[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by jjacob

Oh, much worse Aside from Bluray and HD-DVD there are literally like eight different "holographic" storage formats out there battling it out right now, which, besides being 'genuinely' "next-gen". Even early adopters will have to think twice before buying a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player. I'm usually somewhat of an early adopter myself, but I won't be buying either and will gladly wait till a truly revolutionary storage/media format hits the market

But the main 2 players right now are Blu-ray and HD-DVD backed by Sony and Toshiba.
The reason why Sony is harping over and over about Blu-ray is because from a business standpoint, having a drive that plays Blu-ray built in to the PS3 is a huge boost for it against Toshiba's format. Consider the scenario where in 2 years time let's say, these 2 formats are battling out for superiority. Which one has a better fighting chance, one that already has millions of customer base (I'm assuming the PS3 is going to sell millions like the 360 and PS2 before it ) or one that has 0 installation base. If both these drives are as expensive, than Sony already has an edge because people will buy the PS3 to get the drive, and also a console with it, so it will be a reciprocal benefit for its console and the format. I think they are betting on that

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

But I don't know all that tech stuff!!!

Geek doesn't = techie you know. There were plenty of geeks before computers.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Erm, I'm not a geek so I have NO idea what the hell you're talking about with all that tech jargon. Sorry.

But my post wasn't even that complicated! As long as you know that "GB" means GigaByte, what's the problem?

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

But the main 2 players right now are Blu-ray and HD-DVD backed by Sony and Toshiba.
The reason why Sony is harping over and over about Blu-ray is because from a business standpoint, having a drive that plays Blu-ray built in to the PS3 is a huge boost for it against Toshiba's format. Consider the scenario where in 2 years time let's say, these 2 formats are battling out for superiority. Which one has a better fighting chance, one that already has millions of customer base (I'm assuming the PS3 is going to sell millions like the 360 and PS2 before it ) or one that has 0 installation base. If both these drives are as expensive, than Sony already has an edge because people will buy the PS3 to get the drive, and also a console with it, so it will be a reciprocal benefit for its console and the format. I think they are betting on that

Oh I don't deny that, it's just that *I* will be laughing my ass off at those early adopters (esp. if they buy it for the HD-DVD/Bluray functionality ) when a new small disc/"cartridge" with hundreds of GBs hits the market soon after the PS3 gets launched

[tabacco]

Heh... I will laugh along with Nintento all the way if the ultimate HD storage solution ends up being a cartridge of some sort

[jjacob]

Indeed Just wiki'd some stuff;

Holographic Versatile Disc:

Originally Posted by Wiki

These disks have the capacity to hold up to 3.9 terabytes (TB) of information, which is approximately 6000 times the capacity of a CD-ROM, 830 times the capacity of a DVD and 160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs. The HVD also has a transfer rate of 1 Gbit/s. Optware is expected to release a 200GB disc in early June of 2006 and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300GB [2].

Holographic Versatile Card;

Originally Posted by Wiki

The Holographic Versatile Card (HVC) is a data storage format proposed by Optware; the company's projected release date is late 2006. They claim it will hold 30GB of data on a card approximately the size of a credit-card. At release, the media will cost about $1 each, while the drives will cost about $2000 each.

1$?! Dude, screw Bluray and HD-DVD

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Or because Microsoft is overcharging for the live service? You already pay for Internet, and for the console, and the games, so why pay even more just to play a game online. If PS3 live is free, that's a plus over XBOX live and if it gets popular, might push MS to offer free service as well.

Sony have said developers can decide on an individual basis whether to charge a fee to play their game online. You may end up having to fork out a subscription for each and every game you want to play online... even simple peer to peer games.

I doubt you'll see anything drastic happen to xbox live pricing until mmogs show up in numbers on the live service. And 3rd parties really do start asking for fees to play individual games online, on top of the live gold service fee.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Crunchy in milk

You may end up having to fork out a subscription for each and every game you want to play online... even simple peer to peer games.

No developer charges money now for PC online gaming. Why would they charge you for PS3? Only the MMO's will be most probably charging.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by tabacco

Heh... I will laugh along with Nintento all the way if the ultimate HD storage solution ends up being a cartridge of some sort

Nintendo used cartridges because they want control over the manufacturing and the games. Its easier than letting all the companies use a widely available media such as a CD. Hence why they still won't use full size discs and rely on custom mini discs. Sega did the same thing for the longest time.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Nintendo used cartridges because they want control over the manufacturing and the games. Its easier than letting all the companies use a widely available media such as a CD. Hence why they still won't use full size discs and rely on custom mini discs. Sega did the same thing for the longest time.

