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Old 05-11-2012, 10:22 AM   #1
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Default Relate Adventures easiness and difficulties with Pros & Cons

as the title explains , i wanted to know how players relates easiness and difficulties of games to Pros & Cons .

for me easiness is always a con, though i see it these days becoming a Pros.

reviewers judges the length of the Adventure upon what? .. it is not a movie , a sierra game (some) would take 30 hours and more to finish (without a walkthough of course) due its difficulty, games now average between 10 to 14 hours Maximum !

i like to get stumbled and i like to try all possibilities out there in an Adventure, and feel/get really rewarded after , ... when i solve a puzzle my happiness (might sounds Strange) depends on how long i had been stumbled!!!
because that what keeps me going keeps me wanting and waiting for more.

on the other hand some players sometimes stays away of a game just because of its hardness... i know a lot of players whom neglected Myst and Riven Because of that,
maybe that is ok but when it becomes a trend of Developers,Publishers,reviewers and Players that is not OK (for me at all) imo
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:51 PM   #2
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I'd say easiness is pretty much always a con, but difficulty is not ALWAYS a pro. It depends on WHY it is difficult.

To my mind if a game is difficult to finish because there is some "mistake" you can make without knowing it (until much later) that makes winning impossible, then that's a con. If it is difficult because it isn't logical at all, that's a con. (And for me, if it is difficult because it is a hybrid that has stuff that requires difficult platforming skills of some kind at some point, that's a con.)

If it is difficult because the puzzles and challenges are well designed and take a lot of thought and attention, that's a pro for me.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post

To my mind if a game is difficult to finish because there is some "mistake" you can make without knowing it (until much later) that makes winning impossible, then that's a con.
you mean the Sierra early Adventures dead ends? .. then I totally agree that is/was a BIG Con ,
(you jump into the plane can not kill the bad guys because you hadn't adjust your weapon correctly before!!)

but all that is history anyways... but NOW when you hear someone saying this is a bad or worthless Adventure because its difficult , that really breaks my heart ... because when developers take this feedback they will eventually make their games easier and easier ,

like So Blonde i read 10s of comments saying it had a lot of backing tracks (which i dont mind as long its logical) and what did Wizarbox react then ?! ....they made Captain Morgane.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:31 AM   #4
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The biggest issue with modern adventure games is not from the puzzles being too hard. Most designers today know very well to avoid the cheapest aspects of classic adventures: unwinnable states and pixel hunting. (I HATE pixel hunting.)

The biggest issue (or more accurately: my biggest concern) is coming from making the games too easy by stripping away interactivity.

I think we're all spotting the emerging trend that's causing adventure games to be too easy by replacing conventional lateral thinking puzzles that are solved through exploration with 'follow the cut scene' reflex tests that's championed by Quantic Dream and spreading to Telltale Games.

Mind you, this watering down of gaming is a common theme with this gen. I think gamers are more entertained being spectators in big titles like Mass Effect, Call of Duty and Uncharted than actually being... well... gamers! And it's only natural adventure games are following this trend too since 'cut scenes' sort of became popular because of us.

However, this is removing the kind of challenge I like. The one where I click everything and have those 'eureka!' moments.

TL;DR - stripping away interactivity is a CON. expanding exploration in pursuit of overcoming an obstacle is a PRO.
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:59 AM   #5
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I don't like it when adventure games are hard. It's just an inconvenience to have to sit there with a walkthrough next to me all the time.

Games like Secret Files/Lost Horizon/Syberia are just the right difficulty for me.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:21 AM   #6
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Hrm... I also like to get stuck in a game, but only to a degree. For instance like in Botanicula: (which wasn't a difficult game to begin with) when the game has absorbed me I enjoy running into something tricky to ponder on. Reasonable difficulty is a pro. But crazy difficult is definitely a con. I'm thinking of the marble puzzle in Riven. I would never ever have managed it without a w/t. Luckily for the most time I don't mind checking some hints or a w/t in order to get past the puzzles that stumps me.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #7
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It is possibly an individual thing, I recall a lecturer from my post-grad days saying " there is no such thing as a hard question or an easy question there are only questions where you know the answer or you don't"
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harleyhog View Post
It is possibly an individual thing, I recall a lecturer from my post-grad days saying " there is no such thing as a hard question or an easy question there are only questions where you know the answer or you don't"
i wouldn't be happy trying Adventures which i know all its puzzles solution previously/easily
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #9
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Definitely like a challenge, but it has to be fair - when games don't give you sufficient info to help you progress, and you end up relying on blind luck/trial & error instead, it can be massively annoying.

