[Wajus]

Originally Posted by Chrisse

You're wrong. They do collide. According to the evolution theory we are all animals, we once were monkeys. The bilble however, doesn't label us as animals, it tells us that God separated us from the animals, that humans are above the animals. He created Eve (human female) from Adams (human male) spine, not a monkeyspine. And if I'm not wrong, Adam was created by soil.

In my opinion, you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution, cause they do collide.

You're taking Bible way too literarly you know?. Why do you think I'm wrong when I'm talking about something I know from from my own expierience. It is all easily explainable.

Just imagine: God created monkeys and then from them he created men - it doesn't label us as animals. It's not like church denies evolution - fortunettly we are years past this dark period. But unfortunetly there are some blind fanatics in this world who think that they own the monopoly to the only right interpretation of Holy Bible.

Now imagine that God created universe through Big-Bang also. Imagine the life that was created by God (science still - and porpably never will -can not explain when and how life emerged) and then he allowed the evolution (his tool or masterplan) to work.

You are the first person who tells me that this could not happen. Even though you're not even catholic. The case is that non-orthodox/fanatic CATHOLICS DO BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION. Church oficialy admitted that evolution does not collide with procreationism. Let me ask you something my dear. What are you trying to prove?

Science and religion can co-exist. And I'm not talking bout "L Ron Hubbard and all his clones" approach.

[pleto4_ryan]

Originally Posted by Chrisse

I've never said the galaxy was created in seven days.

Just asked if you believed it

---------------------------------

And no, I don't believe in God, so I don't think he/she/it (or whatever you believers call this) did the big bang. You must be mixing my threads up with someone elses.

Ok, let's think that you believe in some god...ok?

now if you believed do you think the Bible sais something different from the scientists?

-----------------------------------

Your definition of an atheist is wrong.

Probably to the definition of a dictionary yes.(and actually i just take this meaning and drive it far into the horizon) But why is it that i thought such subjects never can be described perfectly with words

Anyway, i am just here to talk...not change anyones idea, nor force anyone... , i just LOVE having an interesting dialogues...

[Erwin_Br]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

Probably to the definition of a dictionary yes.(and actually i just take this meaning and drive it far into the horizon) But why is it that i thought such subjects never can be described perfectly with words

Anyway, i am just here to talk...not change anyones idea, nor force anyone... , i just LOVE having an interesting dialogues...

A rational conversation is impossible if you don't apply the same definitions to words.

I mean, that's like calling you an asshole while saying: for me the word asshole means 'great guy' and I don't care what the dictionary says.

--Erwin

[Chrisse]

Originally Posted by Wajus

You're taking Bible way too literarly you know?. Why do you think I'm wrong when I'm talking about something I know from from my own expierience. It is all easily explainable.

Just imagine: God created monkeys and then from them he created men - it doesn't label us as animals. It's not like church denies evolution - fortunettly we are years past this dark period. But unfortunetly there are some blind fanatics in this world who think that they own the monopoly to the only right interpretation of Holy Bible.

Now imagine that God created universe through Big-Bang also. Imagine the life that was created by God (science still - and porpably never will -can not explain when and how life emerged) and then he allowed the evolution (his tool or masterplan) to work.

You are the first person who tells me that this could not happen. Even though you're not even catholic. The case is that non-orthodox/fanatic CATHOLICS DO BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION. Church oficialy admitted that evolution does not collide with procreationism. Let me ask you something my dear. What are you trying to prove?

Science and religion can co-exist. And I'm not talking bout "L Ron Hubbard and all his clones" approach.

You're right. I'm no expert. I do talk Bible way too literarly. I'm not trying to prove anything. In fact I don't think I can. I must admit I don't know very must about church today. They keep changing their versions.

I'd like to correct you however. I never said Science and religion can't co-exist. I said theories collide. Here's a difference I think.

How come we only imagine? You said you knew from your own experience.

"Just imagine: God created monkeys"

"Now imagine that God created universe"

Scientists don't imagine that gods/something did this and that. They rely on the facts they know is true to our lives. For example: the apple will likely hit the ground when it falls from the tree. They use the patterns they know exist in the nature. Study a snowflake up close if you want to see patterns. And this is just the beginning when it cames to natural patterns. These things are really fascinating.