Yeah, that was kind of the point of my joke.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Heh heh, I got your joke, tabs. Good one.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

If both these drives are as expensive, than Sony already has an edge because people will buy the PS3 to get the drive, and also a console with it, so it will be a reciprocal benefit for its console and the format.

First of all, Blu-ray drives are said to be quite more expensive than HD-DVD ones. Same thing with discs and Blu-ray discs are supposedly damaged more easily (though TDK found the technology to make them more resilient, but it comes with a price; DVD-R discs coated with the same protective polymer cost $5.99 while those without it cost $1). Furthermore, DVD factories can be quickly and cheaply retooled for HD-DVD support while the same doesn't apply for Blu-ray. On top of all that, PS3 will probably be a shitty Blu-ray player as it won't support recording (which standalone players support) and the drive speed is rumored to be only 1X which is just enough for watching movies, but quite slow for data transfer (which might not be that important if all PS3s come with a hard drive).

So yeah, HD-DVD has more than a standing chance and it'll probably all boil down to pricing and film studios' support.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

First of all, Blu-ray drives are said to be quite more expensive than HD-DVD ones. Same thing with discs and Blu-ray discs are supposedly damaged more easily (though TDK found the technology to make them more resilient, but it comes with a price; DVD-R discs coated with the same protective polymer cost $5.99 while those without it cost $1). Furthermore, DVD factories can be quickly and cheaply retooled for HD-DVD support while the same doesn't apply for Blu-ray. On top of all that, PS3 will probably be a shitty Blu-ray player as it won't support recording (which standalone players support) and the drive speed is rumored to be only 1X which is just enough for watching movies, but quite slow for data transfer (which might not be that important if all PS3s come with a hard drive).

So yeah, HD-DVD has more than a standing chance and it'll probably all boil down to pricing and film studios' support.

I think you are exaggerating the difference in price between the 2. Blu-Ray will be more expensive, but the numbers you used seem highly exaggerated to me.5.99 for a blu-ray DVD? Come on now. Plus quality costs money with blu-rays providing Double the storage, and a more durable disk that won't be unusable because of a simple scratch.

As far as advantages go, DELL and HP, 2 of the biggest PC manufacturers in the US are supporting Blu-Ray. You want movie studios, how about Sony itself? And don't downplay the user base of the PS3 who won't have to shed another few hundred bucks on a new dvd player. In terms of game costs, PS3 games will cost the same as 360 games, so there is no loss there. And remember how the old PS2 sold a lot because it was a DVD player, so if we reach a stage when we need to upgrade to one of the 2 solutions, the PS3 looks more tempting because it is a gaming machine as well as a blu-ray player in one machine.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

I think you are exaggerating the difference in price between the 2. Blu-Ray will be more expensive, but the numbers you used seem highly exaggerated to me.5.99 for a blu-ray DVD? Come on now.

No, that price is for standard DVDs with TDK's protective coating applied, Blu-ray discs would cost even more. However, the CNET article those prices were taken from is dated November 17, 2004 so they're definitely down by now. Still, everyone's predicting Blu-ray discs would be rather expensive at first.

Plus quality costs money with blu-rays providing Double the storage, and a more durable disk that won't be unusable because of a simple scratch.

You know, I'm not sure games will need that kind of storage. MS are not even going with HD-DVDs, they're using simple dual layer DVDs and I don't believe they haven't conducted thorough case studies before going with that solution. Nine gigs is a lot of space and both Xbox 360 and PS3 are very powerful machines so more efficient methods of compression can be used. It might become too tight in 2-3 years, but I can certainly live with games coming on 2 DVDs, I doubt this gen games will ever require more.

Some people are concerned about huge open ended games coming on 2 discs. As you can theoretically choose to go anywhere in any given moment, there could be a lot of disc swapping involved. Maybe. But think about this: In 2-3 years the winner of the format wars will probably be known. External HD-DVD (or Blu-ray or whatever) drives for Xbox 360 will already become quite cheap, MS might even start including them in Premium packages. So almost everyone will have one or be able to afford one. Even if MS decides to stick with dual layer DVDs till the end, most everyone would have 2 drives: one in their Xbox 360 and one external. So you'd just pop one DVD in your console and one in your external drive - voila!

As far as advantages go, DELL and HP, 2 of the biggest PC manufacturers in the US are supporting Blu-Ray.

I don't doubt Blu-ray discs will be used for data storage on PCs (well, maybe not - we have dual layer DVD burners for quite some time now, but dual layer DVDs are still too expensive), but it's not that clear which format will prevail in the battle for movie distribution.

