[TigerShard]

Sorry, but FFVI is a lot better than the overrated FFVII. FFVII was great to people who were being introduced to RPGs, but long time console RPG vets will tell you where the real good stuff is

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by TigerShard

Sorry, but FFVI is a lot better than the overrated FFVII. FFVII was great to people who were being introduced to RPGs, but long time console RPG vets will tell you where the real good stuff is

Well, the story and gameplay may have been better in FF6, but FF7's futurist atmosphere and grogeous graphics make it a more enthralling game, IMO. Not that I didn't love FF6...

[Kolorabi]

Guys, remember that this list was compiled by their readers - they had their own top-100 list in issue one, I think.

This is a very adventure-friendly magazine, btw. They've had several really interesting adventure-related interviews and articles.

Originally Posted by Kolzig

Hmm here's some games from the top 20 that I don't quite understand why they are there.

20. Frontier: Elite II (GameTek, 1992)

- I remember that Elite was superb and that Elite 2 was supposed to be even more superb, but I played this on my Amiga and it wasn't that good game.

I don't have a personal opinion about this, but I do know a great deal of people who disagrees with you very strongly.

19. Tomb Raider (Eidos, 1996)

- Yeah, I know that Tomb Raider 1 deserves credit for being the starter of the huge still continuing wave of third person view games. But it just isn't even top 80 material.

Well, it was an absolutely spectacular game when it first came out, and it is still very impressive. There are a few gaming moments that really wowed me, and one of these is from Tomb Raider (if you've played the game, you probably know which I mean )

18. Halo (ARGH!!!) (Microsoft, 2002)

- This I disagree the most, I wouldn't include Halo even in a top 150 list.

Agreed. I bought Halo thinking it would be the greatest thing since food or something, but in reality it felt like a very average shooter. Pretty clever enemies, but boring design.

15. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (Rockstar Games, 2002)

- This is more like ranks 100-->, not 15th.

Hehe, I would put it in the top ten.

8. Sensible Soccer (Sensible Software, 1992)

- Sensible was a classic soccer game, but Kick Off 2 was better than it. And neither of them are even top 50 material.

Uh, oh.. now you have done it. I've never ever used this smiley before, but...

The odd thing, though, is that Sensible World of Soccer, which is far superior, is at 50-something...

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by mag

I dunno. It sounds to me like your main beef with the game is that it's a role playing game. And some of what your complaints like about it being "astoundingly linear" makes me wonder if you even played it.

My main beef is that it's not a good role playing game (if one can even call it that). At that time, there were MUCH better RPG's out on PC. FFVII is sadly overrated because many people never really played any good RPG's on PC or console before FFVII. I'll give it credit for woo-ing so many people at that time, so I'll grant it a top 100 spot, but not a top 50.

[CrimsonBlue]

I think this "FFVII is so popular and remembered so fondly because it's the first one they've played" argument is getting old really quickly. That would be like saying "Monkey Island 2 is a piece of shit that really doesn't deserve it's place in history, because for many it was one of the first adventures they played". I admit FFVII was my introduction to the genre, but I still think it's better than most anything out there of it's kind.

And it's also just plain stupid to compare them to PC rgps, because they're two entirely different genres. Calling one of them better over the other is misunderstanding the term "genres". You can't compare games that aren't in the same genre. If you can, which would you say is better, Grim Fandango, or Grand Theft Auto San Andreas? They're both adventure games, but you really can't compare them, can you?

Also, Sensible World of Soccer is miles better than anything Kick Off games had to offer. But I find it pretty sad that most people only played the first Sensible Soccer, because when SWOS came out, most of them had left the amiga platform for the PC platform. Even though it was released for the PC, pc-gamers sat down and played Doom or Rise of the Triad anyway.

[Sirus]

Originally Posted by Kolorabi

Agreed. I bought Halo thinking it would be the greatest thing since food or something, but in reality it felt like a very average shooter. Pretty clever enemies, but boring design.

I thought Halo was pretty cool but suffered from some boring design. The multiplayer was pretty awesome though.

[Starflux]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

I think this "FFVII is so popular and remembered so fondly because it's the first one they've played" argument is getting old really quickly. That would be like saying "Monkey Island 2 is a piece of shit that really doesn't deserve it's place in history, because for many it was one of the first adventures they played". I admit FFVII was my introduction to the genre, but I still think it's better than most anything out there of it's kind.

What good does this do us? Join in with some reasoning and you may actually bring your point home. Don't just claim something like it's the truth and then not back it up with arguments!

