[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Well, what really bugged me in MI was the complete lack of structure in Part 2 (i.e. more than half of the game), which really felt like a completely pointless puzzle-fest. I like solving puzzles, but I like to know why I'm doing it, and to get rewarded, neither of which MI2 provided. In MI1, if you start tackling the first task (defeating the Swordmaster) then you, logically enough, have to get a sword, then get trained, etc. It makes sense, you know where to start, and you know why you're doing things.

Still, the Monkey Island series is one of the few series that immediately presented you a clear set of goals in each new location and chapter. It obviously started with the three trials thingy in SoMI. Get the treasure! A ship! A crew! Sorta the archetipycal Monkey Island "puzzle". So archetypical in fact that it was recycled twice more in two subsequent sequels. But, I kind of liked the whole structure. You always had a clear goal, one big "puzzle", which then was broken down to a set of smaller puzzles. Subtle hints, too. If there was a dialogue option that just didn't go away no matter how often you approached a character, chances are that it was connected to a puzzle somehow. Think of ye good old Blondebeard, who you could keep asking about his awesome, shiny gold tooth over and over again... Another trademark of the series.

Pity that you didn't like DOTT. This game's "puzzles" have the sort of insane twist and wit your average game designer doesn't even bother with to begin with. Aye, they're plenty. They can be silly, too. Also great: Talking to dead cousin Ted, which leads to monologues reminding you of what the heck to do. Pretty cool design I'd say, that.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Contrast that with getting Rum Rogers' map piece in MI2.

Spoiler:

The first step actually involves hypnotizing a monkey with a banana.

Even if that puzzle made sense (which it didn't, at least to me), there's no reason why you should even consider trying to solve it, apart from the fact that it looks like a puzzle and has to be there for some reason -- and its relationship with getting the map piece is far from obvious.

I never found this to be a huge problem, but that's probably because I played the easy mode version of Monkey Island 2 before the hard one, so I already knew that I needed to

Spoiler:

turn off the flow of water at the waterfall.

Of course, that's not an excuse for the way that they handled it (though I thought that the whole

Spoiler:

monkey wrench

thing was actually a clever joke, albeit one that doesn't translate)...

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by RLacey

I thought that the whole

Spoiler:

monkey wrench

thing was actually a clever joke, albeit one that doesn't translate

Sure, it's a clever pun. And you do have to admire their guts for going with pun sense rather than common sense. But that admiration doesn't translate into enjoyment of the puzzle, since it is so frustrating for most people.

[Jeysie]

Wordplay puzzles can be fun. I just think that, for instance, King's Quest 6's implementation thereof is much, much better to deal with.

I don't have time for a detailed "analysis" right now, but some brief thoughts (well, as brief as I ever get, anyway)...

In KQ6...

Spoiler:

I felt pretty happy solving the Seeing Gnome puzzle with the invisible ink. It's a pretty clever alternate way of looking at such an item... and even if you hadn't heard the term "invisible ink" before, you could likely still logic it out. Furthermore, the game is full of wordplay puns, so you know to expect that type of puzzle.

In MI2...

Spoiler:

For one, it's the only wordplay pun in the game, if memory serves, and there's no real indication to think that way about a puzzle.

Then, you really have to be familiar with the term. And even if you are (which I am) there's not any reason to think of it... as opposed to a different type of wrench, or just a plain "wrench". (I'm not a mechanic, do I know what specific sort of wrench you need on a waterfall nut?)

Then once you *do* figure out you need a monkey wrench, you end up having to figure out that you can make one by freezing a monkey via putting a banana on a metronome. Right. Like I said, "LucasArts puzzle".

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Kingzjester]

I hate you all.

[Squinky]

Why, because not everyone agrees with you?

[Jake]

That's probably one reason he hates everyone. The fact that most posts in this thread (mine included) have dissolved into nitpicking and outright trolls in polite opinion's clothing is another valid reason to express hatred of us all.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

In KQ6...

Spoiler:

I felt pretty happy solving the Seeing Gnome puzzle with the invisible ink. It's a pretty clever alternate way of looking at such an item... and even if you hadn't heard the term "invisible ink" before, you could likely still logic it out. Furthermore, the game is full of wordplay puns, so you know to expect that type of puzzle.

Possibly, but I hate that puzzle because you lose the game if you don't arrive in the location with the correct object. That causes more frustration to me than working out the MI2 example.

Anyway, I'll just accept that the vast majority of people believe that this puzzle was a colossal mistake. Fair enough. I'm not saying that it's particularly good; I just don't think that it's quite as bad as most people seem to think.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Jake

The fact that most posts in this thread (mine included) have dissolved into nitpicking and outright trolls in polite opinion's clothing is another valid reason to express hatred of us all.

I dunno... seems like simply an in-depth discussion of parts of a game to me. And, if you're going to have an in-depth discussion on a game, it's going to get nitpicky occasionally.

Sorry, I'm with Squinky on this one.