Why I believe you're wrong when you say theories don't collide is because I'm a logical thinker. I see life in these patterns, that do exist.

I know these were no good answes to your questions. But I'm no expert as I said. Just my personal opinions, from what I do know.

[Firefoot]

Theoretically I'm a Christian (born and raised)... but IRL I'm an atheist...

And for the rest... I don't want to get involved in another religion discussion... had more than enough of them...

[Wajus]

Originally Posted by Chrisse

Scientists don't imagine that gods/something did this and that. They rely on the facts they know is true to our lives.

Yes they do. Because sometimes there are things they cannot explain by science and logic. Actually scientists - if they ain't no atheists or sceptics - when asked about something they cannot explain by reason they do explain it by saying that "God did it!". There's no better completion for science than religion really.

[pleto4_ryan]

mmm....


Science is for the mind

Religion is for the heart

they talk to different places...they don't even collide to any subject, because there isn't a subject they have in common

[Wajus]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

mmm....


Science is for the mind

Religion is for the heart

The way I see it you are waaaay too frivoluos when it comes to categorizing things.

they talk to different places...they don't even collide to any subject, because there isn't a subject they have in common

Apart from the nature of the world and our place in it. Yeah, apparently that's nothing at all...

np APC-13th Step

[emma]

*ahem* Like I said before, there ARE actually scientists around that believe in God.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I consider myself a spiritual individual, but I do not subscribe to any one religion. Each one has its annoyance - i.e. certain people who have the audacity to think they have The Answer - which leads to wars, genocide, and general human misery. I'd rather have a religion where no one is allowed to be in any position of authority, misinterpreting the dogma to their own advantage.

[Egarthen]

Originally Posted by Wajus

Science and religion can co-exist. And I'm not talking bout "L Ron Hubbard and all his clones" approach.

You left the first word off of that little quote

[James]

"Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters" - Bob Dylan.

Religion should be seperated from politics. The events of the past to which you make reference are based on a society ruled almost by theocracy, for example the christendom of the middle ages. i dont think, given cultural and ethnical diversity present these days, that this is viable in the western world.

[Wormsie]

Pleto, where you go wrong is that you think your theory is correct. That's what it sounds like, at least.

Oh it's so nice of you

How nice of you to say that we are murderers that have gone through lobotomy.

a human has this inner feeling of a supreme being

Don't tell me what feelings I have and don't have.

SO when someone doesn't believe in a god, or just say a supreme power that created this world we live in, then his mind doesn't believe that the "creations" around us where made for good, thus he is emptry.

Again, how can you know what I feel? Your image of god is obviously something quite strange.

A person "cannot" leave without believing in something. Believe in natur, believe in his father's love, believe in his brother being an angel...If you sit and talk with an"atheist" you will soon see that they do feel something about something...And that's what humans named god over the time...What do you think god is really? An old guy, or our inner selfs?

You assume that if you don't believe in gods, you can't believe in anything else either, because god ceated everything else. You also say that people themselves created god: "Most GODS(god) that exist in human mind are GOOD, they are created by human so as to feel safe in his little home." That's very interesting. We created gods that created everything else... no, I don't understand you. I think my own theory makes a lot more sense, but please don't ever call me a murderer again.

do you think Scientists who only believe in logic are atheists? No they are not, they believe in their science and to something more

You must know a lot of scientists. Maybe you think scientist are gods? Because scientist are used to prove everything these days.

[Wajus]

Originally Posted by emma

*ahem* Like I said before, there ARE actually scientists around that believe in God.

Yeap that's right folks. But I think this should be more than obvious. Scientists are poeple also. It's doesn't sound unbelieveable I hope.

I consider myself a spiritual individual, but I do not subscribe to any one religion.

Brother in Deism!

[Marek]

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

there isn't a subject they have in common

Actually, I couldn't disagree with you more. Science is almost like a religion, where "God" is replaced with "objective knowledge" and its followers have the utopian belief that through the pursuit of knowledge everything can and should become better in the future.

You actually contradict yourself since you also said:

Originally Posted by pleto4_ryan

do you think Scientists who only believe in logic are atheists? No they are not, they believe in their science and to something more

Which leads me to ask you: have you actually thought everything through or are you just here to piss everyone off? I keep having the feeling you're just saying things for the sake of saying them. Or am I wrong?

