[ozzie]

Grim Fandango the story I love like no other. It's full of laughs, heartbreak, surprises and genuine sympathy and empathy for the main characters.
Grim Fandango the game I loathe. Terrible controls and obscure puzzles suck all the fun out of it!

So, to reexperience this excellent, excellent story I prefer to watch a longplay some gentle soul on the internet provided. You can find it here. The videos are without commentaries and cut out some of the otherwise tedious to watch walking around. Just watch and enjoy! The end comes all too soon!

If this list was about the best stories in video games, I'd 100% agree. But I think Grim Fandango failed in regards to what makes a game a game.

[subbi]

I'm quite happy about the top4. It has three of my favorites.
Grim would not be my #1, but I can understand it would be the popular choice.
It's also the game that started off the successformula of 3D characters on 2D backdrops.....this worked much better than full 3D in most cases.

So all in all, a very good list, which also favores good storytelling over gameplay elements.

Also no Sierra/Lucasarts bias over other companies (unlike the Top20 of some years ago, which was really biased towards both Sierra & Lucasarts)

Ironically though, both number 1 and 2 are the hardest to get working properly on todays machines.

Grim requires turning off multithreading manually each time you play the game and TLJ still has graphical issues wrt AA and such.....still unresolved today.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by ozzie

Grim Fandango the story I love like no other. It's full of laughs, heartbreak, surprises and genuine sympathy and empathy for the main characters.
Grim Fandango the game I loathe. Terrible controls and obscure puzzles suck all the fun out of it!

So, to reexperience this excellent, excellent story I prefer to watch a longplay some gentle soul on the internet provided. You can find it here. The videos are without commentaries and cut out some of the otherwise tedious to watch walking around. Just watch and enjoy! The end comes all too soon!

If this list was about the best stories in video games, I'd 100% agree. But I think Grim Fandango failed in regards to what makes a game a game.

Despite the lack of mouse control, I still didn't have as much problem with it as you did. Although you would of thought it could of came out on a console or something since the control schemes were on par with survival horror games. Yet again, I never had a problem with it. Aim character, move forward, spacebar to interact, etc. Not hard, just a little different.

Also I want to point out I have never beaten the game. When it came out, I didn't have much patience for change in terms of adventure game mechanics back then.

[ozzie]

Maybe not hard, but not enjoyable either. Like I said, for me it was half the reason that I didn't get much joy from it. I'm glad so many people do. But I think it fails at fundamental levels.
I sometimes wish that Grim Fandango were an animated series instead! Or maybe simply a better game. Still, at least I can enjoy the story otherwise.

[iqzulk]

Originally Posted by Jackal

And by yes I mean no.

Well, then no it is. But if it's not just a gimmick, then there is something that I just don't understand. Riven is THE best game in the top5 both from the points of gameplay and visual design. Moreover, all writing and all acting there is solid (to say the least) and authentic to the in-game world (of course the game just doesn't have much of a plot... but what's there is done really good). Moreover, Riven is THE best game in its sub-genre.

So, why only 5th?

[Jackal]

Simple: we liked four others better.

I agree with you, though, it's the best game in its sub-genre. (And so does the list, as there are none others above it.) But your claim about both gameplay and visual design is purely a matter of personal preference, nothing more.

[iqzulk]

Originally Posted by Jackal

But your claim about both gameplay

What are you talking about? Riven is a game ABOUT gameplay. It is as much about enjoying beautiful and incredibly detailed scenery (which DOES hold up even by today's standarts) as it is about piecing together two gigantic interconnected puzzles (which are, by the way, perfectly authentic to the in-game world) and discovering hidden clues about them. It is challenging, it is fair and it gives the player all the freedom he needs. Which is a whole lot more than can be said about gameplay aspect of 4 certain other games.

Originally Posted by Jackal

and visual design is purely a matter of personal preference, nothing more.

