[Intrepid Homoludens]

There's another quest, part of a series to rank up in the Mages Guild, where you go into an Ayleid ruin and help a fellow Mage translate passages that will yield clues to help unlock a staircase to further the investigation of that ruin. Turns out you'll need to use four spells for it and if you do them out of order you'll get killed.

[SSH]

Sorry, came to this thread too late, so apologies if someone already mentioned this, but have you tried Dragonriders of Pern? It has some (ridiculously easy) combat, but otherwise combines RPG and Adventure.

But in general, I feel that if RPGs and Adventures make love, you always just end up with an RPG and the adventure gets pretty much squashed into oblivion. There are non-linear adventures that aren't RPG-like, and perhaps that is the better way to go.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Beyond Good & Evil gave us a taste of an RPG-like adventure game. KOTOR meshed adventure elements like puzzles
fleshed out characters, and emotionally involving stories with totally alive and explorable worlds.

Originally Posted by SSH

But in general, I feel that if RPGs and Adventures make love, you always just end up with an RPG and the adventure gets pretty much squashed into oblivion. There are non-linear adventures that aren't RPG-like, and perhaps that is the better way to go.

Not necessarily.

Which begs the question:

What would the likelihood be that if, say, a developer like Bioware, who is known in gamedom for their strong focus on story driven games ( they have a dedicated full-time writer on staff), decides to make an RPG-like adventure game, the elements historically associated with adventure games - story, intellectual challenges (with little or no action), freedom of exploration, back stories, strong characters - will be at the forefront of gameplay and experience while the RPG elements - skills and attributes management, upgradeable items, enhancements, quests, etc. - will move away from demandingly hardcore?

We sort of got a taste of that (albeit with few brain teasing challenges) in Beyond Good & Evil, and (with a more approachable stats system) in KOTOR.

[SSH]

While it is theoretically possible that a game like you describe can or will exist at some point in the future, it flies against the evidence of years of game development. You may claim that you have had an "experience" where games approached this divine state, but many claim to have had experiences which are equally unlikely and unverifiable. One might as well believe that as some point in the future Richard Dawkins will become Pope. It is theoretically possible, but all the evidence points against it. Belief in such a game is not only unnecessary, but dangerous, as all manner of suffering has been caused in the name of game development, not least to beta-testers. Using emotive terms like "Good", "Evil" and "Beyond" just muddy the whole debate...

[jacog]

SSH - I think you got your threads mixed up. In fact, I "believe" you got your threads mixed up.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

At least I got the bloke thinking, cogsie.

[Giligan]

Ah, KOTOR..... the only game I ever played that left me with memories fonder than those of my real-life experiences.

Wait... I probably shouldn't have admitted that....

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Giligan

Ah, KOTOR..... the only game I ever played that left me with memories fonder than those of my real-life experiences.

Wait... I probably shouldn't have admitted that....

I'm more than seriously depressed for you now.

[Giligan]

I should rephrase that.

EDIT: Actually, I was just having a bad day when I wrote that. Nevermind it all.

[Owskie]

Intrepid Homoludens

My appologies, I do not mean to come off that way. Things haven't been going great latley, and Im sure its been coming off in my posts. As an attempts to explain myself, as im sure I just hated on the game more than I actually hate it. As a (sorta bare bones) RPG, (i use that term loosley as there are many many things in Oblivion that they dont have in other RPGs), this game.. is, pretty amazing. Though Im more partial to 3rd person RPGS and the 3rd person in this game is lacking. I can overlook it. Theres all the leveling up, and what not and its done amazingly well. However as with me and Oblivion, is the same as me with Morrowind. I have no drive when playing these games to go explore. Sure, there are pretty graphics and more enemies to kill. That's not why I play games, and I don't play RPG's to level up and make a character. I have always and probably always will play an RPG for it's story. Including Anachronox, I indeed loved that game. So getting to deep and thoughtfull, this applies to the story alone, while it does have a story... its so bareboned to the point, where it paticularly doesnt matter. At least thats what I got from it. Bethesday could make a magnificent cinematic master piece, but they chose not to, and thats fine, maybe some people dont want story in their RPG.

I would also like to add, that many of the characters in Oblivion seem like they shouldnt have made it out of production, they all seem so contrived to me, and it takes away much of what I COULD get out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy these games I have been ranting on about latley, but they all do leave me feeling empty in some ways.

like adventure games and what kind of edge they'd have if they were made more like adventure games that feature such depth and richness and scope?

