[Eivind]

Hilarious! They should call themselves Mothers Against Art!
I find it hard to believe that the average teenager would find it even remotely interesting to put on Merzbow or Masonna on their stereos. And those artists probably wouldn't refer to their work as "music" anyway.

I really hope this is a hoax


Henke: Behemoth!!

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I'm a metal fan, more specifically, industrial metal. People generally don't like their music to be called noise, because it suggests that it is dissonance, which it definitely isn't. It also suggests that it's unwanted, which it isn't (to the people who are playing it). That it's unpleasant, which it isn't(to the people who are playing it). Noise is something you can be against, music is something you can dislike.

Noise (rock) is also a genre. (Or another box to put yer stuff into.)

[Aj_]

Well noise music is an acception, it's meant to be harsh, unpleasant, but it's still music, not dissonance, still wanted, and apparantly pleasure and pain aren't exact opposites.

I'm against torture, but not against torture...

[RLacey]

Of course, to suggest that music and dissonance are two separate things is itself a flawed position. The vast, vast majority of music contains dissonance (albeit often in a form that doesn't actually sound displeasing) if we take the term in its musical sense as being those "clash" notes that don't fit in the key, for instance, as opposed to the kind of consonance you see in more simplistic music.

Equally, if we take dissonance to mean an unpleasant noise then that also appears in music; I can't personally abide Schoenberg's atonal music, for instance.

I tend to be of the view that music is distinct from noise when it loses any semblence of form or structure, though I long ago came to the conclusion that these things are inevitably going to be subjective.

[Aj_]

I was more suggesting that you can't have music without any consonance.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by RLacey

I tend to be of the view that music is distinct from noise when it loses any semblence of form or structure, though I long ago came to the conclusion that these things are inevitably going to be subjective.

Yep, that's my general definition.

Jazz, techno, and electronic music can tend towards being "noisy" in the colloquial sense, but I can still hear how it is based in traditional music forms of melody and rhythm. Techno, in particular, is a great way to illustrate the mathematical trends of music (and physical dance) beat because of the way it's structured. (And if you simply want loud, IMHO nothing beats a top-notch barbershop quartet locking and ringing a chord with overtones in nothing but their own voices in a properly acoustic venue).

Most of the metal music I've heard, on the other hand, I find it hard to discern any pattern to it. I'm reminded of a TV show (I'll be darned if I can remember the name off-hand) where in one episode one of the characters listens to a metal song, and then goes out and records lots of random noisy stuff like banging on trash cans, screaming, cats fighting, etc. and passes it off as a song and it ends up being a big hit. Most of the metal music I've heard feels to me like people screaming (or singing atonally), playing randomly, and the only thing with a discernable pattern is the bass line, which the listeners around my parts inevitably play at a way-too-high out-of-song-balance level, further making the music sound horrible.

On the occasions I do hear a metal song that has melodic vocals (or at least vocals based off melody... *selective* dissonance is an old music tool, indeed) or instrument playing with a pattern, then I generally don't mind it (whether I actually like it not is based on the lyrics). But, as I said, generally metal fans seem to complain that sort of song isn't "metal".

There's nothing wrong with dissonance or atonality in small doses... much like profanity in speech, it can provide color and emphasis when used judiciously. But when a song, melody, (or genre) overdoses in dissonance and atonality... well, it generates the same feelings in me as listening to someone who swears every other word.

I have to be honest and say that, to me, most metal music does indeed sound like "noise". I am not going to lie for the sake of being politically correct and say it sounds like music to me (because it does not). Nor am I going to choose some euphemism when the standard definition of noise matches my perception of metal music just fine.

But, as I said, I find the crusade of this website to be misguided at best. Music is a subjective thing, and if someone else feels that metal *does* sound like music to them, and they enjoy listening to it, then I'm not going to begrudge them doing so. (Provided they respect other people around them while doing so, but that applies to anyone listening to any kind of music.)

To sum up... I am sorry if you find my personal perception of metal music as sounding like noise to be offensive, but it is simply my own honest experience, and is meant as a literal description, not as a "label" to crusade against. If you disagree then that is fine with me. It is certainly possible my perception of metal is just because I lack the ability to hear the elements of metal music the "correct" way.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

If you disagree then that is fine with me. It is certainly possible my perception of metal is just because I lack the ability to hear the elements of metal music the "correct" way.

