[Corley Motors]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

I live in southern Texas.

Sweet! So do I! I live in Houston...

[bigjko]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

And to tell you. I had this knowledge from the junior school. Not even Junior high school. I guess greece is far better in education than others...

Oh, wow! I'd like to see you stick to that statement when you're put into English for sixth graders!

[Erwin_Br]

I said that there are NO atheists.
My opinion.

So you think everybody believes in God? Okay, if that's your opinion then that's fine.

A Question: How would you call people who don't believe in God?

Accepting your self as it is is one big Fault. Getting better by the day is our purpose in this planet...

People make mistakes, you have to accept that and move on, trying to remember what you did wrong and avoiding to make the same mistake again. If you can't accept that then you can't move forward thus you can't better your life.

--Erwin

[GreenJeanz]

WOW.

Pleto, ya know, I liked you for a while.
Now, it is quite concreted in my mind that you are egotistical, ignorant, and cannot express your views in a way that makes even a slight sembalence of sense. You sound like a lunatic, ranting and rambling with such conviction over views that are wholly ridiculous, illogical, and unfounded.

Who are YOU to tell people what THEY believe or don't believe? Who are YOU to define what people call themselves? You are another human being with your own set of views which you cannot impose upon others. By repeatedly, ridiculously claiming that your view on other people's beliefs(!) is correct, you impose it. It's one thing to say "I've seen atheists who acted like blah blah and it bothered me." but it's a whole other to say "I've seen atheists who acted like blah blah and it bothered me and they're all alike."

Frankly, you've made yourself look like an utter fool, and upset a lot of people. And you should damn well be ashamed of yourself. Don't accuse others of reacting poorly to you or somesuch when what you say is ridiculous nonsense that naturally is hurtful.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I'm nondenominational christian.

[AGA]

pleto4_ryan: although I'm new to these forums, and haven't seen any of your posts outside of this thread, it's quite evident to me that you're an ass. You obviously have a pre-defined opinion on religion, and you're perfectly entitled to that, the same way everybody else is. But you clearly don't believe that other people are allowed an opinion that differs from yours. You took a thread that did nothing more that ask what religion people followed, and turned it into an unnecessary arguement. Do everyone a favour, and stop posting in this thread, or at least stop trying to argue with people about their beliefs...

[Garyos]

I seldom join in these type of discussions, but seriously Pleto, don't expect people to fully understand you when the best thing that can be said abut your english is that yuo dno't slepl lkie tihs.

[irbrian]

SO, Um... how about those Mets??

[saucyminx]

I believe in moderation.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by Garyos

What if you caught the reference, but don't remember where it was from? My mind is hurting now. This is probably just me looking at your avatar, but was it from Futurama?

Nope... Red Dwarf:

RIMMER: Everyone's entitled to their beliefs, Lister. I never agreed with my parent's religion, but I wouldn't dream of knocking it.
LISTER: What were they?
RIMMER: Seventh day advent hoppists. They believed that every Sunday should be spent hopping. They would hop to church, hop through the service, then hop back home again.
LISTER: What was the idea behind that, then?
RIMMER: Well you see, they took the Bible literally. Adam and Eve; the snake and the apple... Took it word for word. Unfortunately, their version had a misprint. It was all based on 1 Corinthians 13, where it says "Faith, hop and charity, and the greatest of these is hop." So that's what they did. Every seventh day. I tell you, Sunday lunchtimes were a nightmare. Hopping round the table, serving soup -- we all had to wear sou'esters and asbestos underpants.

[twifkak]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

Most GODS(god) that exist in human mind are GOOD, they are created by human so as to feel safe in his little home. They are the "Faces" of kidness, the ones who created this world by love and for love. (don't tell me about satan, aris, salima...because they exist because the "good" god exists.
SO when someone doesn't believe in a god, or just say a supreme power that created this world we live in, then his mind doesn't believe that the "creations" around us where made for good, thus he is emptry.

OR they don't believe in the institutionalization of goodness/kindness. (Or they believe they're the lone, kind soul in the world. ) Or one of many other possibilities. Face it: though you believe god is nothing more than our collective self, the majority of the believing world thinks that god is some infinite guy with a beard who sits in front of his Enterprise level workstation in the clouds all day, hitting the Smite button.

For over 5 years, I've been tossing around the idea that some sort of higher power exists as a sort of collective emotion, in the same sense Jung talks about a collective mind (though my experience is limited to 20 pages from a 100-level rhetoric class, so that comparison is mostly bullshit), but I haven't come to any sort of coherence yet, so I'm firmly agnostic for the time being. In any case, this isn't to say that this higher power *actually* exists -- just that it's an illusion imbued so deeply into our psyches that it's indistinguishable from reality.

(How can I be both questioning myself, and firmly agnostic? Only in that I think I'm the only one who'll answer my questions. But I'm still listening for answers, just in case.)