You want movie studios, how about Sony itself?

Of course, but there are also many big studios supporting HD-DVD so it's still not clear who will win. One thing is certain, most people will stick with DVDs until the winner is known, what with both Blu-ray and HD-DVD being quite useless without HDTV sets which are still too expensive for average joes.

And don't downplay the user base of the PS3 who won't have to shed another few hundred bucks on a new dvd player.

They will if they want full Blu-ray functionality. It's yet another hollow marketing trick, just like 1080p resolution at which hardly any PS3 game can perform well. Just like 2 HDMI outputs when PS3 can't even make full use of one. Just like support for 7 controllers when a single screen becomes crowded with only 4 people playing. Just like Cell's incredible processing power choked by a myriad of bottlenecks. Sony is playing the numbers game and it remains to be seen how many people will be naive enough to fall for it.

[jjacob]

I seriously doubt either one will "win"; they might win over the other (Blu-ray over HD-DVD or vice versa) but not over other way more promising formats; holographic versatile cards can have up to 30GBs of storage (that's a Dual Layer HD-DVD, or slightly more than a Single Layer Blu-Ray) but have one added (huge) advantage over both: they cost $1!

Then there's Holographics Versatile Disc; up to 3.9 TeraBytes of space on a single disc, and at the end of THIS YEAR Maxell will release a 300GB disc. Transfer rates are MUCH higher than conventional DVD-ish discs: up to 1Gbit/s! The very first wave of discs will cost $120, but that will no doubt drop down to one tenth of that price within a year (and when that happens, it'll demolish Blu-ray and HD-DVD):
160 x SL Blu-ray disc (25GB) = currently $960, perhaps half that in a year.
1 x HVD (3900GB) = currently $120, hopefully one tenth in a year (remember the first DVDs also cost around $100).

Anyway, more on-topic, new PS3 features;

Originally Posted by gamefront.de

Weitere Infos zur PlayStation3


03.04.06 - Das amerikanische 'PlayStation Magazine' (PSM) hat in seiner neuesten Ausgabe weitere Details zur PlayStation3 veröffentlicht (Danke an ZBOX).

- Unter Berufung auf Entwicklerkreise schreibt das Magazin, dass PS3-Besitzer ihre Konsole als eine Art 'Lifestyle Server' verwenden können: Leute von der Freundesliste können auf so etwas wie ein Blog oder Forum auf dem Server zugreifen - selbst wenn die PS3 nicht in Betrieb ist.

So könnte man z.B. ein Video-Journal mit Hilfe der EyeToy-Kamera aufnehmen, das andere Benutzer dann anschauen können.

- Fotos lassen sich tauschen, ebenso wie 'Replays' (Spielwiederholungen) von besonders guten Leistungen.

- Mit PSP soll man Fotos und Videos aufnehmen können, die man dann von überall an die PS3 sendet - egal, wo man sich gerade aufhält.

- Auf PSP lassen sich via Internet auch Fotos und Videos darstellen, die Freunde auf ihrer PS3 gespeichert haben.

(Video)blogging (via eye-toy) through a PS3 "Lifestyle Server", personal forum(s), foto-album "server", game-replays "server" etc. I'm not much of a blogger, but it looks like they're offering more than Xbox 360 Live is (currently).

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by jjacob

I seriously doubt either one will "win"; they might win over the other (Blu-ray over HD-DVD or vice versa) but not over other way more promising formats; holographic versatile cards can have up to 30GBs of storage (that's a Dual Layer HD-DVD, or slightly more than a Single Layer Blu-Ray) but have one added (huge) advantage over both: they cost $1!

Then there's Holographics Versatile Disc; up to 3.9 TeraBytes of space on a single disc, and at the end of THIS YEAR Maxell will release a 300GB disc. Transfer rates are MUCH higher than conventional DVD-ish discs: up to 1Gbit/s! The very first wave of discs will cost $120, but that will no doubt drop down to one tenth of that price within a year (and when that happens, it'll demolish Blu-ray and HD-DVD):
160 x SL Blu-ray disc (25GB) = currently $960, perhaps half that in a year.
1 x HVD (3900GB) = currently $120, hopefully one tenth in a year (remember the first DVDs also cost around $100).

Maybe they are the future of data storage, but I don't see them overtaking movie or even game distribution anytime soon, too much money involved in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD camps. And speaking of those holographic discs and movie distribution, how do you fill that space up?
Most today's TV sets can't even take advantage of increased fidelity Blu-ray/HD-DVD offer.

I'm not much of a blogger, but it looks like they're offering more than Xbox 360 Live is (currently).

