[ZeframCochrane]

In this episode of "my two cents", I'd like to add that we should remember to consider Myst in its original temporal context. The game came out in 1993. I think it's safe to say that at that time none of us had ever seen graphics of that kind running on our computers. I, for one, was in awe. I was too young to understand the difference between prerendered 3D and real time 3D, and for me that game was as close to photorealism as a videogame could get (little did I know that some 20 years later a certain degree of "photorealism" would be close to be achieved in real-time rendering too!).

Looking back, I'm not surprised I managed to overlook certain frustrating aspects of the game, and managed to enjoy the gaming experience very much. Granted, it did take a bit of patience, and yes, I did have to resort to a walkthrough a couple of times (I just couldn't understand by myself that in order to get the lift on Channelwood to work... I first had to close the door!! There I was, stubbornly using the lever with no results whatsoever...) but I would say that for me, the overall immersive experience outweighed the drawbacks.
To answer the OP, I would say that even if he hated Myst, he should try and see if he can borrow Riven from a friend in order to give it a chance. If he doesn't like it... no harm done.

Originally Posted by Fien

This player heard the clock tick, but doesn’t know what time it is. (Cruyff)

Pffft. Amateur.
"I say, maybe, without doubt, maybe in order to win today we needed a man, more than a man I think a man."
(Giovanni Trapattoni)

[AprilLives]

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

Its like saying that an apple is like an orange, because it is round, therefore if you don't like oranges, you won't like an apple. Not until you actually try the apple and understand its features will you actually enjoy/dislike it.

I'm not really sure I understand what this means but I really like how it sounds.

[Antrax]

~sighs~ if you insist...

You first post, kadji-kun, came across as extremely impolite. I mentioned that I disliked Myst, but specified that I would prefer it not to be the focus of the discussion.
Your own post disregarded my actual question (given that I'm some weird alien who magically doesn't share your aesthetic preferences, is item A like item B with regard to these specific properties which I've mentioned?), and instead focused on how realistic and wonderful Myst is. That in its own isn't so bad, if unhelpful. Then, your third paragraph outright denies any possibility of disagreement. Nobody could think Myst or Riven (unclear from your post) is not the very best AG! You go on to keep hammering the reason why my opinion is wrong, at me - despite not really knowing what I do like in adventure games or giving any credence to the points I have raised as to what I didn't like about Myst. Have I complained that the game doesn't hold my hand, or at the lack of a backstory? The closest I've come was mention I didn't like the pacing. It may have something to do with the fact I don't care for archeology in real life.
But I digress. Your next paragraph describes Riven as you've experienced it. You mention Riven had "everything Myst had", then begin defending it against several claims I did not make, for instance that difficult puzzles make a game horrible. That is a curious thing to say at this juncture, as I have not said anything about Riven (having not played it), nor have I said anything to make anyone believe I dislike difficult puzzles (and I have said something to the contrary, bringing Myst's relatively localized and simple puzzles as a weak point). However, that doesn't stop you, as you continue to defend the criticism neither I, nor anybody else, made. You conclude by attesting that Riven requires real skill, as opposed to other skills that other games require. This is again insulting on several levels, as the skills you mention mention in most part to games of an entirely other genre, one to the best of your knowledge I don't play. You then mention things typical to other adventure games (an inventory) but do so by throwing insulting adjectives, just so there can be no doubt as to their inherent lack of worth. So, Riven is the only game that requires worthwhile skills - which explains what makes it the very best AG, of course.

To summarise: you wrote a post in response to a question. You've made no attempt to answer that question. Instead, you've made several assumptions about my preferences in games, assumptions that were not rooted in anything I gave you. You used strong terms that leave no room to any opinion but yours, then used strawman arguments to make implications about the (illegitimate, of course) reasons behind my stated aesthetic preference. So, your entire post reads like an attack on my character rather than as a sincere attempt to help. I am sure that was not your intention, as I have no doubt you are a caring, open individual who was merely trying to help. However, the post, as written, did not help me, and would have offended me had I been less accustomed to the way internet discussions often go.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by ZeframCochrane

In this episode of "my two cents", I'd like to add that we should remember to consider Myst in its original temporal context. The game came out in 1993. I think it's safe to say that at that time none of us had ever seen graphics of that kind running on our computers.