Sorry, haven't seen anything like Red Cave, Stone Garden, Wahrk Room or the Age of Tay in either of #1-#3. Not to mention the mindblowing level of detail.

[ozzie]

I feel that the preferences represented by this list weigh story over gameplay. So, no wonder, eh?

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Fien

I wish someone would make me see why other players enjoy BS1 so much because I honestly don’t understand. Sure, the graphics are very nice. Great intro with the clown. Story... okay, not real interesting. Puzzles... okay, not very original. Characters... I find George almost as bland as Brian in Runaway. Nico is only marginally better. The NPCs are either caricatures (that idiotic inspector) or boring (flower lady, Irish lad). Voiceacting... George and Nico okay, the rest is over the top, which would be fine in a humorous game, but this one is a mix of fantasy and realism with a little humor thrown in. Other 3rd-person adventures manage to pull that combination off, whereas BS1 is neither flesh, nor fish, nor good red herring.

IMO. IMO. IMO.

Originally Posted by Cellardoor

I agree completely with Fien on BS1. Sure, it was a nice game, but somewhat overrated. Also, for me, the Templars-story (specifically: the evil-conspiracy plot) felt like a cliche even back in the 1990's.

Fully agree with this. I am SO glad it didn't get top spot!

Originally Posted by iqzulk

So, why only 5th?

If Riven were number one, hordes of Myst-haters would lynch the AG Staff. You wouldn't want that...




Also: YAY!!! GRIM FANDANGO!!!

[Monolith]

The keyword was 'Preference'. Let it go, especially since Riven was in the top 10 out of a top 100. Seriously move on. Go make your own list.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by ozzie

I feel that the preferences represented by this list weigh story over gameplay. So, no wonder, eh?

As they should. It's the story that makes a game linger in your mind. Gameplay is just a means to an end...

[ozzie]

I disagree. But I don't want to derail the thread!
But, y'know, some games simply don't need a story. Portal certainly hadn't much of it and what was there was the designer's means to an end to keep the player involved and motivated.

[iqzulk]

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

If Riven were number one, hordes of Myst-haters would lynch the AG Staff. You wouldn't want that...

Well, it's another extreme. Nobody talks about "promoting" Riven to "THE BEST ADVENTURE EVER". Mainly because it simply does not represent the whole genre due to nearly completely omitting both inventory and interaction with NPCs.

Originally Posted by Monolith

The keyword was 'Preference'. Let it go, especially since Riven was in the top 10 out of a top 100. Seriously move on. Go make your own list.

Ouch! The deal is that I just happen to enjoy reasoned debate. If that kind of behavior is shunned upon on these forums - then OK, I'll let it go.

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

As they should. It's the story that makes a game linger in your mind. Gameplay is just a means to an end...

Then I have but a one simple question for you. Why do you PLAY those games instead of watching them on youtube?

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by iqzulk

Then I have but a one simple question for you. Why do you PLAY those game instead of watching them on youtube?

Playing the games instead of watching them makes you a heck of a lot more involved, which heightens the impact a game can have.

As an example:
I'd have cried less when simply watching To the Moon instead of playing. And that's a game with absolutely minimal gameplay...
It's unfortunately also too recent to have made the list. Next time they make a list, To the Moon will be on there and rightfully so...

[Agustin]

Well, my two cents now that it's over: I roughly agree with half the list, although I would have shuffled a great deal of titles. That said, I feel the Top 25 is weak with some newer games that don't warrant such high spots.

Anyway, here's my Top 10 games that didn't make it to the list:

1. Death Gate

Enough has been said about this. Terrible omission.

2. Space Quest III

Very surprised about this one because it's definitely on par with Space Quest IV and is generally considered the better game. I would have included it for its wonderful MT-32 soundtrack alone

3. Dragonsphere

One of the best fantasy adventures ever made, period. Extremely polished, tight design and a riveting story.

4. Mission Critical

Probably THE best science-fiction adventure to date, or at least surely the best original one. Admittedly a weak beginning, but the latter half features outstanding writing and one of the most thought-provoking finales ever in ANY game. Seriously, I mean that.

