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Old 12-26-2005, 06:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
(The alternate floppy intro is... interesting. It gives the very start of the game a different feeling, but I'm not sure it works that well for me.)
After playing the CD version now, and seeing the intro, I have to say that the intro didn't exactly impress me. Overly cheesy, and overly explanatory in too little time. It's like "Yeah, hey, dude. I was in this helicopter crash when I was young and then this weird dude came and adopted me and then I made this robot and then, incidentally, twenty-or-so years later, bad guys came with guns and bombs, and off I am, on another helicopter ride. Man, I hope I survive another crash."

I prefer the floppy intro (which isn't so much and intro, just starts off with a helicopter crashing). Much more mysterious. Still cliché. But it just feels less tacky. The only thing that's weird in the floppy version is his need to repair Joey, since you've never, ever seen Joey or know at all what he is.

Granted, I don't know much about the plot as a whole, but that intro doesn't feel so important.
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Old 12-26-2005, 06:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jeysie
That's exactly what made it work, at least for me. As Duckman said, Reich is the guy you expect to have to chase (or be chased by) through the game... and then you enter the furnace room and see the camera and you're so sure that Reich's watching you. And sure enough, when you open the door there he is. And you're so certain that you screwed up and it's time to die... except that *Reich* gets shot instead?

It's obvious that whoever's behind the camera isn't on Reich's side after all. Does that mean they're on *your* side? Why did they save your life?
Wow, that sounds pretty cool. The only reason I can't relate is that what was going through my mind was nothing like that. My thoughts went something like this:
"Hey, why's no alarm going off? Isn't anyone watching the camera? Huh, I guess not, or maybe it's being watched by someone on my side I haven't heard of yet. Either way, obviously there's nothing to worry about, or else I'd be dead by now."
"Joey unlocking the door like that is straight out of Empire Strikes Back! Is this the extent of his function in the game- opening a door, fixing a robot?"
"Hey, who's this guy? Oh, he's dead now. OK."

Quote:
If the point of a story like this one is that the character doesn't remember his past and now he's stuck in a situation where that past seems to be coming back to haunt him, well... you kind of have to give the character a mysterious background before you can show his character.
Oh, sure, that's fine. Any kind of premise is fine by me. But when the first plot point in the story is a hint of a future plot twist, it tells me they've got no story to tell. I understood the amnesia; I accepted the amnesia. But then, before we're given any reason to think of Foster as anything more than a generic avatar, already the writers expect us to care so much about his past that we'll start wondering about it. That talk about Undermann is pushing the player's willingness to accept a contrived plot too far.



What do you guys think of the puzzles? I'm hardly qualified to judge them, since I hate the typical adventure puzzles and these are as typical as they come.
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Old 12-26-2005, 06:32 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by MoriartyL
What do you guys think of the puzzles? I'm hardly qualified to judge them, since I hate the typical adventure puzzles and these are as typical as they come.
So far, I like them. They've been non-idiotic. I.e., no "use sandwich on pipe to create marionette to use in puppet show to distract recycling plant worker." It's been pretty much logical all the way.
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Old 12-26-2005, 07:15 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by MoriartyL
"Hey, why's no alarm going off? Isn't anyone watching the camera? Huh, I guess not, or maybe it's being watched by someone on my side I haven't heard of yet."
Heh. I never wondered why an alarm wasn't going off because... well, we don't know how this game's universe works yet. (As well we shouldn't, since we've barely gotten started.) Maybe an alarm *wouldn't* be going off in this universe.

I assumed Reich himself had been watching the camera somehow, or perhaps one of Reich's flunkies. Either way, why set off an alarm? He's just going to go down there and shoot/apprehend Foster, after all, and Foster's unarmed.

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Originally Posted by MoriartyL
"Either way, obviously there's nothing to worry about, or else I'd be dead by now."
Heh! I guess this is where being familiar with adventures gives one a different mindset. I thought I had stumbled upon a death scene at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
"Joey unlocking the door like that is straight out of Empire Strikes Back! Is this the extent of his function in the game- opening a door, fixing a robot?"
I'm not much of a Star Wars fan, so the first part didn't strike me in any way.

