[SamandMax]

No one's going to have the same music tastes so it's pointless to complain about bands we don't or do like. Everyone's got the right to listen to whatever music they want to. Even bands like Ratt and Air Supply.

[myhrik]

Sure, you don't have to actually *like* The Beatles, but to deny that they evolutioned popular music to great lengths, and dared to go into unknown territories - if I may say so - to deny their brilliance, is downright wrong.


(PS: I haven't always been a Beatles "fanatic" you know. I was once one of them who generally thought of their songs as "nothing really special" and "overrated" - a view which was, obviously, shaped by what songs you usually hear on the radio, the early hit singles and such. One day some three or four years ago I found my parents' Abbey Road LP and put it in the LP player... out of curiousity... After listening through side 1 my view of The Beatles had changed forever.)

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by myhrik

Sure, you don't have to actually *like* The Beatles, but to deny that they evolutioned popular music to great lengths, and dared to go into unknown territories - if I may say so - to deny their brilliance, is downright wrong.


(PS: I haven't always been a Beatles "fanatic" you know. I was once one of them who generally thought of their songs as "nothing really special" and "overrated" - a view which was, obviously, shaped by what songs you usually hear on the radio, the early hit singles and such. One day some three or four years ago I found my parents' Abbey Road LP and put it in the LP player... out of curiousity... After listening through side 1 my view of The Beatles had changed forever.)

Could you please elaborate about these unknown territories that you speak of.

Let me get my stance on The Beatles as clear as possible.
I have been listening to The Beatles since I was 10.I was a Neo Beatlemaniac..so to speak.I have a scrap book in which I've pasted newspaper cuttings and pictures and what nots.I have all their movies.The only thing I don't have is the Anthology DVD.I adore The Beatles and anyone who denies their Brilliance and/or Influence has either not listened to them...at all.Or just likes to think that Beatle-bashing is cool.
However, in retrospect...I find that the songs I take the time and listen to..have one thing in common..they are simple.Be it Here,There and Everywhere from Revolver,The Long and Winding Road from Let it Be,P.S I Love you from Please Please Me,Maxwell's Silver Hammer from Abbey Road among others.I'm not saying this is a bad thing mid you...as remixor has clearly pointed out...they made their intricate material sound simplistic.This requires great talent.Or do you have an example of the Beatles

And I think my saying their music is simplistic is a rather relative term.For you see...once you listen to guys like Yngwie Malmsteen and see them pull off killer Arpeggios,shreds and taps..and double taps ..The Beatles do sound simple.
But as I said before..there is beauty in this simplicity.And the beauty of Malmsteen's stuff is its complexity..and how I try to dismember each and every note that he plays and try to figure out what the guy was on while playing the guitar.

The music of the Beatles lives on because of its simplicity.It does'nt matter what venturing into unknown territories they did a couple of decades back.This doesn't matter to a guy who picks up his first Beatle Album today.He won't think about how the Beatles tried to break away from the pack in the 60s.What will matter to him is the music on the album.How utterly simple and beautiful it is.I've seen Pink Floyd do much...much experimental and crazier stuff than the Beatles.They truly ventured into unknown territories.Yet you will find that they are not as universally accepted as the Beatles.Their music was not simplistic...they didn't want it that way.


I do not expect you to agree with me...or anyone for that matter.But this is what I believe.

[myhrik]

