[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

The short version: Different countries' trademark (copyright?) laws.

Sure, I understand that, but once you change it to anything other than "Foster's Beer", there's no longer any point in having the beer in the picture! Never mind, though- it's obviously not particularly meaningful.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by bigjko

I agree with Moriarty on Hobbins. It would've made more sense if he had wandered a bit more around, I think.

It's a strange thing about BASS - it made a lot of fuss about the Virtual Theatre idea, and really doesn't use it for anything visible (I have no idea how the scripting works, so I can't say 'doesn't use it'). A couple of NPCs wandering between a couple of scenes is basically your lot - other than that, everything's pretty much static throughout.

[MoriartyL]

You know, this is the first I've heard of any "Virtual Theater". Care to fill me in with the historical perspective? Or at least just explain what it is.

[Toefur]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Theatre

When the engine was first released in Lure of the Temptress it rivaled competing engines such as LucasArts' SCUMM engine, and Sierra's Creative Interpreter, due to its basic level of artificial intelligence, where NPCs could traverse the world in seemingly random patterns, interacting with their environment.

Doesn't sound as impressive there, but man this thing was hyped up a lot.

[Kurufinwe]

I've never really understood what the fuss was all about. As Richard noted, the ability for the characters to move 'on their own' (that is, to move between various screens, independently from what the PC is doing) was hardly ever used in BASS (except for Lamb at some point). I haven't played much of LotT, but I remember that it looked very weird in that village in the beginning, with all the characters walking around all the village screens with seemingly little purpose. And the BS games didn't use that ability at all.

And hadn't The Colonel's Bequest done all that years before, anyway?

[Richard]

Virtual Theatre was always meant to be a bit more than just wandering NPCs - the big one was that Lure of the Temptress had a character called Ratpouch who you could order to go and perform simple tasks ("Ratpouch, get out of my goddamn way, go punch the guard and never darken my doorstep again."). Revolution made a huge deal out of it at the time, although there's really not much to get excited about in any of its games.

And hadn't The Colonel's Bequest done all that years before, anyway?

Not quite. Colonel's Bequest (and Dagger of Amon Ra) teleported the characters from place to place according to your current timeframe (for instance, 12:15, Lillian is in the garden, 5:30, Gertie gets killed by one of Roberta Williams' idiotic deathtraps), with the addition of randomly wandering NPCs (at least in Dagger - I don't think anyone moved of their own accord in Bequest, but it's been a long time...).

The Last Express probably got the closest (largely scripted, but with a lot of subtle touches - for instance, while being chased by (SPOILER) for the (SPOILER), you can just lock yourself in your room and hum until the next station, instead of working out where to hide the (SPOILER) for when she catches you)

[Jeysie]

OK, I played ahead, and sure enough, the stopping point I had in mind is:

When you get the elevator working and go down to the second level. Don't actually leave the elevator yet, though.

We'll go until Friday, January 6th, or when people start getting antsy to keep going, whichever comes first.

You can talk about any part of the game up until the new stopping point without spoilers now.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[bigjko]

Ok, I'm panicking a bit. Is there any way to get my WD40 and key from the Man in the plant?

I'd hate to reload my save from way back just to try some other way of going through that alarm thing, in case this was just supposed to happen, or something.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by bigjko

I'd hate to reload my save from way back just to try some other way of going through that alarm thing, in case this was just supposed to happen, or something.

There are no dead-ends.

[bigjko]

And we're at second level. I must say, I'm no electrician, and have no knowledge of elecricity what-so-ever. So that opening the control panel puzzle didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Also, the putty was pretty darn hard to spot. I guess that's sort of realistic, in a way.

[Kurufinwe]

I've just finished the second part. Very little to say: Joey is still cool, the puzzles are fun (although the pixel hunting in the storage room was pretty bad --- yet, at least, you had to work to get in the room, and left empty-handed, so you knew you had missed something). Very little story there, a strong contrast with the exposition-heavy first part. And I got killed once (in the power plant); I think I'll always get killed there, no matter how many times I replay the game.

That was fun, and made me want to play more, but I'll just wait for the appointed time. Guess that means I'm back to Still Life...

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Richard

There are no dead-ends.

I think I had found one, back then, but maybe that was a bug.

Spoiler:

I hadn't cut the cable when Joey was upstairs, and he didn't want to come up again after that.

