[Gonzosports]

I finished playing Heavy Rain this weekend.

My thought hasn't been is this the best adventure game of the year, but is it the best game of all-time. (my personal opinion, of course).

To say I loved the game would be an understatement, I was positively shocked by how brilliant it was – and that it did something that is all-too-rare in the interactive fiction world of computer games, it made you emotionally involved. And it did it in the third person.

I loved the characters and was nearly hyper-ventilating at the conclusion. At 5 am in the morning after playing all night.

Even better, the characters were fully fleshed out, real characters with real problems, and lived in a world filled with shades of grey. The dialogue was acted brilliantly, like no other game I've experienced, and the graphics are mind-blowing.

I have one minor complaint and that's simply that the science fiction eyewear that Jayden has seems a bit out of place for a game going to such lengths to occur in the real world.

What else can I say? I've waited years for a game like Heavy Rain. It's no surprise that it's the adventure genre that delivers it to us.

So – I've always said Riven is the best game of all-time, because of both the complex issues and emotional immersion it presents. Now, I couldn't tell you which I think is better, Riven or Heavy Rain.

What do these two games have that's so special? Neithers narratives are groundbreaking on their own (though I'll hand it to the Millers that the Myst universe is a brilliantly well-conceived fantasy environment), noir thrillers have certainly existed before and the themes in Riven are straight out of Heart of Darkness.

What's unusual is they make you feel these stories. The horror of what Gehn has done, or the tense anxiety of trying to save your child. So many games have attempted this, and so few have succeeded. The game succeed in making you feel as if you are a part of the action, Riven does this by making you the main character, Heavy Rain by allowing you to emotionally sympathize with the characters, and allowing your direction to so significantly shape its conclusion.

I've played it twice, the first time blowing most of the important moments and getting to the absolute worst endings (really, the bad endings are baaaad) and once with the possible best endings. I had to play it again to see the characters have better outcomes – I cared about them so much.

It's why I consider Heavy Rain to join the very small list of games I consider true art (it's up to 2 now). I'm sad the experience is over and games like this are so rare, because for one weekend I was reminded of what the medium is capable of.

[Gonzosports]

One last point, neither game is condescending and both don't flinch from examining mature themes. As much as I love adventure gamers, I'm tired of some of the unsuccessful attempts (especially the third wall breaking) at juvenile humor and how the games are often written for what seems like a grade school audience.

Those of us who grew up with Atari 2600s want games that reflect our own maturity!*





* or immaturity as the case may be.

[GhaleonQ]

Originally Posted by Gonzosports

examining mature themes.

I think you mean "mature content." There were no themes in this game (which I didn't recognize from your description, since, with respect, it's the worst game I've played this console generation [not that I seek out bad games, so it's relative]). May I make a suggestion? http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/lov.../lovedelic.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love-de-Lic Don't forget its spin-off companies, Skip, Vanpool, and Punchline.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376513 I wrote that about their best game, and an Internet friend wrote http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/moon/index.html . Skip to the end of mine to learn about their other games. Moon is very text-heavy and in Japanese (as are nearly all of the spinoffs' games), but you could still get parts of it from Wikipedia and GameFAQs. Love-De-Lic's other 2 games are 99% text-free, though, so you could play them today. They're brilliant graphic adventure games and I highly recommend them. Both tell far better stories with far more skill than Heavy Rain or Riven. If you don't want to buy/emulate them, you can watch them here: http://www.youtube.com/user/SketchesOfMoondays You seem like you're interested in the maturation of video games, so you'd like to catch up on (in my opinion) the frontrunners. Bonus: they did in the graphic adventure genre!

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

I think you mean "mature content." There were no themes in this game (which I didn't recognize from your description, since, with respect, it's the worst game I've played this console generation [not that I seek out bad games, so it's relative]). May I make a suggestion? http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/lov.../lovedelic.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love-de-Lic Don't forget its spin-off companies, Skip, Vanpool, and Punchline.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376513 I wrote that about their best game, and an Internet friend wrote http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/moon/index.html . Skip to the end of mine to learn about their other games. Moon is very text-heavy and in Japanese (as are nearly all of the spinoffs' games), but you could still get parts of it from Wikipedia and GameFAQs. Love-De-Lic's other 2 games are 99% text-free, though, so you could play them today. They're brilliant graphic adventure games and I highly recommend them. Both tell far better stories with far more skill than Heavy Rain or Riven. If you don't want to buy/emulate them, you can watch them here: http://www.youtube.com/user/SketchesOfMoondays You seem like you're interested in the maturation of video games, so you'd like to catch up on (in my opinion) the frontrunners. Bonus: they did in the graphic adventure genre!