I believe all attempts to "explain" the "unexplained" so far have been enormously short of the truth, in the same way that Newtonian, and later, Einsteinian physics were disproved. For the time being, science continues to explain what I don't understand, with few exceptions (which are surely being worked on, currently). I'm one of those that believes kindness is a social compact -- and Government and Church have been two particularly effective ways of keeping us from falling from unstable equilibrium in our massive cooperation-competition game.

Art: An unexplained abcess of our minds. The scientists'll get to it eventually, and judging by the ability of Hollywood to corner us into paying them $8.50 on a pretty regular basis, I'm beginning to think they already have.

Heck, I may be talking to a brick wall here, but at least it's helping me think about this, myself. Since I started this soul-draining job, I really haven't done that.

Erwin is such an asshole.

But i also know scientists that say, "God is there" because they have encountered things that cannot be understood...
I know scientists that say, "Oh shit! It looks I'm going to have to get an extension from the grant board."

Thus my opinion of god must be better than yours...
Let's keep phrases like this out of this debate, if we're going to have one.

I believe in moderation.
So you're saying you want this thread closed.

Flux: You're cool with me. Keep doing your thing.

edit: Emboldened for ease of navigation.

[Wormsie]

Pleto, I wasn't mad. I was trying to provoke you a little, and it apparently didn't work.

Two Discworld quotes I remembered yesterday after reading this thread:

"If you've got your potato it's all going to be all right."

"All people are followers of the Errata. They just don't know it yet."

[Nellie]

I think twifkak hit the nail on the head. The problem here isn't Pleto's definition of atheism, it's his definition of God.

Pleto believes that God is in various things - ourselves, our goodness, art, etc. Therefore, to Pleto, if you are artistic... you cannot be an atheist, because God is in art. If you want to become a better human being... you cannot be an atheist, because God is the root of us wanting to better ourselves. That's why he's so insistent that nobody is an atheist (and so when he says 'an atheist is like this', he is NOT intending to insult any of us who are atheists by the generally accepted definition, because he doesn't believe we are atheists).

It follows that, using Pleto's definition of God, athiests can't believe in wanting to better themselves, and they can't be artistic, etc, because God is in these things, and they don't believe in God. That's why none of us is an atheist to him, because we all are artistic and we do want to better ourselves, etc. He's accusing us of being too artistic, moral, etc to be atheists! Personally, I find that quite sweet, rather than offensive.

The trouble is, to an atheist God is in none of these things. We are artistic because the brain that we evolved makes us that way. We want to better ourselves because we intelectually recognise that to become a better person is a good thing, etc. So no, Pleto, to an atheist God is not in art, or in morality, or in our desire to better ourselves. Therefore it is perfectly possible for us to do these things and believe in these things without believing in God.


In short, Pleto, it is possible to believe in art and morals, etc. without believing in God.

Therefore, it is possible to be an atheist and believe in art, morals, etc.

Therefore, the people who say they are atheists, are atheists, because your idea that you cannot believe in art, morals, etc. without believing in God is crazy, dude!


And I just have to say, I can't see why everyone's getting so het up. Pleto's views might be crazy, but he's been as polite as pie in putting them across.

[Owskie]

I have no religion as i believe that religions are labels, and i do not believe in labels.

[Erwin_Br]

Erwin is such an asshole.

Thanks! (I think...)

--Erwin

[twifkak]

Originally Posted by Owskie

I have no religion as i believe that religions are labels, and i do not believe in labels.

All right, Owskie.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Owskie

I have no religion as i believe that religions are labels, and i do not believe in labels.

I agree. The last thing I'd want is 'Abercrombie & Fitch' slapped across my chest. Brrrr!

[Owskie]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

I agree. The last thing I'd want is 'Abercrombie & Fitch' slapped across my chest. Brrrr!

lmao
+6 extra letters so i can post..

[pleto4_ryan]

Originally Posted by Nellie

Pleto believes that God is in various things - ourselves, our goodness, art, etc. Therefore, to Pleto, if you are artistic... you cannot be an atheist, because God is in art. If you want to become a better human being... you cannot be an atheist, because God is the root of us wanting to better ourselves. That's why he's so insistent that nobody is an atheist (and so when he says 'an atheist is like this', he is NOT intending to insult any of us who are atheists by the generally accepted definition, because he doesn't believe we are atheists).

It follows that, using Pleto's definition of God, athiests can't believe in wanting to better themselves, and they can't be artistic, etc, because God is in these things, and they don't believe in God. That's why none of us is an atheist to him, because we all are artistic and we do want to better ourselves, etc.

Wow...tnxs Nellie. At last someone who read throught my posts before judging. Someone that read past the "i don't believe in atheists"

and at last 2 good posts...

Face it: though you believe god is nothing more than our collective self, the majority of the believing world thinks that god is some infinite guy with a beard who sits in front of his Enterprise level workstation in the clouds all day, hitting the Smite button.