[colpet]

I got killed in the power area as well, and by the scanner at the security desk (though I saved just before, TG).
Here's a comment I posted at JA regarding this game.
So far I'm enjoying the game. I get frustrated a bit with all the dialogue, but the inventory puzzles are very fair.
I find that this sort of game has it's own rules for progression. It's not just a matter of exploration, knowing what you need to do and finding items. The dialogue is important to trigger events, and I alway have to remember to ask Joey about things. Then you need to try the items on the people, to see if that opens up any avenues. Another part is remembering the 'sidekick's' skills, and thinking about how to use them as well. It's very easy for some of these games to devolve into click on everything and everyone without actually trying to work out what to do next. This is actually why I don't like dialogue games as much as solitary games.
However, BASS's puzzles have been logical so far. When I'm stuck, I take a break. When I come back, I've often thought of something new to try.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally Posted by colpet

When I'm stuck, I take a break. When I come back, I've often thought of something new to try.

I love it when games work out for me like that. It's been a long, long time since I've last had this feeling of waiting to get back to a game at the end of the day to try new ideas, and seeing that one of them works. There were very few games with that quality of gameplay at the time, and none now; I just wish I could erase parts of my memory and play BASS, MI, or The Dig as if it were the first time.

Now you've done it, colpet, you've made me all warm and sad at the same time...

Bloody nostalgia...

[MoriartyL]

I'm really glad Ninth pointed out that the cable should be cut- when I first came across the cable and Foster said "I can't REACH!", I wanted to use Joey to take it. I was annoyed that I wasn't given the option to ask or force him to take it. I didn't want to cut it down- then I wouldn't be able to save it for later. I just wanted to rip it off and take it, and if Joey is so all-purpose he ought to be able to do that for me. Otherwise, Joey's started to grow on me. I like his suggestion at the beginning to jump down- not very conventional behavior for a robot.

Anyhow, we've met a few more characters now, and a few themes have emerged. One common thread between these people is incompetence. We saw the incompetence of the shooters at the beginning; we hear that Norville gets porridge on his ID card; the old man is asleep. These guys aren't doing their jobs very well, and they don't seem to care at all. Pretty realistic.

Another common thread is innocence. Looking through Reich's file, we see that he's just an ordinary guy. He paid not for diabolical plots, but for food and car maintenance. In fact, all these guys are downright friendly. The only guy portrayed as evil so far is Lamb. These workers are pathetic, shallow ("You've got to have tattoos and stuff") and simple-minded, but the game sides with them. They're the good guys here, and we're meant to sympathize with them.

So where's the "eeeeeeeevil" from the old man's prophecy? Judging by what we've seen so far, it'll come from the bureaucracy. We see that this work environment is ineffective when, for instance, the clipboard-lover pretends to not notice that the machinery has broken down so he shouldn't have to bother. Speaking of him, his lines about his clipboard remind me distinctly of the Vogon grunt in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the book, not the game). So it isn't exactly original. But it still is funny.

That's my reaction to most of what we've seen so far, in fact. Most of the themes here are common to sci-fi comedy. But at least it's done well. Actually, it's not as straightforward as it might seem. Sam and Norville may seem perfectly harmless, but Norville's last line is "Be vigilant!", which seems to be the company's slogan. The security guard by the crash may be so hopeless he doesn't know who you are, but he still cares about the factory more than the hospital. In the bottom line, the company owns these people. When Lamb shouts an order, it's followed. Should we be scared of these innocent people? I guess we'll find out later on.

In the meantime, I think these characters should be more afraid of Foster. Before today, Reich was living a normal life. Then Foster came around. Now he's dead. Foster has stolen a handful of personal items, cut cables, blown up control panels, stolen a robot's body, and broken the company's machine, to name a few offenses. These workers have had quiet and predictable lives, where being reassigned to a different department is the biggest thing that can possibly happen, and the things worth looking forward to are a nap and a clipboard. The other company is the enemy, and the boss must be obeyed. This life has order. Now a man who defies the company, accompanied by a sadistic robot, has come and brought chaos with him. They don't know how to deal with this, so they don't. Clipboard-guy pushes responsibility onto everyone else; the old man pushes responsibility onto Hobbin. Foster is the x factor here.

Speaking of which, what are his motivations? I mentioned earlier that he wasn't a good character, but by this point it's getting ridiculous. Why all this chaos? Is he just trying to get revenge for the destruction of "the gap", or is he blinded by the old man's mention of "eeeeeeeevil"? Joey we can understand. He's destroying things because he likes to destroy things- no ambiguity there. But even after all this time, Foster has not been developed at all as a character.


In addition to the comments on the working class and corporations, the game manages to find time to point out the subversive power of the media. (Another common sci-fi theme!) The headlines on the LINC terminal dehumanize all opponents by defining them as "loonies". The ads prey on the insecurities of the public to sell them junk. Manipulating the public, not informing them, is the media's main goal.

There are a lot of clever lines here. There's a jab at smokers which comes across pretty well. There's the description of Lamb's fur coat which firmly places him in the role of villain. Then there's the line about the pipes. I have nothing to say about it, but it demands attention, so there it is.