Seems you misunderstand that "Mature Themes" are. Content generally means the way the world is presented to the player. Themes result in the sort of characters, story, and concept being told. Something more of art, than typical Anime-esque storytelling.

[Gonzosports]

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ

I think you mean "mature content." There were no themes in this game (which I didn't recognize from your description, since, with respect, it's the worst game I've played this console generation [not that I seek out bad games, so it's relative]).

I definitely meant "mature themes." The games tackle ideas of ethnocentricity (Riven) and morality (Heavy Rain). Although Riven is set in a fantasy universe, the ideas presented are both personal and political. In Heavy Rain, the idea of "how far would you go...?" for the people you love is an intriguing exploration.

I will definitely check out the games you mentioned, though I have to admit a bit of confusion - you consider Heavy Rain to be "the worst game I've played this console generation" while I consider it to be potentially the best computer game OF ALL-TIME. Seems like we might have very different opinions.

I am very interested in the maturation of computer games, especially when they approach the level of art. I've really only played two that day, and both of those, I think are in their own league. I wouldn't flinch from saying David Cage and the Millers border on genius for these two works.

[Thello]

Heavy Rain certainly hits a lot of the right notes, but it is by no means a perfect game. The voice acting in parts, especially the children, can be downright bad. Some of the accents, like that of the prostitute, are very poor impersonations. And there's the gaping plot hole regarding

Spoiler:

Ethan's blackouts.

Cage is an inexperienced writer, but he's getting better. Indigo Prophecy was abysmal in the story-telling department, so the leap from one game to the other is pretty substantial. If there's one thing you can give him credit for, it's that Heavy Rain does tension better than just about any game out there.

It's funny how much venom and hyberbole this tends to attract on adventure forums. "The worst game of this generation?" Give me a break. I'd need ten hands to count the number of horrendous budget titles released over the past five years.

[Roper Klacks]

Originally Posted by Thello

It's funny how much venom and hyberbole this tends to attract on adventure forums. "The worst game of this generation?" Give me a break. I'd need ten hands to count the number of horrendous budget titles released over the past five years.

I can understand why some people say that, simply because for some Heavy Rain isn't a game, but a interactive movie, so if you see it simply as a game it could be a bad one, cause its mechanics are so simplistic, almost non existent. I didnt' play Heavy Rain, i'm just stating what some gamers think.

[Thello]

Originally Posted by Roper Klacks

I can understand why some people say that, simply because for some Heavy Rain isn't a game, but a interactive movie, so if you see it simply as a game it could be a bad one, cause its mechanics are so simplistic, almost non existent. I didnt' play Heavy Rain, i'm just stating what some gamers think.

It's still a video game. Even (and excuse the comparison) Dragon's Lair is still a video game. If I had to compare it to anything, it would be a Bioware RPG with none of the combat but all of the choice. To call it the worst of this generation is typical internet nerd hyberbole.

[Hannes]

Originally Posted by Thello

It's still a video game. Even (and excuse the comparison) Dragon's Lair is still a video game. If I had to compare it to anything, it would be a Bioware RPG with none of the combat but all of the choice. To call it the worst of this generation is typical internet nerd hyberbole.

That's generalizing. If someone feels that way, then they do. I could say the same about ppl who call it the best game ever, and generalize, just like you.

There are thousands of different video games, and that's what they all are, despite how much you actually get to interact with the program. How good they are, is a completely different matter. I wouldn't call any game good no matter how great the graphics and story were if you're mostly just sitting there pushing the buttons like a robot, just to reveal more of the story. Just release the damn game as an animated film and the effect is exactly the same.

[Thello]

I am not generalizing when I say that calling Heavy Rain the worst game of this generation is hyperbole. That is far too strong a statement. Have you seen the amount of shovelware that gets dumped on the Wii at a near constant basis? Or the amount of crap in the very genre this site represents?