[Tanukitsune]

I'm tecnically a Catholic, but I think we all have our own "bible" in our minds, for agnostics and atheists its just a buch of morale codes and rules (don't kill and don't steal), but most religion are just that, but with a God.
Even people within the same religion have different "bibles"...
Here is an example: Thou shall not kill
My brain: "What! Oh my God! Do they mean not kill anything? I stepped on a roach! Wait, wait! What about bacteria? I'm not allowed to kill bacteria? But my body does that automatically! Maybe they mean "Thou shall not kill other humans"?
The more I think about it the less I want to think...
Gluttony is a sin? Then Ice Cream is a sin! How come the pope allows ice cream in the Vatican?
I have not read the Bible and if I ever do, I will probally become an atheist
So I guess I am a Cristian of the "I don't want to Hell kind"
I am also a "Murpyologist" and think the laws of Murphy prove the exitence of God, and that he is enjoying every moment of his existence...
Some of you may think this is sacrulegeous, but I think there is no way God would make lust a sin! With no lust, there is no reproduction, and no life...
I don't think God is agaisnt condoms and contraceptives, he knows what over population and VD is...
Should I go to Hell for saying this? Wait the Pope said the is no Hell, "hell" is being seperated from him...
Yep, he is EVERYWHERE yet we can separate from him...
Am I in trouble?
Just think about my "bible" theory... Two people from the same religion can have opposite vision of God (one might think he is forgiving, and the other thinks he will smite all)
Man this subject is delicate....
And if you think I AM sacrilegeous (I wonder if its spelled right?), then blame it on Terry Pratchett's Small Gods

[pleto4_ryan]

Or am I wrong?

yep, i am sorry to name you marek-lord wrong. But ALL those thoughts i have gain them throught time of thinking..and not just accepting others saying...

Just trying to gain more ideas...and lending my thoughts with others. But i quess some people are way too on the hot coals about some things...oh well...

or are you just here to piss everyone off?

I never want to piss anyone, thus i always talk with a way the other can not be pissed, why they do i don't understand. In reallife they don't...

I keep having the feeling you're just saying things for the sake of saying them.

If you knew me better you'd understand that i don't have a good feel towards these kind of people. Annoying...

Actually, I couldn't disagree with you more.

Disagreeing is good, one of the best in the world (healthy dissagreement of course) But here you got them false. I actually said that that's what they do (some scientists)
But i also know scientists that say, "God is there" because they have encountered things that cannot be understood...

The truth is that they don't have anything in common, only human fault-houghts make them think there is something in common(and that's not personal, talking general)

I mean, look at it. I said it before, i will say it again.

(i am talking about what is truth, and NOT what some believe...okay?)
Religion is, was, and will be always about the energy around us, the "soul" call it as you want. It answers to the WHY? the FROM WHOME? the world was made.

Scienece was made to understand HOW the world was created.

The first is centered to "heart" again call it as you want. Calling heart the inner self is something most say.

The second centeres to the mind, and how it can understand the surrounding...

For the first ask a priest mostly a young one, the older most have SO OLD ideas

For the second one ask a scientist.

And to tell you. I had this knowledge from the junior school. Not even Junior high school. I guess greece is far better in education than others...

NEXT SUBJECT :

Pleto, where you go wrong is that you think your theory is correct.

I never said it is 100% right. And as in every asspect in life. IF i get a REALLY good explanation that is BETTER with more and GOOD based thoughts, i am ready to vaporise the previous idea, keep the "good" parts and accept something totally new. I DIE for new opinions, but unfortunately.....they don't come...

How nice of you to say that we are murderers that have gone through lobotomy.

is that what you understand i am sorry for you. Cause i feel a very viased soul in that body...thinking anything is bad the others say...I speaked of SOME who had these "problems" and actually believe in something...i made a comparison.

I wasn't talking about the people who claim to be atheists. ok?

Are you okay now, the temper fellt under the red sign?

Alright now that the blood's pressure is down a little, let's continue...

shall we?

Again, how can you know what I feel? Your image of god is obviously something quite strange.