[CrimsonBlue]

What claim? I just said that the "it's only because it's the first one you played" argument is plain dumb. FFVII WAS the first one I played, but that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be one of my all time favourites, next to Monkey Island 2 and Sensible World of Soccer. I also tried Chrono Cross before I tried Chrono Trigger, and I still enjoyed Chrono Trigger a lot more than Chrono Cross.

My favourite adventure game of all time is Monkey Island 2. It wasn't the first one I tried.

My favourite soccer game of all time is Sensible World of Soccer. It wasn't the first one I tried.

My favourite Racing game of all time is Gran Turismo 2. It certainly wasn't the first one I tried.

My favourite action/adventure game of all time is Metal Gear Solid. It wasn't the first one I ever tried.

My favourite j-rpg (which is, no matter how you look at it, a completely different genre from the western pc-rpgs) of all time is Final Fantasy VII. It was the first one that I tried.

So, where's the pattern then? Out of all the genres I love and play, only Final Fantasy VII is a introductory game to me. I can't for the love of God see the logic here. Why would I still think it's the best game in the genre when I've played a lot of other games of this kind afterwards? Because it's my first? Hardly. It's simply because it IS one of the greatest games ever made. I know a lot of people who absolutely hates the j-rpg genre. But they can still acknowledge the fact that FFVII is an excellent game.

And how is it outdated, besides graphics and sound? I still play it from time to time, soaking in the incredible atmosphere and music, the beautiful backgrounds and re-reading the fantastic story. Simply, it's one hell of a game that deserves to be on the top 10 list of all times.

[Starflux]

I didn't like the game because of all the things I mentioned on the previous page. Those were reasonable arguments that may not have disturbed you, but that certainly tore away any enjoyment I could have with the game. Once again, I never said that you couldn't enjoy it yourself, and I certainly saw there was plenty of atmosphere, beautiful music and interesting (if clichéd) story to dig into. And I'll be the first to admit that you can really like a game on only a few things, even if the rest isn't up to par. But my MAIN gripe with this game is its following. I know -I'm discussing two points here. One of them is pointed at the game, the other is pointed at the people who are dangerously intoxicated by it.

If you want to read my innermost thoughts on the latter, read the rant underneath the latest comic: http://www.captainaugust.com. It may give you some insight.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Also, Sensible World of Soccer is miles better than anything Kick Off games had to offer. But I find it pretty sad that most people only played the first Sensible Soccer, because when SWOS came out, most of them had left the amiga platform for the PC platform. Even though it was released for the PC, pc-gamers sat down and played Doom or Rise of the Triad anyway.

I don't know, the Amiga scene was still pretty vibrant when the first version of SWOS came out, and it did sell very well. Judging by the results, though, you seem to be right that more people played the original. It's also possible that people voted Sensible Soccer when they meant SWOS (or the entire series). But anyway... SWOS was the best football game I've ever played, and is definitely one of the most enjoyable games around.

[MDMaster]

I never quite understood what was so big and beautiful about FFVII, and having played it long enough (altough many years later) still don't understand it. I tried and played most of the older FF games (especially the fifth, which is still the one I like the most) and this one looked just like a modern update of the old Final Fantasy formula. So what was so great about that? It would be like someone took the old SSI rpgs (Countdown to Doomsday, for example), gave it a modern look and then released it. What would be so great about that? Yeah, that it's a good game but why should it be better than the old ones or different from the sequels?

I still think Final Fantasy VII got lucky, it came upon a generation of players who had no clue what games were (most who bought a PSX didn't, no offense meant since I have one too) and SquareSoft rained on them a bunch of lovable characters, sexy heroines, cliched plot, etc. How on earth could they resist that? Also Japanese culture was beginning to gain more and more space, so FFVII's release couldn't have come at a better time.

As for me I never disliked that game, but I sure dislike all the hype that generated, like it was something new and never seen before, which clearly wasn't. Still I find it much more fun to play than Baldur's G.

[CrimsonBlue]

I still don't understand why people say Baldur's Gate (on the PC) is so much better than FFVII. I mean, it's as if they're afraid of the hype the game has gotten, even though it's in a different genre.

Don't they know that the majority of the people who love FFVII or J-RPG in general actually don't like pc-rpgs at all or at least that much? I'm one of them. I thought Baldur's Gate was boring as hell, Planescape Torment might have been interesting but I still can't find the original in any shops (and I don't like playing through a full pirated copy unless I know I'll be getting it anyway). I even tried enjoying Star Wars - KOTOR, but it just wasn't the same. Most pc-rpgs feel stale to me.