As for the latter, that's another thing I like about Joey... he's useful for solving puzzles, unlike some near-useless sidekicks in other games (*cough*King's Quest V*cough*).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
"Hey, who's this guy? Oh, he's dead now. OK."
Well, they explained who the dead guy was - at least the basics, that is - in the intro... and in the dialogue between the guard and Hobbins at the start... and in Foster's furnace room dialogue with the guy... and you'll find out even more about Reich later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Oh, sure, that's fine. Any kind of premise is fine by me. But when the first plot point in the story is a hint of a future plot twist, it tells me they've got no story to tell. I understood the amnesia; I accepted the amnesia. But then, before we're given any reason to think of Foster as anything more than a generic avatar, already the writers expect us to care so much about his past that we'll start wondering about it. That talk about Undermann is pushing the player's willingness to accept a contrived plot too far.
Well, the setup so far is... you came from the city as a boy, were stranded in the Gap in a crash, and were rescued by the tribes living there. You don't remember much about who you were in the city.

Now that you're a full-grown man, someone who seemingly does know who you were (or thinks he does, anyway) thinks you're important enough to come out to the Gap, and kidnap you to his city.

So... I'm at a loss as to why you wouldn't be curious about your past, seeing as how it's seemingly the entire reason you're now stranded in the city. The Overmann bit is just a new clue in the puzzle. (I.E. you now know who they were looking for, although it doesn't mean anything to you right at the moment.)

Of course, there's lots of other things to be curious about as well up until this point. These are some of the questions I can come with for even just this small first part of the game:

Why were you on that helicopter? Where was it going? Why was only your mother with you (what about your father)? Why did the helicopter crash?

Why did Reich kidnap you? Who is this Overmann person he thinks you are?

Why did Reich's helicopter crash? What messed with/jammed the guidance system?

What city are you now in? Is it the same city you originally came from? How does the city differ from the Gap?

Why did LINC save your life? Does it consider you important for some reason?

Reich obviously wasn't the "head honcho", so who was he working for? Who wanted you kidnapped?

I mean, I'm not entirely sure what else you'd want said about Foster this early on, without burdening the player with lots more exposition and ruining some of the surprise and story exploration. I mean, how many full-length stories do you know of that tell the audience everything that's going on in the first 10 pages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
What do you guys think of the puzzles? I'm hardly qualified to judge them, since I hate the typical adventure puzzles and these are as typical as they come.
Well... they *are* typical adventure game puzzles. I think I remember this game's puzzles being mostly logical, though, in the sense that you generally have a reason for doing them and the solutions generally involve logical uses of items. Memory's fuzzy though... I'll have to wait for the next stopping points to make sure.

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Old 12-26-2005, 07:44 AM   #25
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Well, I just made it out of the furnace. There is so much dialogue. How do you all keep up with it? I already have 2 pages of notes, and I missed a lot.
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Old 12-26-2005, 07:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
These are some of the questions I can come with for even just this small first part of the game:

Why were you on that helicopter? Where was it going? Why was only your mother with you (what about your father)? Why did the helicopter crash?

Why did Reich kidnap you? Who is this Overmann person he thinks you are?

Why did Reich's helicopter crash? What messed with/jammed the guidance system?

What city are you now in? Is it the same city you originally came from? How does the city differ from the Gap?

Why did LINC save your life? Does it consider you important for some reason?

Reich obviously wasn't the "head honcho", so who was he working for? Who wanted you kidnapped?
Interesting questions. Not one of these occurred to me, because I was still stuck on the more important unanswered question: "Why should I care?".

Quote:
I mean, I'm not entirely sure what else you'd want said about Foster this early on, without burdening the player with lots more exposition and ruining some of the surprise and story exploration. I mean, how many full-length stories do you know of that tell the audience everything that's going on in the first 10 pages?
Oh, you misunderstand me. I'm saying there should have been less exposition and more characterization. Clues for a plot twist later on are only effective if the player is willing to think about them. But why would anyone (other than the most hardcore detail-obsessed adventure fans ) want to worry about a character who they have no connection to? The writer should first make him a likeable character, or show what his earlier life was like, or something, before he can demand of the player to wonder about him.

At this point, we know nothing about Foster's personality, nothing about his feelings for his current predicament, nothing at all. So far all we know about him are little clues- forgotten past, unknown importance, prophecies, blah blah blah. He's not a character- he's a plot device!