Absolutely. I'd been playing Sierra and other 3rd-person adventures since 1986 and Myst was a groundbreaking revelation for me. Stunning graphics, a real guy talking to you, mysterious surroundings, strange contraptions, no idea what it was all about. Magic! Myst gave the word exploration a whole new meaning.

Pffft. Amateur.
"I say, maybe, without doubt, maybe in order to win today we needed a man, more than a man I think a man."
(Giovanni Trapattoni)

LOL! Cruyff has met his match.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by Antrax

...

I wasn't even talking to you. Not once have i said your name or responded to your question.

[Little Writer]

Great, another "are you insulting my intelligence?" discussion ...

To stay OT, I didn't like Myst either because it was way too hard. I don't like first person, I don't like puzzles where you have to tinkle with machinery hoping you'll get the right setting of levers and fuses and scales and whatnot to get it to work, but I did like the graphics of this game and I played through it with a walkthrough just to see what there is to see.

I've played Riven as well because I heard it was far better than Myst, but sadly only when it comes to the graphics. Gameplay is just the same and even harder.

Does me saying so mean that I just wasn't smart enough to deal with these games? I don't know about that. I only know that I draw the line when what is supposed to be fun entertainment becomes too much like a job.

I'm sure lots of people love being challenged in this way. Perhaps not all worthy of the title "hardcore gamer", but fact is if there are people out there who can acquire the ultimate weapons in say a Final Fantasy game, max out their characters, beat all the optional bosses etc, albeit through sheer intelligence, endurance or trial and error, I'm sure there are people who don't mind spending eternity figuring out a game like Myst and its sequels, or people who say they breezed through it in two hours time.

Personally, because I don't spend all that much time gaming, I'll always go for the easier games, and I'm not ashamed saying so. I just don't have the time to tackle hard puzzle games. I want to actually achieve something on my rare gaming nights, not pondering the same puzzle and wandering back and forth the available locations looking for things I've missed for two or three hours, than having to stop and wait for perhaps an entire week to give it another try.

[Melanie68]

There are only a few people who have come close to answering Antrax's question. I'm not really sure what some of you were talking about to be quite honest. Some of those responses were quite esoteric, weren't answering the question and were getting personal and condescending.

Keep to the topic at hand.

[Mohlin]

Originally Posted by Fien

The rides from island to island are lovely, Riven is an immensely beautiful place, alive with creatures and people, and you can end the game in ten different ways.

But of course it all boils down to: are you the type of gamer who enjoys lonely first-person exploration, mechanical/logic non-inventory puzzles, and reading books and documents.

The ride is lovely. Yes the first time, and the second, but not the 25th.

Why couldn't they do some kind of shortcut buttons/links/whatever?
If I know that I have to get this clue from that island, it is very annoying to "physically" have to travel there. And as far as I remember, you couldn't go from all islands to all other islands. So to get the clue at point A, you had to travel throug point B and C to get there.
Ok, it helps that you don't have to change the discs, but still...

(This is a problemin many games, not just Riven, and it is just as irritating in all of them)

[Antrax]

The zap mode (lightning icon) doesn't work for it? Or do you mean there's a cutscene of moving between the islands?

[Mohlin]

Lightning only worked on land, not between islands. I wanted that cutscene (thankyou for that word), but there was none when I played, which was -98 or so.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by Mohlin

Lightning only worked on land, not between islands. I wanted that cutscene (thankyou for that word), but there was none when I played, which was -98 or so.

A cut scene is a kind of "mini-movie" which the player doesn't control, like Gehn talking to you or the tram rides between the islands. I don't remember a way to skip the cut scenes either, but I guess I didn't mind.

[Christian IV]

Hi and thank you for this topic it is a good one, indeed an excellent chance to discuss these two classic games and what was up with their creation and the feeling of both of them and the story.