Lacey: Fair enough, there. I have to admit that personally I don't consider most "deaths" that big a deal. And if it's a choice between smacking my head because I missed something that suddenly clues me into a puzzle solution, and finally solving a puzzle and saying, "How was I supposed to think of *that* without a hint/walkthough?", yes they're both annoying, but I'll take the former.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[samIamsad]

Shheeeeeeeesh. Who's gonna dance with me? Michael Land is awesomeomomeome.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Jake

That's probably one reason he hates everyone. The fact that most posts in this thread (mine included) have dissolved into nitpicking and outright trolls in polite opinion's clothing is another valid reason to express hatred of us all.

Another reason? So you're saying that people not agreeing with you is a valid reason to express hatred?

People these days...

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Why, because not everyone agrees with you?

You know, if you hadn't asked that question, I wouldn't have even realized what he'd said. After reading your reply, I had to open his comment to see what prompted you.

Originally Posted by Squinky

Another reason? So you're saying that people not agreeing with you is a valid reason to express hatred?

People these days...

Actually, I find that, when I reach the point where I've had too much of someone's very strong opinions offending my sensibilities, turning my back on them really does feel every bit as good as 'getting revenge'. I rarely even feel the need to sink in one of those cutting remarks (I used ot be quite good at them) anymore. I'll play nice until it becomes impossible, and then I edit my User CP.

*Lee thinks to himself that he has to stop posting unsolicited replies to poor Squinky's comments*

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

*Lee thinks to himself that he has to stop posting unsolicited replies to poor Squinky's comments*

Oh, but then I'll no longer have a one-man fan club, and we don't want that to happen, now do we?

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

In MI2...

Spoiler:

For one, it's the only wordplay pun in the game, if memory serves, and there's no real indication to think that way about a puzzle.

Then, you really have to be familiar with the term. And even if you are (which I am) there's not any reason to think of it... as opposed to a different type of wrench, or just a plain "wrench". (I'm not a mechanic, do I know what specific sort of wrench you need on a waterfall nut?)

Then once you *do* figure out you need a monkey wrench, you end up having to figure out that you can make one by freezing a monkey via putting a banana on a metronome. Right. Like I said, "LucasArts puzzle".

Peace & Luv, Liz

Spoiler:

I happen to be norwegian, and as I was a fairly young boy back then, my english wasn't riddled with terms like monkeywrench. I decided I needed a wrench of some sorts, and looked in the dictionary, where I found monkeywrench. Monkey? Well, there's only one monkey in the game, and that's in the bar on Scabb Island. Maybe that's a clue? I happened to have a banana, tried giving it to him, to lure him to follow me (as I instantly thought about that particular puzzle in SOMI). Didn't work, but I realized I could stop and start the metronome as I wished, tried that earlier in the game. Stopped it, and put the banana on it. He was paralyzed for some reason, and I now had a wrench. Using a monkey as a wrench didn't make any sense, but it was a pun, and a funny one it was too. To me, the actual leads made sense, a bit of brainstorming and the puzzle would automatically solve itself. You knew where the monkey was and you had a banana. It wasn't that hard, really.

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Oh, but then I'll no longer have a one-man fan club, and we don't want that to happen, now do we?

You need never fear that, dear lady. Your fandom is confirmed for life.

However, perhaps a less conspicuous fandom would look more dignified.

[Karmillo]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Another reason? So you're saying that people not agreeing with you is a valid reason to express hatred?

People these days...

Yes, especialy when it comes to people bad mouthing Monkey Island 2!

But I don't see how the Monkey Wrench puzzle is much different that the red herring puzzle.

[Spiwak]

SoMI never gets down. It's always consistently funny. The marooning with the one guy that's been there forever, and the cannibals.

CoMI is also consistently funny. Unfortunately that was my introduction to the series, so I may be biased, but the game was simply unstoppable as far as comedy is concerned.

MI2 was good, no doubt. Mind-boggling a lot of the time. And the worst part is, as a few have pointed out, it's not side-achingly funny as the other two (haven't played EMI). It's got some good laughs, to be sure, but it really isn't the comedy-gaming classic that SoMI is.

[Scoville]

Originally Posted by RLacey

Possibly, but I hate that puzzle because you lose the game if you don't arrive in the location with the correct object.

You could use the magic map to escape alive at any point during that sequence.

[Karmillo]

Originally Posted by Spiwak

SoMI never gets down. It's always consistently funny. The marooning with the one guy that's been there forever, and the cannibals.

CoMI is also consistently funny. Unfortunately that was my introduction to the series, so I may be biased, but the game was simply unstoppable as far as comedy is concerned.

MI2 was good, no doubt. Mind-boggling a lot of the time. And the worst part is, as a few have pointed out, it's not side-achingly funny as the other two (haven't played EMI). It's got some good laughs, to be sure, but it really isn't the comedy-gaming classic that SoMI is.

Good doesnt equal funny, MI2 may not have been as funny as SOMI or CMI(Although I found MI2 to be funnier than SOMI) but as far as story goes MI2 is the best

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by Jake

That's probably one reason he hates everyone. The fact that most posts in this thread (mine included) have dissolved into nitpicking and outright trolls in polite opinion's clothing is another valid reason to express hatred of us all.

If I may say, you have the funkiest idea of what a troll is.

This is a troll. What I see here is a lot of detailed analysis of some very well loved games. I for one find it very interesting.

And Flyboy, I sort of stand by my thread title. I was trying to be creative.