If you can't listen to any metal, then it probably is.

I'm not a huge fan of metal in general, but there are a huge bunch of metal bands (probably most of them, really) whose music "is based in traditional music forms of melody and rhythm".
It's just harder to get because it's fast and loud, and therefore asks for more concentration (which is up to the listener to give or not, of course).

But maybe you could give well-known examples of popular noise-metal, and of metal that you almost found ok but were told wasn't really metal...

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Ninth

But maybe you could give well-known examples of popular noise-metal, and of metal that you almost found ok but were told wasn't really metal...

Hmm. Well, most of the metal music I've heard I've *overheard*, so I didn't commit the band or song names to memory. But ones I've specifically listened to on my own accord in the past, off the top of my head, some Nirvana, Metallica, KISS, Alice in Chains, Megadeth, and Black Sabbath, and I just never saw what the fuss was about (especially with Nirvana).

As for metal I've found OK... hmm. Again, just what I can think of off the top of my head... I like Aerosmith and Bon Jovi's 80s stuff a fair bit, I like some Guns N' Roses stuff ("Sweet Child O' Mine" and "November Rain", particularly), and I like some Pearl Jam ("Jeremy" comes to mind).

But then, I think they aren't really metal bands, are they? More hard rock. I can hear what I personally interpret as a bit of metal edge to them, but it's balanced by more traditional musical elements. It's "noisy" in a pleasurable way.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

some Nirvana, Metallica

I can only comment on those two...
Do you mean you can't hear melodies or a structure in what they do? Remember, I'm not talking about liking it or not, merely whether it could possibly be "noise" more than, say, some jazz.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I can only comment on those two...
Do you mean you can't hear melodies or a structure in what they do? Remember, I'm not talking about liking it or not, merely whether it could possibly be "noise" more than, say, some jazz.

It's been a while since I listened to them, but I remember them being more or less what I said... screaming, atonal, and/or mumbled/slurred singing, and random-sounding instrument playing. If there is a pattern, I'm personally ill-equipped to hear it... and even then the vocals would be a turn off (if a song has vocals, I prefer them to at least be understandable in a "what words are they saying?" sense).

I think Weird Al's "Smells Like Nirvana" song matches my personal commentary pretty well...

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Aj_]

Seems more like an inability to interpret sound and a personal dislike for most kinds of rock to me. I think most people can understand the lyrics to metal bands, as much as they understand people talking. Most of the bands listed aren't metal, but they're all rock.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Aj_

Seems more like an inability to interpret sound and a personal dislike for most kinds of rock to me. I think most people can understand the lyrics to metal bands, as much as they understand people talking. Most of the bands listed aren't metal, but they're all rock.

I do have some problems with my hearing... unless a person speaks or sings at least somewhat clearly I'll have some degree of difficulty making out everything they're saying. (Which is why I tend to prefer socializing online and hate things like talking on telephones, but that's another thread altogether.) But I don't generally have that much of a problem with most other non-metal/hard rock genres (including stuff like rap).

After all, most singers mumble or slur their words to one degree or another... whenever I sing myself people generally specifically point out the fact that I tend to enunciate everything very precisely. It's not that common to be perfectly clear lyrically, I don't think, unless perhaps you're a "stage" singer of some type. (classical, opera, broadway, barbershop, etc.)

As for the rock/metal thing... well, I already said that all the stuff I do like I get told isn't metal anyway, and is at most hard rock, which sort of proves my point. ;P Much like most people, I presume, I listen to whatever music I find appealing to listen to, and most of the time what I find appealing ends up not being metal or hard rock. (shrug)

I know plenty of people who find my love of things like barbershop, and appreciation of stuff like accordian and bagpipe music to be rather bizarre... and we've heard in this thread from people who don't like jazz (which I do like). It's all a matter of taste. Why get uptight because I don't like metal music?