Quote:
Well... they *are* typical adventure game puzzles. I think I remember this game's puzzles being mostly logical, though, in the sense that you generally have a reason for doing them and the solutions generally involve logical uses of items.
That's it? So far, we've:
  • Escaped from a guard
  • Broke open and unlocked doors
  • Repaired two robots
  • Interrogated an innocent man for commonly known information
  • Stole his lunch
In all this, was there nothing noteworthy? If not, then what is it doing here? Is there nothing here which is more than cookie-cutter design? Is there nothing here which is creative or unique, or worthy of our time? Is the play experience no more satisfying then it would have been had these puzzles been cut out? Or can we read deeper into these puzzles, and learn something about the characters, or the story, or the developer's artistic intentions, from the design of the puzzles?
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Old 12-26-2005, 07:50 AM   #27
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After all these criticisms, I would be remiss not to mention the excellent interface. Very functional, without getting in the way. Only thing missing is a double-click for exiting scenes.
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Old 12-26-2005, 08:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colpet
Well, I just made it out of the furnace. There is so much dialogue. How do you all keep up with it? I already have 2 pages of notes, and I missed a lot.
It's not that bad, is it? Well, there's a lot of exposition in the beginning, but no vital clue, really. And the important plot points are usually repeated at various occasions. But it's true that there's a lot of conversation; just enjoy it for itself, without worrying about missing something.


And, MoriartyL, I'm not even going to try and answer your various remarks. Because I'm too busy putting the finishing touch to another awfully long post. And, more importantly, because we've basically already been through all that, haven't we?
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Old 12-26-2005, 08:26 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Interesting questions. Not one of these occurred to me, because I was still stuck on the more important unanswered question: "Why should I care?".
Well, I dunno. Why should we care about a random programmer being chased for some unknown reason by a suit-wearing agent and a leather-clad vixen? (The Matrix) Why should we care about some random farm boy finding a message from a random princess in some equally random robot? (Star Wars) How about wondering why we should care about some random British guy about to get his house bulldozed? (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

So here we find some random city boy raised by wilderness tribes being kidnapped back to the city by bad guys. No worse than the examples noted above, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Oh, you misunderstand me. I'm saying there should have been less exposition and more characterization. Clues for a plot twist later on are only effective if the player is willing to think about them. But why would anyone (other than the most hardcore detail-obsessed adventure fans ) want to worry about a character who they have no connection to? The writer should first make him a likeable character, or show what his earlier life was like, or something, before he can demand of the player to wonder about him.
Although I can see some of your point, I'm still not sure what you're looking for, exactly. I mean, do you honestly want a lengthy intro detailing the entire childhood of some character we've never met before? Aside from the fact that such a thing could be a game all on its own, you'd run even more into the "So, why do I care about all this?" problem.

And, for what it's worth, this is all more of a science-fiction story matter than an adventure game matter. I don't think about plot details like that because I'm an adventure game veteran (I haven't been playing adventures for all that long, relatively speaking, especially back when I first played BaSS) but because I'm used to the conventions of SF.

As I said, characterization in a game IMHO should come while actually playing the game. But you have to get into the plot right away in order to *have* a game to play!

I mean, I honestly can't think of any game off the top of my head where you have more than just basic information about the player character anyway, except for sequels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
At this point, we know nothing about Foster's personality, nothing about his feelings for his current predicament, nothing at all. So far all we know about him are little clues- forgotten past, unknown importance, prophecies, blah blah blah. He's not a character- he's a plot device!
We know he's intelligent, cynical, sarcastic, and a bit of a smart-aleck from his various comments on objects and dialogue. We know he's somehow good with electronics despite growing up in the wilderness (another thing to be curious about). We know he's fairly athletic (from dodging lasers, sliding down poles, and hanging off doors). We know he's pissed at Reich killing his tribe (since he says so a few times), and confused and worried about being trapped in the city and being a (apparently) hunted fugitive (from some of his comments to Joey).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
  • Escaped from a guard
  • Broke open and unlocked doors
  • Repaired two robots
  • Interrogated an innocent man for commonly known information
  • Stole his lunch
We escaped from a guard because, well, when somebody's chasing after you with apparently malevolent intent, escaping from them is usually a good idea.

Breaking open the doors is related to the escaping.

You repaired one robot so you could have a new home for the personality board of your friend Joey.

You repaired the second robot so you could have a way to escape some more.

We interrogated the innocent man for information that is commonly known to *him*, but not to *Foster*. (After all, if you didn't know where you were or what the heck was going on, wouldn't you try to weasel info out of the first person you spotted that wasn't going to shoot you?)