I've noticed that many of your posts (especially of late) are simply rants and whining without substance - that is lacking constructiveness. You need to give us more beef in such discussions or your posts risk being 'very shallow and contrived' themselves.

Back to Oblivion, sure, I see with what you guys are talking about,

THIS is the dynamic missing from so many modern adventure games, the sense of taking part deep in a living, breathing world.

I agree with this, and I do believe combinging that kind of thing would be absolutley amazing. It's just that I felt that Oblivion could have been much better than it was, maybe it was the hype for me, i am not sure. It just needs drive for me.

Interesting about Jade Empire, I have not played that yet, I'm going to have to pick it up.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Owskie

My appologies, I do not mean to come off that way. Things haven't been going great latley, and Im sure its been coming off in my posts. As an attempts to explain myself, as im sure I just hated on the game more than I actually hate it.

Il n'est rien. Hope you'll get on better.

As a (sorta bare bones) RPG, (i use that term loosley as there are many many things in Oblivion that they dont have in other RPGs), this game.. is, pretty amazing.

See, this has been what I've been trying to get across. There are things about Oblivion that seem elementary but, for whatever reasons, weren't explored nearly enough if at all. I don't know if it had to do with the constraints in time and budget or if it was simply neglect on Bethesda's part when they were able to work on it.

No, I am not trying to make anyone imagine a literal wholesale translation of Oblivion into an adventure game. That's not what I was doing and I think you mistook it to be. As it is, the game offers a huge amount of fundamental ideas to expand and deepen a more adventure-like game experience.

Though Im more partial to 3rd person RPGS and the 3rd person in this game is lacking. I can overlook it. Theres all the leveling up, and what not and its done amazingly well. However as with me and Oblivion, is the same as me with Morrowind. I have no drive when playing these games to go explore. Sure, there are pretty graphics and more enemies to kill. That's not why I play games, and I don't play RPG's to level up and make a character.

Yes, and that's your personal prerogative. Mine is leveling up NOT as an end in itself, but to get deeper into the world. There are certain things that are closed off to you until you reach particular levels. Why not import that idea into an adventure game in terms of character progress and achievements, but instead of cool new weapons and stuff, the rewards would be little stories that deepen the narrative, challenges that may adjust themselves to your level, and characters that may ally with you and have intriguing stories of their own.

I have always and probably always will play an RPG for it's story. Including Anachronox, I indeed loved that game. So getting to deep and thoughtfull, this applies to the story alone, while it does have a story... its so bareboned to the point, where it paticularly doesnt matter. At least thats what I got from it. Bethesday could make a magnificent cinematic master piece, but they chose not to, and thats fine, maybe some people dont want story in their RPG.

You are not the typical hardcore RPG gamer. Neither am I. And I think that's your problem. You enter the RPG game as someone with anamolous pre-determined expectations, and in the end begin bitching and whining that it's never the game you want it to be. Many RPGs exist not with you nor me in mind. I never play RPGs to achieve bragging rights about my level, I don't play them to get more powerful weapons, and I don't play to micromanage my stats and do complicated math.

That's why you have more of an affinity with a game like Anachronox, and why I'm more aligned with a game like KOTOR or Deus Ex. In several ways these games are, by choice, NOT RPGs in the most traditional hardcore sense, thus why many traditional hardcore RPG gamers bitch and whine about them and accuse them of being dumbed down for the masses. The fact is that they're not 'dumbed down', they are simply designed for people like you and me, who find over-complicated stats management and doing unnecessary math and obsessing over custom made characters to be boring, worthless, and distracting. We'd rather simply wander the world in search of new stories and characters to meet.

I would also like to add, that many of the characters in Oblivion seem like they shouldnt have made it out of production, they all seem so contrived to me, and it takes away much of what I COULD get out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy these games I have been ranting on about latley, but they all do leave me feeling empty in some ways.

Again, you're going into this with a pre-determined idea of how you want the game to be as informed by your ideas, not the idea of the developer. How unfair is that? It's basically a 'I-already-hate-your-game' mentality.

Back to Oblivion, sure, I see with what you guys are talking about,

I agree with this, and I do believe combinging that kind of thing would be absolutley amazing. It's just that I felt that Oblivion could have been much better than it was, maybe it was the hype for me, i am not sure. It just needs drive for me.

Again, I'm not for a literal conversion of Oblivion into an adventure game. Instead I'm for taking many of Oblivion's ideas for player freedom and customization and bringing them into a more adventure game type experience.

Interesting about Jade Empire, I have not played that yet, I'm going to have to pick it up.