OK, mycroft, I understand what you mean now. It seems we didn't mean the same thing with "complexity". As Remixor earlier pointed out - The Beatles have never been instrumental virtuosos, and that has never been their point either. If you thought that with "complexity" I meant virtuoso Malmsteen solos, then you either misunderstood me, or I wasn't being clear enough. The Beatles' playing style IS simple. Hell, Ringo Starr might be one of the most simplistic drummers ever, but what he does works for the band, and it sounds just right. But their songwriting evolved into something that was not that simple at all, but full of clever solutions, chord progressions, arrangements and orchestrations, mood & tempo changes... Stuff considered quite remarkable in popular music at the time. But - as you say - their *playing style* was always about sheer simplicity (perhaps not counting Paul McCartney's bass lines, which are veery clever). Of course I don't listen to The Beatles to listen to complicated music. If I wanted to listen to complexity for complexity's sake, I'd listen to Dream Theater. Which I have no desire to do. No, I listen to The Beatles because of their huge arsenal of great songs. I know about Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and all the complex progressive bands of the 70s as I have listened quite a lot to that stuff myself. Musically more complex than The Beatles, obviously. But then again, their intention was never to create pop music for the masses. The Beatles started out as a pop phenomenon, and eventually turned out to grow musically in lots of unexpected directions.

About those previously unknown territories. These are not the most important things about The Beatles' music, but it makes it all the more interesting that so many "first-timer" moments in pop music history are credited to The Beatles. Sgt. Pepper - one of the most important, evolutionary albums ever. Some call it the first "concept album" although I do not entirely agree with that (neither do The Beatles themselves). Nevertheless the "concept" of the album should already be known to most people - The Beatles releasing the album under a fictious band name and basing several of the tracks on their characters FOR STARTERS. I'm sure you can read lots of books on this album and its historical importance if you really want to... The Beatles were the first do do promo videos, a decade before most people followed. Helter Skelter is considered one of the very first hard rock songs, and also features the first FADE IN in pop music history. Revolution 9, the penultimate track on the White Album is simply 10 minutes of sound samples and noise... Was that usual on a pop/rock album at the time? I Want You (She's So Heavy) - in the end, it just cuts! Right there! Oh, and... heck, I don't have an encyclopedia of everything they done which was considered "turning points" in pop history, but I'm sure there is a list somewhere...

Sure, a listener of 2003 may not be interested at all in popular music history - he/she might just care about the music and that's it. Fine by me. But I'm not like that. If I'm to listen to an album one of the first things I have to know is "when was it released?". Simply because to get the most out of an album you always need to see it in the context of history. I don't mean to be over-analytic, because I really don't fancy that, but music is one of the few things I really care about, and such "details" (call them that if you like) matter a lot to me. Music is music you might say, but it's not always that simple. The music of The Beatles (or Frank Zappa, Pink Floyd or whatever) may be timeless, but historyless? No Siree.

[remixor]

I'm not going to bother with lengthy responses at this point, but I'd like to point out that there is a BIG difference between instrumental virtuosity and complexity. I do not find the music of Stevie Ray Vaughn to be particularly complex, yet it is certainly virtuosic. It's ok to appreciate that kind of virtuosity, but to label it as necessarily complex is very much an oversimplification.

[myhrik]

Right!

Now why didn't I just write that instead of that overlong post?

[Bard09]

I actually decided not to tax my noggin and read the list. I am *really* out of the whole popular music circle (blame it on my sudden obsession with country and jazz).

I don't read Rolling Stone. Was it predominately a rock list? What about Miles Davis' Kind of Blue or Simon and Garfunkels' Bridge over Troubled Water?

Just wondering...

Music seems to get people riled up almost as much as politics and religion. It really surprises me sometimes.

If, however, a rap album appeared on that list, I'd probably have to go shoot myself.

[mycroft]

Hmm...
I don't want to get in an argument with a guy who calls himself Rock Star and works as a musician for ForeverDream.
You probably know more about music than I ever will.
It was just a case of simple misunderstanding.I'm too tired to explain it now.
I agree with you myhrik.And remixor.
I agree with all of you...

[Pappapisshu]

Originally Posted by Bard09

What about Miles Davis' Kind of Blue?

No. 12 if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Bard09

If, however, a rap album appeared on that list, I'd probably have to go shoot myself.

Why? I never quite understood the purpose of hating an entire genre. I don't like the thought of limiting myself within music. There's good stuff in all different directions. You just need to find it.

[Bard09]

Originally Posted by Pappapisshu

Why? I never quite understood the purpose of hating an entire genre. I don't like the thought of limiting myself within music. There's good stuff in all different directions. You just need to find it.