I know Baldur's Gate II and Planescape Torment are rated among the best games ever. And they are. For PC gamers. There's a reason why some people don't buy PCs for gaming, it's because they don't enjoy almost anything on the PC, and that includes the typical PC rpg, typical FPS or typical RTS (that's about all there is to it these days). I don't enjoy any of these. And for me to come and agree that FFVII is not as good as Baldur's Gate is unthinkable. Because to me, it simply isn't true. And it isn't true for millions of other people either. Why is it so that a pc-rpg gamers vote counts more than someone who loves j-rpgs?

Besides, I also think the hype brougth rpgs in general into the limelight here in Europe. And that's a good thing, and I know of a lot of people who's been introduced to rpgs in general through FFVII, have now tried dozens of other rpgs, like Neverwinter Nights, Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate II. Besides, we had pc-rpgs long before the Final Fantasy series arrived in Europe (after all, FFVII wasn't the first in the US, was it?), and still nobody wanted to play those games (at least not even remotely as many as there was FFVII players).

Oh, and somebody said that FFVI was much better than FFVII. I disagree. I loved FFVI too, and it's up there among the best, but I think the story was weak and boring, and the only reason the story was kept remotely interesting was because of a good presentation of the climaxes. Kefka was a geniously put together character though, but there weren't many good characters there either. The battlesystem was also tragic. I thought the materia system in FFVII was much better.

But in the end, it all comes down to taste. Baldur's Gate II is not better than Final Fantasy VII, and vice versa. It's all a matter of taste. Besides, as I've said numerous times already, they're two very different genres - why compare them?

[mag]

Exactly as CrimsonBlue said. There's just no comparing Japanese console RPGs to American PC RPGs. They're two totally different kinds of games. It would be like saying Monkey Island isn't a very good adventure game because you like The Legend of Zelda better. It doesn't make any sense.

And it seems to me that most of these complaints about FF7 really stem from a general bias against that style of RPG. I guess that should be expected on a forum about adventure games since adventure gamers tend to heavily favor PC games. But that still doesn't make it a fair criticism. We don't like it when idiot reviewers give adventure games bad ratings simply because they're adventure games. And it's just as wrong to bash Final Fantasy VII for being what it is. If you don't like the genre, that's fine. But there's no denying that FF7 is one of the best games in that genre.

mag

[Mattsius]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Besides, we had pc-rpgs long before the Final Fantasy series arrived in Europe (after all, FFVII wasn't the first in the US, was it?), and still nobody wanted to play those games (at least not even remotely as many as there was FFVII players).

The Ultima series for example. It was big for it's time, but of course the whole gaming community was substantially smaller back then and therefore it never had the impact as FF.

[Starflux]

And it seems to me that most of these complaints about FF7 really stem from a general bias against that style of RPG. I guess that should be expected on a forum about adventure games since adventure gamers tend to heavily favor PC games. But that still doesn't make it a fair criticism. We don't like it when idiot reviewers give adventure games bad ratings simply because they're adventure games. And it's just as wrong to bash Final Fantasy VII for being what it is. If you don't like the genre, that's fine. But there's no denying that FF7 is one of the best games in that genre.

You are claiming things I never said. I am not the stereotypical 'adventuregamer' that can't adjust to any other genre. Now it may very well be that my gripes with Final Fantasy are really also the gripes I have with the whole genre, but does that matter for the argument? Can a game justify its flaws just by saying: ,,look, the rest has those flaws too!"? I think it is you who are deceiving yourself with this argument. I judge a game not by its genre but look at it with an open mind. And then I find flaws that may or may not be prominent in the whole genre, but that are undeniably in the game itself. Now a game doesn't HAVE to be perfect, but this game still has in my eyes all the flaws that I pointed out earlier, and they are still not refuted by any reasonable arguments. And since those millions of apostles are still in the stern belief that FFVII is The Greatest Game Ever, but can't seem to find any valid point to defend it with (also see my rant on Capt. August), I have no choice but to go on with my mild attacks until something finally gives.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Flux

Now it may very well be that my gripes with Final Fantasy are really also the gripes I have with the whole genre, but does that matter for the argument? Can a game justify its flaws just by saying: ,,look, the rest has those flaws too!"?

Except that your gripes with the game aren't "flaws." They're just things that you personally don't like. Saying FF7 is "flawed" because of, for instance, the random battles would be like somebody who doesn't like puzzles saying that Monkey Island is flawed because it has so many boring puzzles in it. That's why you're not judging this game with an open mind.

mag

[Starflux]

It's true that I didn't like the random battles because they made walking around the world nervewrecking and frustrating in my experience, but this wasn't because I was prejudiced about it; I hadn't encountered random battles in a game before. I tell you the truth; when I started playing Final Fantasy 7, my mind was a blank sheet of paper. All of my opinions about it it created on its own, not because I Already Hated The Game.