Just do NOT go into it with a 'I-already-hate-your-game' mentality, okay?

[vivasawadee]

I'm coming a bit late here but some of my favourite games are love spawns of RPG and adventure games or action and adventure games or platforming and adventure games:

Deus Ex, Fallout, Torment, Psychonauts, KOTOR, Beyond G&E, ICO etc etc

All these games rock. We just gotta hope there are game designers who love these games and are actively making them RIGHT NOW.

Also my favourite combo is RPG and adventuring because you see your character(s) develop in a quantitive manner which for me is one of lifes simple pleasures. Well if it doesn't bring you any pleasure, why play the bastard things?

[CrimsonBlue]

Back in the day, adventure gaming was interactive stories to me. I mean, I loved the puzzles, and they were a huge part of me liking it (as I've always loved using my brain once in a while) - but the stories were important too. And humour, of course.

I remember feeling really really bad, when I read about the death of a colleague's daughter in Police Quest, and the scene in Police Quest III really tore my heart too. And those were comedy games (well, the first two were, PQIII was a bit more serious).

Ever since I discovered the adventure game genre, stories have always been a big part of my preferences of games. I just don't have the patience to read books, so I depend on story driven games and movies to get my fix. This is why I love Final Fantasy. KOTOR was great too, though the story was a bit soulless to me. I prefer Metal Gear Solid over Splinter Cell, 'cause we all know MGS crushes SC on the story-part - if you can call what SC has stories.

So, stories. Action games have them. RPGs have them. Some more involving than others. Final Fantasy has some of the most involving story-lines I've ever experienced. In short, I think if the RPG and the adventure game made love, they'd get Final Fantasy - or jrpgs in general.

[Owskie]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Il n'est rien. Hope you'll get on better.



See, this has been what I've been trying to get across. There are things about Oblivion that seem elementary but, for whatever reasons, weren't explored nearly enough if at all. I don't know if it had to do with the constraints in time and budget or if it was simply neglect on Bethesda's part when they were able to work on it.

No, I am not trying to make anyone imagine a literal wholesale translation of Oblivion into an adventure game. That's not what I was doing and I think you mistook it to be. As it is, the game offers a huge amount of fundamental ideas to expand and deepen a more adventure-like game experience.



Yes, and that's your personal prerogative. Mine is leveling up NOT as an end in itself, but to get deeper into the world. There are certain things that are closed off to you until you reach particular levels. Why not import that idea into an adventure game in terms of character progress and achievements, but instead of cool new weapons and stuff, the rewards would be little stories that deepen the narrative, challenges that may adjust themselves to your level, and characters that may ally with you and have intriguing stories of their own.



You are not the typical hardcore RPG gamer. Neither am I. And I think that's your problem. You enter the RPG game as someone with anamolous pre-determined expectations, and in the end begin bitching and whining that it's never the game you want it to be. Many RPGs exist not with you nor me in mind. I never play RPGs to achieve bragging rights about my level, I don't play them to get more powerful weapons, and I don't play to micromanage my stats and do complicated math.

That's why you have more of an affinity with a game like Anachronox, and why I'm more aligned with a game like KOTOR or Deus Ex. In several ways these games are, by choice, NOT RPGs in the most traditional hardcore sense, thus why many traditional hardcore RPG gamers bitch and whine about them and accuse them of being dumbed down for the masses. The fact is that they're not 'dumbed down', they are simply designed for people like you and me, who find over-complicated stats management and doing unnecessary math and obsessing over custom made characters to be boring, worthless, and distracting. We'd rather simply wander the world in search of new stories and characters to meet.



Again, you're going into this with a pre-determined idea of how you want the game to be as informed by your ideas, not the idea of the developer. How unfair is that? It's basically a 'I-already-hate-your-game' mentality.



Again, I'm not for a literal conversion of Oblivion into an adventure game. Instead I'm for taking many of Oblivion's ideas for player freedom and customization and bringing them into a more adventure game type experience.



Just do NOT go into it with a 'I-already-hate-your-game' mentality, okay?

I definatley understand what you are saying, though mind you, Im a huge deus ex fan, havent played the second yet. I never really went into Oblivion expecting to hate it, nor morrowind. I bought both the day they came out. I feel the company sets out to do some certain things with the game, and sometimes they dont deliver in those aspects and they over deliver (not a bad thing) in other aspects, because of this I think that everyone overlooks some of the bad things, the things they didnt deliver on, but maybe they didnt do this with Oblivion.

I actually am having a change of heart since I got my 360 back, now fixed. Im going to give Oblivion another go.

cheers