5. Leisure Suit Larry 3

Another surprise. I agree with the seventh chapter, but this one warranted a spot in the Top 100 as well. Many consider this the better Larry, and I have to agree.

6. The Gene Machine

Fun. Great puzzles. Charming characters. Fun. Excellent story and setting. Perfect pacing. I can't understand why this adventure remains so ignored.

7. Alone In The Dark

Let's face it, if you decided to include "pseudo adventures" such Portal, Amnesia and others, there's NO WAY you can leave this title aside. It's pure classic.

8. Rex Nebular And The Cosmic Gender Bender

How could you? Microprose deserved more with their excellent trilogy of adventures. Rex Nebular is far from being a Roger Wilco copycat. Excellent puzzles and storyline; the final sequence in Macho City is worth the entire game.

9. Legend Of Kyrandia 2: The Hand Of Fate

Such a lovely, entertaining and polished installment of a classic series. For sure better than many games on the list.

10. Chronomaster

Before Sanitarium, there was Chronomaster by the same team. Awesome concept (bottled universes where time stands still) that translated into truly creative puzzles. Uneven, yes, but damn good science fiction with plenty of choices, non-linearity and settings.

Honorable mentions: A shame that no game from Dynamix made it either. I'm torn between Heart Of China and Rise Of The Dragon, but I'd have included one of them. Also, Case Of The Rose Tattoo is superior in every way to the first chapter, and different enough to warrant its inclusion. Finally Normality, which would be very low on my Top 100 but definitely there.

I never played Azrael's Tear but I know some folks swear by that title.

That would be all, I had to vent

[iqzulk]

Originally Posted by Agustin

7. Alone In The Dark

Let's face it, if you decided to include "pseudo adventures" such Portal, Amnesia and others, there's NO WAY you can leave this title aside. It's pure classic.

Because then you will be also bound to drag in Bioforge, Silent Hill 1-2 and Eternal Darkness.

[Jackal]

I may have to revisit Death Gate this year given the hue and cry over its absence. I have played it, and really have no strong recollection of it other than "another good Legend game", which didn't really warrant more consideration than anything here. But maybe it's worth another look. My memory isn't what it used to be. (If I remember correctly. )

Originally Posted by ozzie

I feel that the preferences represented by this list weigh story over gameplay.

As a generalization, perhaps. Really we prefer the games that have the best balance of both, or at least the best integration of both.

Originally Posted by iqzulk

What are you talking about?

Which part didn't you understand? Riven has a particular style of gameplay that you like and many, many others don't. It has a visual style that you prefer and others don't. It's certainly the most puzzle-heavy and realistic looking. But that's a far cry from saying the "best" of either. You really can't "debate" your own bias, only share it. And hey, Riven was ranked the #5 game of all-time and the best of its kind. Probably a whole lot of people who disagree with it being in the top ten at all. Be thankful we weren't among them.

Originally Posted by TimovieMan

It's unfortunately also too recent to have made the list.

Actually, To the Moon did make the list as one of the alternate recommendations. But yes, it'll have a better chance next year when more of us have played it. Maybe.

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Actually, To the Moon did make the list as one of the alternate recommendations. But yes, it'll have a better chance next year when more of us have played it. Maybe.

Are you suggesting that you're planning on doing this every year???

[Jackal]

Not with all the same pomp and ceremony, of course, but yes. Here's a quote from the end of the article:

The plan is to revisit the Top 100 each year, adding new games, removing older ones, and shuffling the existing order as necessary. It shouldn’t change too much year to year – these games are on it now for a reason! – but we’ll do our best to keep the list current from now on.

[Gabe]

I like the list's finale and in general, despite "forced" so called adventure games like Heavy Rain,Fahrenheit,Portal..
Like this list(top 10) shows adventure gaming left belong 20th century as today's retro gaming sanctum.