I have to wonder how much thought anyone puts into regurgiting the "animated film" argument. Player interaction is utterly crucial. This is not a movie. It is a game. Player choice is something film simply cannot do. You share the remorse your characters experience because those choices (or, perhaps more importantly, mistakes) are yours to make. You could boil any game down to "pushing buttons like a robot." Rock Band is exactly that, but the experience is significantly more complex.

[Hannes]

Originally Posted by Thello

I am not generalizing when I say that calling Heavy Rain the worst game of this generation is hyperbole. That is far too strong a statement. Have you seen the amount of shovelware that gets dumped on the Wii at a near constant basis? Or the amount of crap in the very genre this site represents?

I have to wonder how much thought anyone puts into regurgiting the "animated film" argument. Player interaction is utterly crucial. This is not a movie. It is a game. Player choice is something film simply cannot do. You share the remorse your characters experience because those choices (or, perhaps more importantly, mistakes) are yours to make. You could boil any game down to "pushing buttons like a robot." Rock Band is exactly that, but the experience is significantly more complex.

Again, it's an opinion and if someone feels this is the worst game they've ever played, then that's their opinion, and doesn't not equal what you said.

Interactive movie a term that has been thrown around a lot when talking about David Cage and his games. So, yes, it's more like a film that anything, and yes, it'd be possible to convert this into a proper film where a person watching it could affect the story by clicking the OK button on his DVD player remote when choosing what he wants the character to do. I'm sure it's been done before and it'd be easy (especially for blu ray discs), yet for some, utterly pointless. So, naturally an option for "just watch the damn film, don't interact with it" should be available.

Another thing, I don't see the point of giving examples of other games that are all about pushing the buttons but not REALLY interacting with the software. As I said, I do not like such games, I do not play such games and I do not rate such games well. It's a question of an opinion.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Hannes

Again, it's an opinion and if someone feels this is the worst game they've ever played, then that's their opinion, and doesn't not equal what you said.

Interactive movie a term that has been thrown around a lot when talking about David Cage and his games. So, yes, it's more like a film that anything, and yes, it'd be possible to convert this into a proper film where a person watching it could affect the story by clicking the OK button on his DVD player remote when choosing what he wants the character to do. I'm sure it's been done before and it'd be easy (especially for blu ray discs), yet for some, utterly pointless. So, naturally an option for "just watch the damn film, don't interact with it" should be available.

Another thing, I don't see the point of giving examples of other games that are all about pushing the buttons but not REALLY interacting with the software. As I said, I do not like such games, I do not play such games and I do not rate such games well. It's a question of an opinion.

Its an opinion, but 1+1=2 isn't an opinion. By comparing facts, you can learn that Heavy Rain isn't the worst game. In order to make this argument factual, we would have to compare it to what GhaleonQ thinks are good games.

Then again, we'd have to make the argument for the sake of facts and not opinions. In the end, it was all about opinions, so it really doesn't matter.

[Hannes]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Its an opinion, but 1+1=2 isn't an opinion. By comparing facts, you can learn that Heavy Rain isn't the worst game. In order to make this argument factual, we would have to compare it to what GhaleonQ thinks are good games.

Then again, we'd have to make the argument for the sake of facts and not opinions. In the end, it was all about opinions, so it really doesn't matter.

Most of the things said on most of the internet forums doesn't really matter, but it's a way to kill time. In any case, there's no such thing as a fact when it comes to personal opinions. If this person said he / she thinks the game is the worst ever, then we already know the answer to your question. He is the one holding the opinion and doing the comparing, and therefor his opinion is indeed a fact--- for him.

I don't think anyone can FACTUALLY claim "This is the worst game in the history of video games, and that's it".

[Luther10]

I wasn't even going to reply to this thread, but someone above called this game a button masher . And I thought that term is used exclusively for a selection of action games, I guess time has changed...

[Luther10]

Originally Posted by Hannes

As I said, I do not like such games, I do not play such games and I do not rate such games well. It's a question of an opinion. I ALSO DO NOT DISCUSS SUCH GAMES BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM SINCE I DON'T PLAY THEM![/COLOR]

Now that makes more sense, sorry I feel like I needed to add that in... Anyway I just don't understand why this game is such a magnet for negativity. And again, those who have not played the game just need to shut it. You're making us adventure gamers look bad...