The bad thing is that i thought that new persons had way better thought about god, than the one idea most believed in dark times...I believed that "all" the young people had been wanting to understand better. My fault, i always tend to put human at a godly place, that history learnes them... but as it was seen throught this thread, there are still many out there with old ideas. Maybe mine ideas are wrong, but can it be? I mean it's not just me, there are far more people out there seeing god in everywhere...
Anyway..

The trouble is, to an atheist God is in none of these things. We are artistic because the brain that we evolved makes us that way. We want to better ourselves because we intelectually recognise that to become a better person is a good thing, etc. So no, Pleto, to an atheist God is not in art, or in morality, or in our desire to better ourselves. Therefore it is perfectly possible for us to do these things and believe in these things without believing in God.
In short, Pleto, it is possible to believe in art and morals, etc. without believing in God.

You see, you have a right for those who misunderstand the role of the god. But let me make this small historical background of god. What was/is god?
At the start god was the thunder, the sea, the waves, the big bear up in the mountain, the snow, they believed in them because they were afraid.
After those thoughts, people, tryed to understand their world around and its "magic", so they created icons in their head about a supreme being that tells "all" those things around them to exist. Thus the first small statues appeared. With many different faces. Then human passed to making god more humanly. Ancient Greek gods, egyptian gods. They were many and little now, each and everyone having a different role, and all had the same feelings as humans, they could get angry, they could get jealus. After all that human reached the one god theory..(actually in the ancient greece there was a tomb for the unknown-only-god...greeks philocophers were quite in frond of their time)
So what is god? A thought that started by human to explain the unexplained. The thing that keeps the whole world in a balance (circle of life etc) God was also human himself but in a better version. God was the inner self of Human. Human created god to understand himself better...to try and see behind the curtains. Seeing thought the times you can see that the percpective of god changes as the inner self of humans changes (look again the ancient greeks who thought before all the others of a one-god, they were great philospophers and thinkers) (i could say it better, but writing down such a subject looses it's strength) thus i believe and i will believe that atheists don't exist. Atheists* that don't believe in the old guy can still happen of course...but atheists (truly ones) that believe in nothing at all...cannot happen

(i decide not to answet to some above post, firstly because they have 0% base of what i said and secondly, i don't have time to spent to such ways of seeing...who some here won't even read them, their ideas are firmly shut to the point of knowwhere, it feels sad to understand that young people are so mean)

[Mattsius]

I've read through (almost) everything in this thread and I must say that I'm shocked! I've never seen anything like this on AGers before, (it reminds me of some threads at JustAdventure+'s forum) and quite frankly I didn't think that I would live to see the day when I have to read a thread like this in this forum - so full of hatred! It makes me both angry and sad , as well as a bit sick.

[twifkak]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

At the start god was the thunder, the sea, the waves, the big bear up in the mountain, the snow, they believed in them because they were afraid.

As always, your posts are more loaded than you intend. This sentence, in context, (maybe unintentionally) implies that such a view is primitive. In fact, surviving cultures still practice this belief system (might be too strong a term..), and are able to coexist with the typical "western" cultures at the same time. A good example of this is the Australian aborigines.

Of course, a year ago I didn't know that, so I'm not blaming you for not knowing that. Rather, I think it's best to assume that if something's possible, it probably is.

Originally Posted by pleto

After those thoughts, people, tryed to understand their world around and its "magic", so they created icons in their head about a supreme being that tells "all" those things around them to exist. Thus the first small statues appeared. With many different faces. Then human passed to making god more humanly. Ancient Greek gods, egyptian gods. They were many and little now, each and everyone having a different role, and all had the same feelings as humans, they could get angry, they could get jealus. After all that human reached the one god theory..(actually in the ancient greece there was a tomb for the unknown-only-god...greeks philocophers were quite in frond of their time)

I don't think the chronology is nearly as simple, but I'm not an expert.

So what is god? A thought that started by human to explain the unexplained.... Seeing thought the times you can see that the percpective of god changes as the inner self of humans changes (look again the ancient greeks who thought before all the others of a one-god, they were great philospophers and thinkers) (i could say it better, but writing down such a subject looses it's strength)

All right, I'm with you so far.

Originally Posted by pleto

thus i believe and i will believe that atheists don't exist. Atheists* that don't believe in the old guy can still happen of course...but atheists (truly ones) that believe in nothing at all...cannot happen

You lost me.

Originally Posted by pleto

(i decide not to answet to some above post, firstly because they have 0% base of what i said and secondly, i don't have time to spent to such ways of seeing...who some here won't even read them, their ideas are firmly shut to the point of knowwhere, it feels sad to understand that young people are so mean)

You didn't respond to my post. Did you consider what I said mean, or are you responding to those that referred to your comments as "hateful" and "offensive"? (My thoughts on the matter will remain my own, for the time being. )