Like I said, people can get riled up over music, so I'll try to avoid the pedestal

While I actually agree with your comment, I think I dislike rap for more cultural/sociological reasons than from sheer spite over its music. A lot of it stems from my experiences in high school, where saying you liked music such as showtunes or jazz would get you a response like, "What the hell are you talking about? You never heard of Jay Z? He's piz'imp, MAN! You got to be some kind of fruit or something..."

If you can give me an original, unsampled rap album from an artist unpretentious about his own "music," I'd love to give that specific artist a shot. But as a genre I still despise the image-based marketing mechanic that rap music today has spawned. And, no, I'm not ignorant to the same trend in pop.

Hopefully I didn't make anyone too mad

[Tamara]

well, now that you've qualified your statement you make more sense I've no love for the mainstream rap that's played nonstop on the radio, and even less for the image, attitude and 'culture' of it. But if I said that no rap music, or music with rap influences, could be good, then I'd be being narrow minded.

(Incidentally, if you wanna try out a truly great rap-ish song, try 'Karma Hotel' from Spooks. As a band, they're very patchy .. incredibly variable quality .. but that particular song is great)

[Henke]

Originally Posted by mycroft

Hmm...
I don't want to get in an argument with a guy who calls himself Headbanger and frequents concerts as often as you do.
You probably know more about music than I ever will.
But...How exactly is Pantera responsible for the death of American Metal ?As far as I know American Metal has been dead a long,long time.Hell,I can't even think of an American Metal band right now to strengthen my point.Maybe Slayer or Judas Priest.These are two American Metal bands that I actually liked that I can remember.Err..can you name a few good American Metal bands.So that I may check 'em out.Do you consider Megadeth as metal ?

Most metal bands I listen to are European.Belonging to the Nordic region mainly.Therion,for example.America stopped making Metal a long time ago.It is now overrun by friggin' Alternative bands(I refer to them as 'kids with guitars').And don't even get me started on hip-hop and rap and reggae.

Let us see how many people I manage to annoy with this post.


And Henke...observe the last few posts to see what I meant by a debate over a conflict of musical tastes.This thread might just get hot.

Well there was more discussion about how we feel about different music in this thread then in the ones I were talking about.

I actually believe that one of the best metalgenres ever comes from America. Thrash metal was created in the 80s and in the front row were truly great bands like Metallica, Megadeth, Exodus, Testament, Slayer and Anthrax among others. They combined the new wave of brittish heavy metal (like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest) with american punkmusic (like Ramones, Black Flag and Misfits), all in the vein of Motorhead. Then the genre evolved after a while when it came over here. It slightly evolved the same way in the states (with bands like Cannibal Corpse) but somewhere there something went very wrong (IMHO that is ). A newer thrash metal band called Pantera started to take the music in another direction then its roots (which was the other way around what the new nordic bands was playing). They released a record that became popular in America, the major record companies decided that this is what we're going to sell to kids as the "new metal" (MTV!!!). Now, almost every band that comes from the states must sound like that (and it is really far from having any of the keyelements that metal was built around in the start). So I think that metal is dead and buried in the states. Hopefully it will rise again some day.

Still there is of course nothing wrong about liking new american bands (and Pantera) but to call them metal is a little wrong IMO.

Originally Posted by Pappapisshu

Why? I never quite understood the purpose of hating an entire genre. I don't like the thought of limiting myself within music. There's good stuff in all different directions. You just need to find it.

Well this list was suppose to contain the best rock albums so to have a rap album there would be kind of weird.

I completely agree with you that you must be open minded and try listening to all kind of music otherwise you will miss something. But I must also say that I like bands and artist from many different genres but rap/hip hop is the genre(s) that I understand the least about. In my ears it feels like it is the opposite of what it's trying to be. Which make it sounds pretty stupid and laughable. But then again, the problem probably lies more in me then in the music.