You technically don't have to take the guy's lunch right now. (Though you could construe that as meaning Foster's a bit of a jerk. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
In all this, was there nothing noteworthy? If not, then what is it doing here? Is there nothing here which is more than cookie-cutter design? Is there nothing here which is creative or unique, or worthy of our time? Is the play experience no more satisfying then it would have been had these puzzles been cut out? Or can we read deeper into these puzzles, and learn something about the characters, or the story, or the developer's artistic intentions, from the design of the puzzles?
I don't see what's so wrong with the puzzles. Foster's in a predicament, and all of the puzzles were getting out of his current predicament and start to figure out what's going on.

The puzzles aren't incredibly unique so far, but then, why should they be? At the current moment our immediate goals are basic, so the IMHO realistic solutions are fairly simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colpet
Well, I just made it out of the furnace. There is so much dialogue. How do you all keep up with it? I already have 2 pages of notes, and I missed a lot.
Heh! That *is* a side-effect with character-heavy games. I personally keep up with it partly also by taking notes, and partly that I tend to be good at remembering things I read (which is off-set by the fact that I tend to be very bad at remembering things I hear ).

Edit: Sorry, missed this while posting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
After all these criticisms, I would be remiss not to mention the excellent interface. Very functional, without getting in the way. Only thing missing is a double-click for exiting scenes.
IIRC, Esc will skip scenes, while . (period) or clicking the mouse button will skip dialogue lines.

Peace & Luv, Liz
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Old 12-26-2005, 08:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jeysie
Why should we care about a random programmer being chased for some unknown reason by a suit-wearing agent and a leather-clad vixen? (The Matrix)
Because we've seen that he's looking for the answer, and because we can relate to this. Who among us has not asked himself, "I wonder if there's some other reality beyond what I see?"?
Quote:
Why should we care about some random farm boy finding a message from a random princess in some equally random robot? (Star Wars)
Because we can sympathize with his feelings of being repressed and wanting to do his part. We can also relate to C3P0's cynicism, and admire R2D2's bravery.
Quote:
How about wondering why we should care about some random British guy about to get his house bulldozed? (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
Because we can relate to how the bureaucracy has mistreated them, and because we can sympathize with his inadequacy as an ordinary person to deal with the bigger issues.

Quote:
So here we find some random city boy raised by wilderness tribes being kidnapped back to the city by bad guys. No worse than the examples noted above, IMHO.
We can't relate to what he's going through, because his situation is so alien. We can't sympathize, because the details of his past are glossed over. We can't even understand him! This is nothing like the earlier examples.

Quote:
Although I can see some of your point, I'm still not sure what you're looking for, exactly. I mean, do you honestly want a lengthy intro detailing the entire childhood of some character we've never met before? Aside from the fact that such a thing could be a game all on its own, you'd run even more into the "So, why do I care about all this?" problem.
I'm looking for some humanity. I'm looking for something I can relate to or sympathize with. I'm looking for a believable character. A good story is not built upon obscure plot points, it's built on a good character. If we take Grim Fandango, for instance, we can relate to Manny's aspirations; we can sympathize with him for the work he has to do to get there; we can understand his relationships with the other characters. We don't understand the story until later, but it doesn't matter because the character is likable.

Quote:
And, for what it's worth, this is all more of a science-fiction story matter than an adventure game matter. I don't think about plot details like that because I'm an adventure game veteran (I haven't been playing adventures for all that long, relatively speaking, especially back when I first played BaSS) but because I'm used to the conventions of SF.
I love good sci-fi. Good sci-fi is about people, either literally or as a metaphor.

Quote:
We know he's intelligent, cynical, sarcastic, and a bit of a smart-aleck from his various comments on objects and dialogue.
No more so than any other generic AG hero. It's no more a measure of his personality than the theft.

Quote:
We know he's somehow good with electronics despite growing up in the wilderness (another thing to be curious about). We know he's fairly athletic (from dodging lasers, sliding down poles, and hanging off doors). We know he's pissed at Reich killing his tribe (since he says so a few times), and confused and worried about being trapped in the city and being a (apparently) hunted fugitive (from some of his comments to Joey).
How do we know this? I certainly didn't. Maybe I just missed those lines.