Numbers game again.
They are offering more, but how will they perform where it truly matters (i.e. support for multiplayer gaming)? You can't just build that kind of infrastructure from practically nothing and expect everything to work perfectly. Xbox Live is still far from perfect and MS is polishing that infrastructure ever since they stepped into the console business.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Numbers game again.
They are offering more, but how will they perform where it truly matters (i.e. support for multiplayer gaming)? You can't just build that kind of infrastructure from practically nothing and expect everything to work perfectly. Xbox Live is still far from perfect and MS is polishing that infrastructure ever since they stepped into the console business.

Which in this case Xbox Live has an advantage because it's still far ahead in terms of an established worldwide community, technical advancements, and general experience in online service.

So this far into the development of the PS3, I'm surprised Sony has said very little about how they're doing their online service other than the fact that it's to be free. If it turns out to be not as competitively developed as Xbox Live, not enough people may be attracted to taking advantage of it and, as with the PS2, it could easily slip to be a neglected feature - that is, Sony may not give a damn about making it flourish anymore.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Maybe they are the future of data storage, but I don't see them overtaking movie or even game distribution anytime soon, too much money involved in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD camps. And speaking of those holographic discs and movie distribution, how do you fill that space up?
Most today's TV sets can't even take advantage of increased fidelity Blu-ray/HD-DVD offer.

Well, I could easily fill up 300GB (first wave of discs: 300GB, then gradually towards the 4TB mark) right now And I'd rather burn it on one disc than to have to burn all my stuff on 64 bloody DVDs Perhaps it's not yet suited for movie releases, but to me it'd be perfect for home use, not to mention that it'd be great to have the capability to back up your entire "TiVo" hard disk in one go instead of deleting it all (or burn countless DVDs). When DVDs first came along I asked myself thesame question though, what the hell to do with nearly 5GBs of space? Now I hardly ever burn a CD-R anymore

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Numbers game again.
They are offering more, but how will they perform where it truly matters (i.e. support for multiplayer gaming)? You can't just build that kind of infrastructure from practically nothing and expect everything to work perfectly. Xbox Live is still far from perfect and MS is polishing that infrastructure ever since they stepped into the console business.

Hey, I'm not defending Sony here. Don't kill the messenger! I just pointed out that they're going beyond "vanilla" online features such as multiplayer gaming (and sort-of replied to Trep's earlier question), which ofcourse should be the focal point in their developing process.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by jjacob

Well, I could easily fill up 300GB (first wave of discs: 300GB, then gradually towards the 4TB mark) right now

No doubt about it, I could use it myself. What I meant was that film distributrion companies probably couldn't take advantage of that kind of capacity in foreseeable future. Unless they decide to ship movies with hudreds of extra features, of course.

Hey, I'm not defending Sony here. Don't kill the messenger! I just pointed out that they're going beyond "vanilla" online features such as multiplayer gaming (and sort-of replied to Trep's earlier question), which ofcourse should be the focal point in their developing process.

You know, despite my negative attitude, I'd like PS3 to be a great, affordable console. However, I fear Sony is just aiming too high and/or bullshitting us. With all they promised, PS3 will either end up being:

1) the best thing ever;
2) way too expensive with many features almost no one will use;
3) a complete letdown.

I'm definitely not putting my money on 1).

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

No doubt about it, I could use it myself. What I meant was that film distributrion companies probably couldn't take advantage of that kind of capacity in foreseeable future. Unless they decide to ship movies with hudreds of extra features, of course.

That'd be great too! Still, they could be used for TV series perfectly, and otherwise the movie industry will find a use to fill it up with copy-protection software, no? No seriously, I see what you've saying, but these are practically thesame arguments when DVD came out (vs. VCD, CDI etc.) Anyway, the film industry doesn't *have* to pick it up - its main use at the moment is no doubt data backup and similar applications, so it'll probably spread via the computer industry. I'm just saying HD-DVD and Blu-ray will most likely become too limited in a couple years' time as well, and when that happens guess what format will present itself as succesor? Hey, it could happen.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

You know, despite my negative attitude, I'd like PS3 to be a great, affordable console. However, I fear Sony is just aiming too high and/or bullshitting us. With all they promised, PS3 will either end up being:

1) the best thing ever;
2) way too expensive with many features almost no one will use;
3) a complete letdown.

I'm definitely not putting my money on 1).

I'm putting my money on two, since I'll most likely use it for gaming and... ehm... hmmmmm, well that's pretty much it But let's see if they manage to impress us first, else I'm getting neither 360 nor PS3.