Yes, you see i personally don't feel good to accept a story someone told me. I try to grap the best thing from each religion i see...Thus my opinion of god must be better than yours...Cause in comparison of you. I decided not to look over the History of a godly person ,and i accepted that something does exist, and of course search for its true purpose. You want an example...I totally NOT agree with the thing of the churches. The whole world is a church for me...(or whatever everyone calls the place to come closer to the upper place)

And yes, i have been in your shoes. Passed that phaze LONG long ago. And i know how it feels...I am not talking because i can, i am talking because i have been there... and l know better.I certenly don't believe i am a murderer....you know....do you find it logic to call myself someting like that....? NO of course not...

We created gods that created everything else...

Try to understand this a little and then maybe we will talk in another level...

Apart from the nature of the world and our place in it. Yeah, apparently that's nothing at all...

Please, don't make me repeat myself. read above

------------------------------

Why do i have the feeling noone TRIED to understand what i said, but they jumped to the "get-angry" condition? hmmm.....

I NEVER talked bad about atheists.
I said that there are NO atheists.
My opinion.
If you can i am ready you to show me the light (and i am not being sarcastic)
If you can talk about it as I try to talk about it, then a dialogue would be perfect. Stop pointing to the meanings of the words. I never said different meaning for the "atheist" i just worked it out. Something most people here have never thought to do...

Accepting your self as it is is one big Fault. Getting better by the day is our purpose in this planet...

NOW do your job and be better.
I want clever ideas, i want clever diabets, i want clever people.

(i am sorry for the little "angriness" that is on my post, but this has started getting out of the funny and going into the annoying part....)

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by Marek

Actually, I couldn't disagree with you more. Science is almost like a religion, where "God" is replaced with "objective knowledge" and its followers have the utopian belief that through the pursuit of knowledge everything can and should become better in the future.

Science isn't and shouldn't be a religion. There are people though that do think about science religiously. That is however as bad as the usual religions.

Knowledge is only good in the sense that it is nice to know more. There are no morals, no life guides tied to knowledge and science.

[Kingzjester]

Originally Posted by Tamara

...admittedly, I live in a more religiously conservative society than most of you guys.

I live in southern Texas. Nuff said.

Originally Posted by Chrisse

You're wrong. They do collide. According to the evolution theory we are all animals, we once were monkeys. The bilble however, doesn't label us as animals, it tells us that God separated us from the animals, that humans are above the animals. He created Eve (human female) from Adams (human male) spine, not a monkeyspine. And if I'm not wrong, Adam was created by soil.

Saying that the theory of evolution states 'we once were monkeys but then got better' is as dim and uninformed as saying that the bible says 'we once were angels, but got worse.'

Remixor, Christians endorse evolution in as so much as it is apparent that some traits do seem to take control through the entire population. However, they draw the line at the point where evolution is to blame for the whole diversity of the planet's ecosystem. What I see as the biggest problem of evolution through natural selection is the following: how come humans have 46 chromosomes and gnats have a substantially smaller number if we are one and the same? Hardly does this cast the whole theory of evolution down the drain, I am just skeptical about a facet thereof. Science doesn't explain (or at least I never found an explanation) for the increase in the number of chromosomes as we go up the branches of organization.

I've heard that argument way too many times: since every effect has a cause, then God was the initial cause. If everything must follow the cause-effect chain, then what created God? Why must there be a God to begin with? The universe could have started on its own. It could've always existed. There is a whole lot that is subject to error and chance: the universe could've started due to a 'random fluctuation of nothing' (as I like to term it).

As far as the difference between science and religion goes, scientific theorems can and do get proven wrong. That is what makes them scientific theories. But religion says IT AND ONLY IT HAS THE ANSWER - and therefore positions itself where it is impossible to disprove it - ergo science and religion are not the same on a very fundamental level.

Religious scientists never amount to jack shit. Trust me about this one, I was born into scientific circles. If they (i.e. scientists) are willing to trust authority in the form of their Bible or Koran or Torah or whatever - they are not very likely to question the faulty cornerstones of the scientific system. Even atheistic scientists - if they trust other forms of authority too much - tend to be mediocre scientists. You have to be an unadulterated skeptic to be a good scientist.

[Egarthen]

Does anyone but me really have no idea what Pleto is attempting to say? If you ask me, I don't think he does either, and is just trying to make himself seem smarter. Note the "Try to understand this a little and then maybe we will talk in another level..." remark when somebody pointed out one of the (many) contradictions in his arguments. It's basically saying "Since you don't understand my nonsense, you must be stupid." That's ALWAYS a great debate tactic.