I'll keep writing later- I have to go out.
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Old 12-26-2005, 09:09 AM   #31
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Wow. As someone said... I've got a bad feeling about this (thread).

Anyway...

Colpet, you don't really need to take notes or take track of everything. At worst, you'll miss some small story part (but you should remember them if you don't stop playing for days), but never (or maybe almost never ) some puzzle clues.

Bigjko, I agree about the puzzles; they're really straighforward.

And MoriartyL... sometimes it's better to let go. If you don't care about the story, or the art style, or the atmosphere, or the puzzles, at that point, you won't care for them after 10 hours.
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Old 12-26-2005, 09:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Because we've seen that he's looking for the answer, and because we can relate to this. Who among us has not asked himself, "I wonder if there's some other reality beyond what I see?"?
We don't find that out until *after* the beginning of the movie, when he's talking with Trinity in the bar, IIRC. During the very beginning of things he's just Joe-Schmo tinkering with computers, as far as we know, who people are after for some unknown reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Because we can relate to how the bureaucracy has mistreated them, and because we can sympathize with his inadequacy as an ordinary person to deal with the bigger issues.
We don't find out the former until after he's already spent the beginning of the story doing nothing puttering around his house. I'll concede the latter, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
We can't relate to what he's going through, because his situation is so alien. We can't sympathize, because the details of his past are glossed over. We can't even understand him! This is nothing like the earlier examples.
He's an ordinary guy now far away from home in an unfamiliar place, forced to deal with things he doesn't yet understand.

I can understand some of the feelings that sort of thing might generate. True, the specific details are alien, but then, I've never had my house bulldozed to create a bypass or had people running around thinking I'm the technological Messiah, either.

Unless they've made an adventure game story involving a D&D and computer geek who spends her days pushing paper around in an office and her nights surfing the web and playing games, I'm never going to play a story that isn't at least partially alien to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
I'm looking for some humanity. I'm looking for something I can relate to or sympathize with. I'm looking for a believable character. A good story is not built upon obscure plot points, it's built on a good character. If we take Grim Fandango, for instance, we can relate to Manny's aspirations; we can sympathize with him for the work he has to do to get there; we can understand his relationships with the other characters. We don't understand the story until later, but it doesn't matter because the character is likable.
Well, when I played the beginning of Grim Fandango, I don't remember knowing much about Manny either, other than that he was a sarcastic, cynical (dead) guy forced for some unknown reason to have a job helping the souls of the recently dead on their journey to the afterlife because he's unable to make that journey himself for some other also unknown reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
We know he's intelligent, cynical, sarcastic, and a bit of a smart-aleck from his various comments on objects and dialogue.
No more so than any other generic AG hero. It's no more a measure of his personality than the theft.
True, it's an artifact of the game being comedic, but still, you need the right sort of characters for a comedic game to work. For instance, in the game King's Quest 6 the main character there is very polite and comments on and to people with eloquent language and a noble bearing, yet at the same time a bit shyly and uncertainly in parts. There's not a lot of snarky comments floating around (not from him, anyway). As such, the game has a more serious bent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoriartyL
How do we know this? I certainly didn't. Maybe I just missed those lines.
While I admittedly can't be entirely sure my perception isn't colored, I have tried to be careful and make sure I didn't say anything specific that hasn't been mentioned or implied in some bit of dialogue or message during the first bit we've played.

Since you don't seem willing to pend judgement, I was trying to not have to spoil you, but if you want a little of the truth about the plot, feel free to read...

Spoiler:
Finding out more about Foster's past and Foster himself *is* the point of the game, essentially. The game is one big character and universe exploration.


At any rate, I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree from my end. It is probably at least partially a side effect of the fact that you dislike adventure game tropes and I enjoy them, but while I do have some of my own issues with this game, I admittedly either don't see the things you're mentioning as being problems, or find it odd to single this game out for having them (when I think there are plenty of other stories/games that also have them).

Plus we're starting to get a bit off-topic.

As Ninth said, if you honestly don't like the game, it's OK, nobody's going to force you to keep playing. This is supposed to be fun, so if you're not having fun there's not much point.

Peace & Luv, Liz
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"Actually, I'm thinking more like the Candyland board game. But, I like this idea better."
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Old 12-26-2005, 11:18 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurufinwe
We've basically already been through all that, haven't we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth
Sometimes it's better to let go. If you don't care about the story, or the art style, or the atmosphere, or the puzzles, at that point, you won't care for them after 10 hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
We're starting to get a bit off-topic.

