:22 PM. |
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04-03-2005, 04:40 PM | #30 |
capsized.
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The main problem is that the level of interactivity just isn't there in the now pretty old point&click formula. For gamers clicking on 3-4 hotspots on pretty drawn but static 2d screens just isn't enough in times where detailed 3d worlds are popular.
As for online purchasing: Why not? Finding different ways of distribution is an important step for the gaming industry to finally regain diversity.
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Look, Mr. Bubbles...! Last edited by samIamsad; 04-03-2005 at 05:01 PM. |
04-03-2005, 05:03 PM | #31 | |
FlipFrame
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I'll say one thing I do like that is completely missing from AG's, are 'bonus' inventory items. For the most part, everything you collect is used on something to further the story and get you into the next location. Whereas I love being rewarded for exploring in an area off the story path and receiving a special item or ability that may allow me to do something I'd otherwise have to pass up later in the game, or allow me to have an advantage. The player is then encouraged to really look around the world to see what they find, but isn't necessary if they simply want to charge through the story. Lastly, if you haven't gathered by now, I'm a HUGE proponent of realtime 3D worlds. Hell I'm struggling not to make our game simply 3rd person direct control, for fear of alienating the AGer that thinks then that its another Tomb Raider or RE4 (though this isn't a bad thing, but I do want to sell my game and a core demographic is too valuable to misguide). Cheers |
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04-03-2005, 05:10 PM | #32 |
Magic Wand Waver
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Sorry to make my post confusing. Cable IS Broadband. I was making the point that even though I'm NOT off the beaten path, and live in a very populous neighborhood, Cable is MY only choice. And believe me, I've tried to get away from this cable company. Yet only a few miles from me are those who can't even get cable. Broadband capability is simply not keeping up with demand.
Addressing what SamIamsad says - Tim Schafer recently commented about this in what he called density of interaction. It would seem that the more detailed the backgrounds, pre-rendered or real-time, the less interaction in the area for the player. (note Syberia I&II). The adv game developers are reluctant to attempt 3D. Detalion's MJII and Sentinel, and URU are the only ones that come to mind. URU's interface was not intuitive, and many had trouble navigating, with jumps and camera angles. I haven't played Sentinel, but I found MJII very easy to navigate with, using only a mouse. The game itself wasn't anything to write home about, but I do have to give them credit for accomplishing a workable 3D interface for adv games. I can't see how an indie developer could possibly reach this level of design on a shoestring budget. Where indies shine, however is in innovative and creative approaches to games. Like Trep, for me the primary element in adv games is the story. I can live with less than terrific graphics, or even simple puzzles (challenges), but it must have an engrossing story. And I love the exploration part as well. I wish you luck on your endeavor, and hope your past experience can get you through the frustrating parts. Please keep us up to date on your progress. FGN-Lyn
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04-03-2005, 05:22 PM | #33 | ||
merely human
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Sometimes if he has a great new idea for gameplay - for example, an adventure game that uses A.I. as an integral part of puzzles - it may not be possible given that he can't afford to realize it. And more commonly, many indie games end up being clones of already available mediocre commercial games, which themselves are bland clones of better quality and more exciting games. Quote:
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04-03-2005, 05:36 PM | #34 | ||||
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Look, Mr. Bubbles...! Last edited by samIamsad; 04-03-2005 at 05:43 PM. |
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04-03-2005, 05:58 PM | #35 | |
capsized.
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Compared to movie standards, good indie games mostly end up being of student's film quality. Not good indie film quality, because game development still needs a lot of money. It's so saaaad. Back in the 80s one antisocial man, fourty cups of coffee and no sleep at all could program a kick ass and competitive game in a few weeks all on their own.
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Look, Mr. Bubbles...! Last edited by samIamsad; 04-03-2005 at 06:05 PM. |
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04-03-2005, 06:17 PM | #36 | |
FlipFrame
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I dont want to appear arrogant, but unless I misunderstood you, I dont see anything inherent to the games you've described that are outside the reach of an indie. What exactly did you mean? Last edited by EvoG; 04-03-2005 at 06:51 PM. |
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04-03-2005, 06:26 PM | #37 | |||
FlipFrame
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Cheers |
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04-03-2005, 07:15 PM | #38 |
capsized.
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Oh, and yeah "Planescape: Torment" puts every adventure game released after "Grim Fandango" to shame. But it was an AAA game and didn't sell well. From what I've read, some interesting stuff got cut by the suits at Interplay after "Baldur's Gate" became a success. Before that the Black Isle team had artistical freedom at its best. Don't know what happened, but it was enough that German game designer Guido Henkel (Realms Of Arkania trilogy)who signed up at Black Isle during the development of PS:T left the PC gaming industry forever. He's the guy on the packing.
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Look, Mr. Bubbles...! Last edited by samIamsad; 04-03-2005 at 07:27 PM. |
04-03-2005, 07:26 PM | #39 |
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I don't know about you guys, but I kind of like the state of the AG market. I mean, look at FPS, I love them sure, but I can admit that only about 2 of every 10 are worth playing. The market is just rushed with things put out to make a quick buck. To me, if somebody makes an adventure game, it's not about money, but that they care about what they're doing. I think that tends to yeild better games. Not always, but mostly the case. If AG's were to become highly popular, we would just get a bunch of junk that would tarnish the name of adventure games.
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04-03-2005, 07:36 PM | #40 | ||
merely human
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platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs | gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii | blog: a space alien | book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris | games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain | sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer | music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake | twitter: a_space_alien Last edited by Intrepid Homoludens; 04-03-2005 at 07:44 PM. |
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