[myhrik]

Originally Posted by mycroft

It was just a case of simple misunderstanding.I'm too tired to explain it now.
I agree with you myhrik.And remixor.
I agree with all of you...

Hey, don't blame yourself, it might just as much have been my fault. I could have been a lot more precise. After all, I agreed with your last post, before my long one. I think we do agree. No problem.

(and even if we didn't, it still wouldn't be a problem)

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by Henke

Well there was more discussion about how we feel about different music in this thread then in the ones I were talking about.

I actually believe that one of the best metalgenres ever comes from America. Thrash metal was created in the 80s and in the front row were truly great bands like Metallica, Megadeth, Exodus, Testament, Slayer and Anthrax among others. They combined the new wave of brittish heavy metal (like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest) with american punkmusic (like Ramones, Black Flag and Misfits), all in the vein of Motorhead. Then the genre evolved after a while when it came over here. It slightly evolved the same way in the states (with bands like Cannibal Corpse) but somewhere there something went very wrong (IMHO that is ). A newer thrash metal band called Pantera started to take the music in another direction then its roots (which was the other way around what the new nordic bands was playing). They released a record that became popular in America, the major record companies decided that this is what we're going to sell to kids as the "new metal" (MTV!!!). Now, almost every band that comes from the states must sound like that (and it is really far from having any of the keyelements that metal was built around in the start). So I think that metal is dead and buried in the states. Hopefully it will rise again some day.

Still there is of course nothing wrong about liking new american bands (and Pantera) but to call them metal is a little wrong IMO.

Hmm...
I wasn't aware of the Pantera-MTV connection.I completely understand your point now.
Some truly great bands mentioned in your post btw.
So...uh...what concerts have you been to lately ?

Hey, don't blame yourself, it might just as much have been my fault. I could have been a lot more precise. After all, I agreed with your last post, before my long one. I think we do agree. No problem.

(and even if we didn't, it still wouldn't be a problem)

No problem dude.
And best of luck for Curves of Danger.

[syntheticgerbil]

No, mainstream rap made it on to that list. I can't remember exactly what but Jay Z was one of them.

as Del the Funky Homosapien would say though, there is no need for alarm.

[Henke]

Originally Posted by mycroft

Hmm...
I wasn't aware of the Pantera-MTV connection.I completely understand your point now.
Some truly great bands mentioned in your post btw.
So...uh...what concerts have you been to lately ?

I have actually missed some conserts I wanted to attend this month due to lack of money (I've bought to many movies and computer games ). The latest band I saw was Dimmu Borgir and that show was really great. I've missed Deep Purple and Danzig which I ain't to happy about.

Although I was at a kick-off party a few days ago where they announced some of the bands that were going to play at next years Sweden Rock Festival (which I wouldn't miss for the world) and there were some gigs there too with Doro among others. Although I was most excited about some of the bands that will play at next years festival. I really want to see bands like Opeth, Children Of Bodom and Nightwish again and of course the reunion of Judas Priest and Exodus which I haven't seen before. I will also deffinately not miss bands like Lumsk, Persuader, Paragon, Entombed, Lake Of Tears, Brainstorm and Memory Garden. It will be an exciting summer. 8-)

What concerts have you seen BTW? I know that you don't really live in the country with the most rock concerts but surely you have seen something?

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by Henke

I have actually missed some conserts I wanted to attend this month due to lack of money (I've bought to many movies and computer games . The latest band I saw was Dimmu Borgir and that show was really great. I've missed Deep Purple and Danzig which I ain't to happy about.

Although I was at a kick-off party a few days ago where they announced some of the bands that were going to play at next years Sweden Rock Festival (which I wouldn't miss for the world) and there were some gigs there too with Doro among others. Although I was most excited about some of the bands that will play at next years festival. I really want to see bands like Opeth, Children Of Bodom and Nightwish again and of course the reunion of Judas Priest and Exodus which I haven't seen before. I will also deffinately not miss bands like Lumsk, Persuader, Paragon, Entombed, Lake Of Tears, Brainstorm and Memory Garden. It will be an exciting summer.