As Ninth said, if you honestly don't like the game, it's OK, nobody's going to force you to keep playing. This is supposed to be fun, so if you're not having fun there's not much point.
Wow.

This is so not what I intended. Let me try again.


It seems to me that the AGCP has the potential to be much more than just an excuse to replay old games. I think we can and should use it as an opportunity to learn from the past: To analyze developers' intentions as one might analyze a painting or piece of music, so as to better appreciate the end result. To look for what can be learned from, and more importantly what can be improved upon. To consider alternatives to what was done, to broaden horizons. To improve our own perceptions by differentiating the good from the bad. In short, to look at these games with an open mind.

I fully intend to play BaSS from start to finish along with you. I do not wish to know what lies ahead until we get there. As far as we should be concerned at this point, there is nothing to know about Foster except for the little clues given so far. All I have said so far is a simple reaction to what I have played so far, not an indictment of the game at large. Just now, I tried (and failed) to push the conversation into deeper territory, to recognize the language being used, but by that point I had come off as sounding so negative that I think you must have mistaken what I was saying for rhetorical questions.

Those questions regarded the game's puzzles. It is easy to be critical of this type of puzzle, but I was actually looking for a more positive analysis. When we say the puzzles are good only because they aren't unfair, I think we're taking the wrong approach. I was hoping that someone with more experience and familiarity with adventure puzzles could analyze these and determine what works and why. The question is what these puzzles tell us about the characters, what their dramatic purpose is, why the game would not have been as good without them. The closest thing to an answer so far was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
Breaking open the doors is related to the escaping.
Searching for an object to pry open the door creates (at least in theory) a sense of desparation. It would probably have been more effective if it were time-based, but still there is a lot of meaning in this puzzle. The rung you pull off the wall is hardly a suitable crowbar- it's a measure taken in panic. This is a good puzzle. Still, we can see how it can be improved upon. A time limit (and putting the rung in clearer view) could have enhanced this feeling.
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Old 12-26-2005, 11:37 AM   #34
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I must CONCUR with the random CAPITALISATION issue. SOMETIMES it seemed to WORK, but most of THE time it just seemed to be any old word, and goodness me, was it ANNOYING.

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Old 12-26-2005, 11:59 AM   #35
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Moriarty:

(laughs a bit) Ah, as an old friend of mine once quipped, "The great part about the Internet is that we can all completely misunderstand each other faster than ever before!"

Now that I know what you're going for, I had been considering a similar thing myself. Maybe we can start this all over again, and going from the intro, proceed through the dialogue and puzzles bit by bit looking at things closely. We have a whole week, after all, and even after that we can still talk about early parts of the game.

Though I probably totally didn't come off that way, I do appreciate your ideas... they take approaches I hadn't considered before (since you're new to the genre).

Peace & Luv, Liz
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:36 PM   #36
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I finally got the elevator working, and am down to another level (where the cable is). Is this where we're stopping? And for how long?

So far I'm not minding the game too much; I do find all the dialogue and multiple characters confusing and a bit tiresome, especially when I'm stuck. I really do much better with true puzzles, rather than inventory usage ones, even though most of these are pretty straight forward. Since I've found out you can die, I'm saving quite a bit in case I make a wrong move.
I've also eased up on my note taking, which makes things go a bit quicker.

Spoiler:
I'm really ticked that I lost my WD40 and that key. Other than long spiky objects used for poking out keys from keyholes, lubricant is the next most useful inventory item I've come across in games .
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colpet
I finally got the elevator working, and am down to another level (where the cable is). Is this where we're stopping? And for how long?
Heh! You went a fair bit too far actually... In fact, I think you might have actually played all the way through to what I'd have picked for the second stopping point. The first stopping point was essentially right after the scene in the furnace room with Reich, right after you exit the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colpet
So far I'm not minding the game too much; I do find all the dialogue and multiple characters confusing and a bit tiresome, especially when I'm stuck. I really do much better with true puzzles, rather than inventory usage ones, even though most of these are pretty straight forward. Since I've found out you can die, I'm saving quite a bit in case I make a wrong move.
I've also eased up on my note taking, which makes things go a bit quicker.
Heh, I have to admit that we're just opposite then, and that explains why I'm not big on Myst-type games... I don't mind "true puzzles", but I like inventory and dialogue puzzles as well, and the more characters and dialogue the happier I am. I'm a complete character nut.