Ahh that bloody marble puzzle, happy memories I wonder if anyone ever managed to complete Riven without resorting to a walkthrough. If so, they deserve a big bloody trophy.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:00 PM   #10
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the marble puzzle is very unique case can not be compared to any other one even at the rest of Myst series ..
i see Riven's all gameplaying consists of solving it (this marble Puzzle) only .

someone would say almost! but when i think of Riven i see one Big (Marble) Puzzle.

the least i can say it was not about solving the puzzle as much as understanding what is it !.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:04 AM   #11
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I enjoy fair and logical challenges. But I don't need them. If the story and/or the setting is good enough I don't mind easy games at all. I might get annoyed if I am constantly and directly told what to do but I mainly play for the story and experience, good puzzles then are just a plus.

I have played some harder games also and even enjoyed a few but when it becomes too frustrating - usually because there's some flaws in the design, sometimes because I'm just too dumb - I usually grab the walkthru without second thought.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:43 AM   #12
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I really enjoy being stuck in a game for a long time, but only if the puzzles solutions are logical and generally make sense (Riven for example). It becomes an enormous con when the sollution is illogical and there is no way of thinking the solution without a walkthrough (Discworld), or the hardness of the riddle is based to infuriating and unexplained mechanics (for example safe riddles in many adventure games are almost impossible to solve due to the fact that there is no guidance of HOW you put the code to the safe...).

However:
The level of difficulty is not always the only parameter in game rating! I prefer a game that takes 5 hours and offers me a trully unique experience due to other factors (gameplay, world,etc) like Botanicula, or the Dark Eye, to a game that lasts twice as long but without givng me the same game intensity....
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebaruk View Post
Ahh that bloody marble puzzle, happy memories I wonder if anyone ever managed to complete Riven without resorting to a walkthrough. If so, they deserve a big bloody trophy.
That would be me. I loved that game. That is precisely the sort of difficulty that I find a pro. Hard, but not impossible, and ultimately logical.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Ed View Post
That would be me. I loved that game. That is precisely the sort of difficulty that I find a pro. Hard, but not impossible, and ultimately logical.
not impossible that is for sure, but how long did it take to finish it ?.. that would be My Question Mr.Ed because it took me more than 2 months and also with one hint from a friend to notice
Spoiler:
the reflection of the other half of that fish in that cave
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventurere No.1 View Post
not impossible that is for sure, but how long did it take to finish it ?.. that would be My Question Mr.Ed because it took me more than 2 months and also with one hint from a friend to notice
Spoiler:
the reflection of the other half of that fish in that cave
I don't recall how long it took me. I'm pretty sure it was less than two months, though. Nowadays, with three kids on hand, I suspect it would take rather longer- if I didn't already know all the answers. Unfortunately, the harder a game is, and the more I have to think about it, the more likely I am to remember all the secrets after I'm done, making replay value a bit less.

However it is interesting that you mention that specific clue, as I DIDN'T actually notice it when I was playing until AFTER I no longer needed it.

Spoiler:
When I DID see it, I freaked my wife out, as I about jumped out of my chair with a loud "AHA!"-type noise. But I had already GUESSED the fish for that puzzle, since I knew it had to be an animal I had seen, and I remembered the fish hanging up in the village. Since that ball didn't have a sound associated with it, I figured I may as well try the fish, which I had never heard a sound for. Worked out for me, but I guess I lucked out in that regard, though it WAS an educated guess.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventurere No.1 View Post
i wouldn't be happy trying Adventures which i know all its puzzles solution previously/easily

I think you missed the point!
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:13 AM   #17
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excuse me if i did. Harleyhog,
but this was the answer i knew
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:34 AM   #18
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Mister Ed will have to share his prize as I too had to solve Riven alone. We had no internet at the time. I missed the clue too and it's been so long since I played it that I can't quite remember the mechanics of it or how long it took me to solve it, but probably a day or so. The "Eureka" moments were great.

It's still one of my favorite games because it was so challenging but completely fair and the graphics were gorgious and innovative for it's time.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventurere No.1 View Post
excuse me if i did. Harleyhog,
but this was the answer i knew

I was not aware that I had posted Question.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:48 AM   #20
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I see , but an answer would be considered a comment as well ... anyways its not a big deal ...it was just very confusing for me.
cheers
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