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Aj_]

I'm not getting uptight about you not likely metal, I can't stand most metal, and I'm pretty sure that the only metal bands you've heard are Sabbath and Metallica, and one of those sucks balls. The "assertion that heavy metal music is 'noise'" is like saying a dog is a reptile, it's not a matter of taste.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I'm not getting uptight about you not likely metal, I can't stand most metal, and I'm pretty sure that the only metal bands you've heard are Sabbath and Metallica, and one of those sucks balls. The "assertion that heavy metal music is 'noise'" is like saying a dog is a reptile, it's not a matter of taste.

Well, as I essentially said earlier, when I think of my personal experience of listening to noise, and I think of my personal experience of listening to most metal, the two are similar enough for me to also consider "noise" an accurate vocabulary word for my experience with the latter. Furthermore, most metal sounds to me extremely different than what I would generally describe as "music"... at least in the sense that the match between "noise" and "metal" is much higher for me than "music" and "metal". Your personal tastes and definitions obviously differ.

As I already said, I am not using "noise" as a metaphor or euphemism for dislike... for instance, I dislike most country and rap music, but I do not think either sounds like noise.

However, if you can suggest a different descriptor that I find matches my personal experience better, I shall certainly adopt it.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

As I already said, I am not using "noise" as a metaphor or euphemism for dislike... for instance, I dislike most country and rap music, but I do not think either sounds like noise.

I wasn't using reptile that way either.

How about the vocals are unintelligible, and the music is just dissonant sounds to you.

Of course, having only listed two metal bands Metallica(maybe you filter out the whine of Lars Ulrich) and Black Sabbath(Ozzy Osbourne is quite unintelligible, especially as he got older). Nine Inch Nails, Genitorturers, Nightwish, Lacuna Coil, have vocalists that are definitely not unintelligilible(they might shout a bit). It is definitely a new style of music, and it's definitely not like traditional music (however a lot of it could be compared to electronic, jazz, and techno).

Grunge bands, not metal, like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Alice in Chains however(although the vocals have been mumbled in some songs from both bands), they don't sound the same. No patterns or links to traditional music? Grunge? Wha?

I feel like I'm arguing what the colour of something is with a colour blind person. I can't see how you can apply a word like specific noise(unwanted, or random sound) to a music genre.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I feel like I'm arguing what the colour of something is with a colour blind person. I can't see how you can apply a word like specific noise(unwanted, or random sound) to a music genre.

Because the existence of a name for a group of similar sounding recordings doesn't mean that the result is music.

Is John Cage's 4:33 really music? I'd argue not, though I know people who would say that it is, and it fits into a music genre known as Experimental Music. OK, so this piece is about the absence of any sound (or, arguably, about the background noise that almost always exists around us), but the point stands.

Equally, someone hitting a lot of pans at random could be described as music by its creator, but I suspect that a lot of people would hear it and say that it was noise.

[Orange Brat]

The Radiohead At Ease site recently posted a short article on this group. I've never heard of them before, so hearing about them twice in a week is a bit strange.

http://www.ateaseweb.com/news/archiv...rs_against.php

They use alot electronic noise and noise imagery within compositions and it may on the surface seem harmless but once our kids get hooked on dissonance they will only go further down the road for a bigger kick. If your child only has pop records and a Radiohead record, it might not be too late to save them.... please remove Radiohead CDs from their music collection.

[Aj_]

Silence is part of music. Is a blank sheet a painting, or blank pages a literary work? No... I'm sure some people out there would argue it is, they might be insane. It's about breaks from sound, not absense of sound.

As for background noise, it's random and non-organised. Someone randomly doing anything that makes sound can't be music, however it can be experimentation to eventually make music. People might describe any music as noise, but some just use the music they are used to as a basis for it.

If music can be described loosely as a language(and I believe it can, but making sure that loosely is underlined) then no one was ever able to communicate by randomly hitting things or not doing anything at all.

[RLacey]

But there are lots of people that would argue that 4:33 has an important message, because it gets us to look at the world around us. It also tells us about how easy it is for talentless people to make money writing and selling copies of their "work" .

[Aj_]

I believe the first time I heard about 4'33 was on the bbc when someone else was sued(!?!) for copying it.

I'm pretty sure if you called some dog crap art someone would buy it.