Yes, in the end it's all a matter of opinion. But I've been saying that all the time. But my disappointment with the game was of such a scale that I found it hard to believe so many people think it's the best game ever. That, and the fact that I soon found that many of you are unwilling to open your mind to any reasonable critique, sparked me to go and discuss it. In my experience, FFVII has designflaws of such nature that I still doubt it got there on its own credentials. It is well known that FFVII appeared at the right time on the right place, riding on the wave of Playstation enthusiasm to enter its name into the hearts of many who had never played a real substantial game before. Final Fantasy VII is not the be-all-end-all of games, and I am firm in my belief that with most of its acolytes (not ALL, stressing) it's due to nostalgia and a lack of reference material, and an abundance of obliterating hype and unchecked ravings of fanboyism/girlism, that so many people so stubbornly stare themselves blind on the game.

YES, it is a matter of taste, and I'm willing to give you folks here the benefit of the doubt, that you DO in fact justifiably judge the game to be swell (even though you've still not even argued with the points I made, something I'd sooner expect from the people who are in fact blinded by the hype). But really, I don't think you honestly believe it yourself that not over 70% of all the Sephiroth fangirls simply have no clue and don't know what the heck else is out there. And it is exactly those bad-fanfic-writing non-gamers that are causing all this distress over a game that should just be able to be a game, not some sort of fricking Holy Grail.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

I thought Baldur's Gate was boring as hell, Planescape Torment might have been interesting but I still can't find the original in any shops (and I don't like playing through a full pirated copy unless I know I'll be getting it anyway).

I never really got into Baldur's Gate, it just didn't appeal to me. But Planescape: Torment, now that is a fantastic game. It has the best writing and story that I've ever seen in an RPG, and some amazing characters. It's one of the few games that shows the kind of potential for good storytelling that games have.

I know Baldur's Gate II and Planescape Torment are rated among the best games ever. And they are. For PC gamers.

I agree that certain games appeal to certain people, but I really don't understand why people differentiate between PC and console gamers. It makes no sense to me, as _every_ console gamer I know in real life (tm) is also a PC gamer. I'm a gamer. I own a PC, I own a PS2 and I own a bunch of older systems as well. I don't want to be called a PC gamer, and I don't want to be called a console gamer.

[CrimsonBlue]

no no no, I messed that one up, sorry about that. What I meant to say (or should have said), was it's one of the best games ever for pc-rpg gamers. I don't divede between type of gamers, but I divide between type of games these gamers play. Someone who simply loves j-rpg (Final Fantasy, Xenogears, Star Ocean, Dragon Warrior etc etc) isn't obliged to even remotely enjoy a pc-rpg, because they're of so different flavour. If you love j-rpgs, like I do, you could consider Final Fantasy VII a bigger and better game than games in another genre that you don't like.

To me, Planescape Torment will never be as good a game as Final Fantasy VII, and that's just not discussable.

Flux: you need to stop assuming. Just becaue you weren't impressed by FFVII when it came out, it doesn't mean it's bad. Perhaps you went into the game expecting another Planescape Torment (or something), but instead you were introduced to a totally new genre that you, appearently don't like. Maybe it just wasn't your cup of tea. Hey, I tried Half Life, and seriously, I hated it. You know why? I just don't like the genre. I simply abhor FPS. There's no way in life I will ever enjoy an FPS for more than half an hour at a time. And I've never ever completed an FPS. But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the fact that people consider Half Life to be one of the best games of it's genre. Or maybe I should just start yelling out "IT'S ONLY NOSTALGIA, THE GAME SUCKS, THERE ARE TONS OF BETTER GAMES OUT THERE IF YOU JUST OPEN YOUR EYES!". That's just plain wrong.

EDIT: Oh, btw, I like Neverwinter Nights a lot more than Baldur's Gate 2. It just wasn't my cup of tea. I'm currently getting into Planescape Torment again too. And looking forward to Dragon Age from Bioware, and maybe Star Wars KOTOR II. But I still think FFVII is an overall better game than any of these, because I like it more. Simple as that.

[Starflux]

You know, CrimsonBlue, you have a point. Even though I'm not forsaking my complaints about the game, maybe the matter of taste does weigh more heavily than I at first assumed. Mind you, I still think that all those Sephiroth-fangirls don't have a clue and are a great frustration to the gaming world, hurting both you (the true fan), and me (one who can't even safely speak his opinion anymore over it). And I've played and liked a lot of other Japanese RPG's (Chrono Trigger is a favourite) so give it a rest with the you-hate-the-genre schtick For the sake of not allowing this discussion to go on forever and us starting to repeat ourselves to boredom, I'm showing myself the better man and tossing the towel in the ring.

There, you see? I'm a reasonable man