What concerts have you seen BTW? I know that you don't really live in the country with the most rock concerts but surely you have seen something?

I really,really wish I lived where you do Henke.
In that one post...you have mentioned a lot of my favourite bands.I would really like to see them live once before I die.Europe is really thriving when it comes to metal/hard rock.I wish I could say the same for my pathetic country.
I can never,ever expect any of these bands to come here.

We only get washed-out guys here like Roger Waters,Rolling Stones,Deep Purple,Def Leppard.And I missed all of them.
But there are a lot of local metal bands here.So there are a lot of smallish gigs every now and then.There is one called the Great Indian Rock every year.The largest and most popular rock festival here.Spanning 3 days and approximately 18 bands.I have been going there religiously for the past 5 years.I was actually surprised to see a Death Metal band here this year.Apart from that there are a lot of concerts held in universities which are basically contests and the proceeds go to charity.I try to go to as many as possible.Entry is free. These guys mostly do covers of the bands you mentioned.
So..in one sentence...I go to second-hand concerts.

BTW.. So you missed Iron Maiden on the 14th and 15th (DoD tour) ? It would've been cool to listen to stuff like Paschendale live...*sigh*

[Henke]

Originally Posted by mycroft

I really,really wish I lived where you do Henke.
In that one post...you have mentioned a lot of my favourite bands.I would really like to see them live once before I die.Europe is really thriving when it comes to metal/hard rock.I wish I could say the same for my pathetic country.
I can never,ever expect any of these bands to come here.

We only get washed-out guys here like Roger Waters,Rolling Stones,Deep Purple,Def Leppard.And I missed all of them.
But there are a lot of local metal bands here.So there are a lot of smallish gigs every now and then.There is one called the Great Indian Rock every year.The largest and most popular rock festival here.Spanning 3 days and approximately 18 bands.I have been going there religiously for the past 5 years.I was actually surprised to see a Death Metal band here this year.Apart from that there are a lot of concerts held in universities which are basically contests and the proceeds go to charity.I try to go to as many as possible.Entry is free. These guys mostly do covers of the bands you mentioned.
So..in one sentence...I go to second-hand concerts.

BTW.. So you missed Iron Maiden on the 14th and 15th (DoD tour) ? It would've been cool to listen to stuff like Paschendale live...*sigh*

Yeah, I missed Maiden this time (I have just seen them so it felt a little overkill to go see them again right away). But DoD is a really great record. So you have a festival. Sounds cool. Is it that many local bands? Do you have any links to their websites or anything so I can check them out?

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by Henke

Yeah, I missed Maiden this time (I have just seen them so it felt a little overkill to go see them again right away). But DoD is a really great record. So you have a festival. Sounds cool. Is it that many local bands? Do you have any links to their websites or anything so I can check them out?

Yep...I'm really liking DoD.
I don't really care a lot about the local bands so I don't visit their sites.
However there is a site of a magazine called Rock Street Journal.It is always abuzz with activity.With people showing off their recently recorded stuff and trying to lure other band members.Also has info on the upcoming gigs and festivals.

Woohoo...it seems that 'my' band is progressing.I just checked the RSJ link and they were listed there.The band is called Decibel and I was a replacement vocalist for a while.We did Iron Maiden,Led Zeppelin,Megadeth,Testament and Slayer covers.I was present at almost every jam-session hereafter.But I became a little too busy with games..err...studies that I couldn't handle their schedule.They didn't even mention me...

[Henke]

Originally Posted by mycroft

Woohoo...it seems that 'my' band is progressing.I just checked the RSJ link and they were listed there.The band is called Decibel and I was a replacement vocalist for a while.We did Iron Maiden,Led Zeppelin,Megadeth,Testament and Slayer covers.I was present at almost every jam-session hereafter.But I became a little too busy with games..err...studies that I couldn't handle their schedule.They didn't even mention me...

Wow, those guys sure didn't look old. Are you still singing in that band, or were you just filling in for the real singer?