More comments (and questions) later.

[Richard]

I think you've misread what's going on a bit. The company is just a company, it's not in charge of the city. Lamb is a complete arse, but that's pretty much all. Foster's just your average adventure game sociopath, obsessed with advancing through the world regardless of the cost to others. He's trying to get to ground level because it's the only way to go. There's a strong corporate feel to a lot of it though, which you have picked up on - other bits include the frequent mentions of the economic war between Union City and arch-rival Hobart (at least, I think it's Hobart. I haven't played this game for years...)

But I like the characterisation in BASS a lot. It does a great job of making a lot of the smaller characters feel a lot more important and fleshed, rather than just a random guy standing around in preparation for a puzzle.

So where's the "eeeeeeeevil" from the old man's prophecy?

Actually, that's a better question than you might think. But I won't say, for fear of spoilers.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Speaking of which, what are his motivations? I mentioned earlier that he wasn't a good character, but by this point it's getting ridiculous. Why all this chaos? Is he just trying to get revenge for the destruction of "the gap", or is he blinded by the old man's mention of "eeeeeeeevil"? Joey we can understand. He's destroying things because he likes to destroy things- no ambiguity there. But even after all this time, Foster has not been developed at all as a character.

I see him as a kind of clever country boy trying to escape the big city and, because going down is usually impossible for someone like him, using unorthodox and destructive methods. Some kind of Tarzan meet Mac Guyver person.
But yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Foster myself. He's definetely not the strongest point of the game.

EDIT: Oh, and Floppy intro + comic >> CD intro.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Richard

I think you've misread what's going on a bit.

That could very well be. So what's LINC in charge of? And does this company have no connection to the governing power? See, this is like how I'm not very good at reading books- I miss all the details, and often get an incorrect picture. I'd appreciate any corrections.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

That could very well be. So what's LINC in charge of? And does this company have no connection to the governing power? See, this is like how I'm not very good at reading books- I miss all the details, and often get an incorrect picture. I'd appreciate any corrections.

I can't remember how early it is that this stuff comes out, but (and I'm avoiding spoilers, so please, no corrections from anyone else who's finished the game ;-))

Spoiler:

LINC runs the city - it's what controls all the information, runs the security, manages data, and of course, what shoots Reich at the start. However, by and large, it's just the technology that everyone relies on to be accurate and keep the necessary wheels turning, rather than a governing entity like Friend Computer or AM. The company's just a standard company - it makes stuff that the city uses, but beyond that, it's just where Foster happened to crash.

[Jeysie]

Heh! I was gonna wake up this morning and finally gather some of my thoughts on this section, and here I find everyone did it for me. Thanks, folks!

Seriously, though...

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

That could very well be. So what's LINC in charge of? And does this company have no connection to the governing power? See, this is like how I'm not very good at reading books- I miss all the details, and often get an incorrect picture. I'd appreciate any corrections.

I think you're doing all right so far. One of the things I believe I remember liking about BaSS is that it was good at setting things up to pay them off later. If you have a question about something, or you're not sure how it fits into the grand scheme of things, chances are it gets answered later.

In fact, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this sort of thing... hopefully the better to keep track of what goes on during the early and middle game to see if it does tie in later. (Like stealing the wrench and lunch, for instance. )

But you have to be patient. So don't get too worried... if you have a question to think about right now, it's probably *not* because you missed something. (In fact, it's because you picked up on something worth thinking about.)

Of course, the game does engage in some misdirection as well. The darn storeroom bit tripped me up again... even though I remember that as being a problem, and even that the solution wasn't the obvious one.

I do agree that the putty-lock puzzle was iffy... although I can see in retrospect how it might work (you essentially stopped up the socket so that turning on the electricity to it caused an overload/backwash of power), it's not something I would have thought of beforehand. I would have preferred somehow using the putty to smuggle the key past the clipboard guy and left the WD-40 as the only red herring. You'd then unlock the switches door with the key.

Of course, making it a bit more obvious that the switches would affect the elevator would have helped as well. All around an iffy puzzle.

I agree with the thoughts on Foster's actions... ironic that he ends up eventually being the saboteur that the security folk all claim he is. Though for what it's worth there's not a lot of options for getting the elevator working so he can try to find some way to figure out what's going on (or at least get out of the officers' immediate searching area).

BTW, what is the death scene in the plant? I got the scanner one, but I missed the power plant one (though not for lack of trying on my part ). I know there's a death scene in the plant *after* you get to access the area past clipboard guy, but there's one before that point?

Finally, with the cable, it's possible that once you need the cable the game will prompt Foster to nag Joey into getting it, but my memory's fuzzy on that one.

Peace & Luv, Liz