And yes, you can die, I should have mentioned that before. (sheepish look) That is part of the reason why I wanted to replay the game, so I could find all of them (they don't call me the Diva of Death for nothin'! )

Peace & Luv, Liz
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"Maybe it's still in the Elemental Plane of Candy."
"Is the Elemental Plane of Candy anything like Willy Wonka's factory?"
"If it is, would that mean Oompa Loompas are Candy Elementals?"
"Actually, I'm thinking more like the Candyland board game. But, I like this idea better."
"I like the idea of Oompa Loompa Elementals."
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Old 12-26-2005, 02:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
And yes, you can die, I should have mentioned that before. (sheepish look) That is part of the reason why I wanted to replay the game, so I could find all of them (they don't call me the Diva of Death for nothin'!
You should try Secret of the Luxor sometime. Each death is via a different method, and I think the developers made an effort for each demise to be as unique as possible .
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Old 12-26-2005, 06:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeysie
Heh! You went a fair bit too far actually... In fact, I think you might have actually played all the way through to what I'd have picked for the second stopping point.
Funny, that's where I stopped playing too.
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Old 12-26-2005, 06:43 PM   #40
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Thank you for the pointer, Colpet... I'll have to check that out.

At any rate, I thought I might be all official about trying to start this analysis stuff over. We could start with picking apart the intro for a day or two.

CD Intro:

Since the CD intro is essentially the comic book, I managed to find the following two websites we can use as references for the text and dialogue:

Scans of the comic

Gallery of differences between the CD intro and the comic (It's a Flash website, sorry)

For the floppy and in-game stuff, I made the following notes:

Floppy intro:

We start with a wide view of the city, with cars driving past in various directions.

We then see a huge fade-in of the game's title in large letters, which then changes to a slow pan up to the very top of all the steel city towers. It then picks up right at the comic scene with Foster, Reich, and the pilot in the helicopter as the helicopter is about to crash, but with this dialogue instead:

Pilot: I'm picking up a JAMMING signal, sir!

Reich: Switch to OVER-RIDE, you MORON!

Pilot: Too LATE!!

The helicopter then crashes and Foster escapes as in the CD intro, but with the differences:

When Reich starts trying to shoot and the pilot runs in and ducks out of the way:

Reich: OUT of the WAY, you bungling IDIOT!

They both fire at the retreating Foster unsuccessfully.

Reich: What are you WAITING for?

Reich: FIND him - NOW!

It then progresses to the dialogue inside the first location as the CD intro.

In-game dialogue:

Foster runs in and heads up to the walkway. Moments later, a guard comes in from the outside door, and a worker (Hobbins) comes in from the right. They stand on the lower level talking.

Hobbins: What YOU want?

Guard: Looking for a SABOTEUR from the GAP.

Guard: He CRASHED a CHOPPER and ESCAPED!

Hobbins: Sounds DANGEROUS to me...

Guard: Don't WORRY. He's not going ANYWHERE.

Guard: We've cut POWER to the ELEVATOR...

Guard: ...and the crash has BLOCKED the WALKWAY.

Hobbins: What if he comes in HERE?

Guard: You'll be FINE. We've posted GUARDS.

Guard: ...and REICH wants to hunt him down PERSONALLY.

Hobbins: REICH, eh? This guy must be IMPORTANT.

Guard: Yeah - we've got ORDERS direct from LINC...

Guard: Take him ALIVE - before he does any MORE damage!

Hobbins: Best of LUCK to you.

Foster: These guys are out to GET me... but WHY?

Foster: They already DESTROYED my HOME and my PEOPLE.

Foster: Well, Reich - whoever you are - it's RETRIBUTION TIME!

Foster: Got to be CLEVER - play them at their own GAME...

Foster: FIRST thing is to get JOEY running again...

The game then starts proper.

Let's chew on this for a while, maybe?

Peace & Luv, Liz
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Adventures in Roleplaying (Nov. 19):

"Maybe it's still in the Elemental Plane of Candy."
"Is the Elemental Plane of Candy anything like Willy Wonka's factory?"
"If it is, would that mean Oompa Loompas are Candy Elementals?"
"Actually, I'm thinking more like the Candyland board game. But, I like this idea better."
"I like the idea of Oompa Loompa Elementals."
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