[Gonzosports]

Attacking/defending Heavy Rain was not the point of this thread. In fact, this was a thread for people who loved Heavy Rain, like myself, to question whether it approaches the realm of true art - is it an interactive Double Indemnity or Silence of the Lambs?

Is it as good as Riven in exploring mature themes and inviting the player to become emotionally involved?

If you don't like Heavy Rain, fine, but blast it in the "HR is not an adventure game" thread. My personal opinion is that the "it's not an adventure game," "it's an interactive movie," arguments are not only wrong, they're pointless - I'm more concerned with the aesthetics, how we get there and how they're presented are certainly part of the game, but in this case, the way the game allows you to interact with the characters, especially how the tension of the game is matched by the tension of hitting a sequence of buttons completely works for me.

And saying it's the worst game of this console generation is both an opinion AND hyperbole.

So - seriously, is Heavy Rain art? I say yes.

[Hannes]

Originally Posted by Luther10

Now that makes more sense, sorry I feel like I needed to add that in... Anyway I just don't understand why this game is such a magnet for negativity. And again, those who have not played the game just need to shut it. You're making us adventure gamers look bad...

I hope this isn't taken as a personal attack or anything but I find your response incredibly childish. Had I not played Heavy Rain, I wouldn't be discussing it. As it was marketed as an adventure game, I wanted to play it. Had I known more about it I would've not bought it.

Originally Posted by Gonzosports

If you don't like Heavy Rain, fine, but blast it in the "HR is not an adventure game" thread. My personal opinion is that the "it's not an adventure game," "it's an interactive movie," arguments are not only wrong, they're pointless -

I find that very funny as David Cage himself has used that term when talking about either one of his games. BTW, I was not and will not "attack" Heavy Rain. I was talking about generalizing other people's opinions.

[Gonzosports]

Originally Posted by Hannes

I find that very funny as David Cage himself has used that term when talking about either one of his games. BTW, I was not and will not "attack" Heavy Rain. I was talking about generalizing other people's opinions.

Ok, so it's an interactive movie. It still has more possible outcomes than any King's Quest game (ie, more than 1). That being said, again, it's not the point of this thread. This thread is discuss whether Heavy Rain belongs in the echelon of games considered true art - as transcending just entertainment.

You disagree - instead of arguing what genre of game you think it belongs to (whether it's an adventure game or not doesn't mean it's good or bad) - why do you think it fails as art?

I believe it is exactly what an adventure game should be, and that it is, like Riven, true art, and I cannot wait for Quantic Dream's next project.

[Hannes]

Well I'm not here to argue about what is an adventure game and what is not, the only reason I ever commented was because someone was making really one sided comments about other member's opinion.

[RxBandits123]

I can completely understand if someone doesn't like this game because it is very much different then most stuff out there. Im actually suprised at how successful the game has been mostly because of the lack of action gameplay.

I know its your opinion calling it the worst console game ever but...really? Maybe ive grown tired of most action games but games like god of war 3 or bad company 2 (which get rave reviews) consists of one gameplay mechanic and uses it for it entirety just bores me now a days. I mean they can be fun for a few hours but just running around hitting the x button to kill monsters is gameplay but to me its boring gameplay. Heavy Rain has a few flaws but the overall package to me gives me a unique and fun experience I dont see too often.

Alot of casual gamers like mindless fun and games like god of war, call of duty, darksiders and other action titles are good for just shutting your brain off and hitting a few buttons. But they are not art (maybe art in the visual department) and a game like Heavy rain, no matter how flawed the story is at times, actually makes you think and contemplate the decisions you have to make.

As I stated before I know its your opinion that this is the worst game but can you explain your opinion why this game is worse then God of war, call of duty, prince of persia, resident evil 5, dark siders and dynasty warriors. These games consist primarily of one gameplay style and you repeat it over and over again. Heavy rain may lack traditional gameplay and im actually suprised this many people actually enjoy it for this fact alone. I mean how is making moral choices worse then a bunch of games that revolve around traditional gameplay of hitting two buttons over and over again? And I know there are games out there like dragon age and mass effect that also mix moral choices and traditional gameplay but Im comparing 90% of the console games to Heavy Rain and asking for your opinion to why you think they are all so superior to heavy Rain.