Yes, I'm sorry. I know it's a classic, but the game is essentially a couple of puzzles (I didn't count, but no more than 10), and not very fun or challenging ones at that. That's another discussion. The point is I really didn't enjoy it because the controls were terrible (you never know how much you turned your head after clicking, you have no clue if you continued "forward right" or "forward left" if you clicked somewhere inbetween, etc) and the whole game felt very... abrupt. There wasn't any real connection between puzzles in different ages, so there was no feel of progression.

The story of MYST and the story behind Myst are both about adventure, discovery and deep human challenges. It is one of the first "illustrated" stories that was created for this new fangled thing (the computer) back in the early days of people wondering what to do with this remarkable new magical tool. There were few visual "stories" yet of the type that Myst was and which many other creators followed with. It used a program called Hypercard that made literally a virtual world of still images yet you could have animations and functions, events, connected to the scenes. This world of imagery was completely created, made form the ground up, with computer graphics, not photo imagery. The shapes, the textures, and the entire imagery was crafted thru the use of software, tho as time went by the Myst games became more and more 'photorealistic" the aim was always to convey immersion, and as such, they gave rise to an entire new universe of CGI game world making that has continued to blossom and grow into tremendous breadth and richness. These were early days.

We take for granted now the huge and complex fully alive worlds of modern graphics with full 3D but back then, this was an amazing breakthrough into the 3D world by implcation, if not in reality, for the ability to move and turn in different directions, just four cardinal directions at that point, made a huge leap forward in CGI or digital story telling.

It was a laborious task, for neither Rand or Robyn (Miller) knew much about how computer worked or programming worked back then, this game was created on 4 computers in a garage like shop and was the labor of much love, and work and effort. The lighting, the modeling, the colours, and the music all evolved really in a blank unknown world. What we have is the result of this effort and as such, is like the first space walk, a marvel and a wonder then and now. It is crude by modern standards tho, but there is a way to make it golden and magical.

Look for the story, it emerges when you read, carefully, the damaged and remaining books in the library. It emerges in tiny hints, and implication. True the garbled speeches of Sirrus and Achenar are very hard to understand or empathize. I would have done that differntly. But they were trying to give the implication of a vast and at times not well maintained technology. They had ideas and glimpses of the world of the D'ni and the linking technology but what we see in Myst is the earliest glimmer of what has come to be over the years one of the deepest and richest back stories of any CGI game yet. This was the first glimmer in the eye.

Some of the imagery and the motifs are in a way, quite abstract and naiscent, unformed or being formed. It is allegory in form and function. As such, it feels unfinished and bare to us at times, crude ...yet it has its own energy and rythmn. Remember also back the, the technology revolution that has given us instant connectivity and e mail and cell phones, text and modern internet was still in its infancy. This linking and the magic of being able to move between "worlds" was an early way of imagining what we have now come to take for granted,....and as symbol was a powerful and clever and fun and magical way to tell a story. It takes some "imagineering" to make it all work ...but there is enough still there, even now, 20 years later, to see and feel the wonder and have fun with it. Sorry about the controls they are klunky....but it was the best of that time.

From that begining, the Myst world began to form. RIVEN was truly the effort of making it all come to be. Robyn Miller and Richard Van Der Wendt spent a year forming the world..they dreamed up and created the D'ni world, the language, the history, the artifacts, the style...and some of the history and from that they pulled out elements that were part of RIVEN and its foundation. But they also tried, as with Myst, to make it a mystery and to make us hunt for the meaning. There is truly meaning at every level hidden in the rocks, the land forms, the structures the mystery that hides so much of RIVEN. We are led onwards yet given many paths and not many answers ..not easily. We do have to search and suspend judgement....and that is not easy in our quick to move, decide and act world of today. Again I am not trying to convice or excuse...for there are aspects of both Myst and RIVEN that are not smooth or easy..... and there is a lot of work and brain wracking to solve puzzles that is frustrating and puzzling to the extreme at times. I gladly used a walkthrough when i hit a wall, for I want to have fun with games as well as study and understand them.

So, is Riven similar to Myst in that regard, or have they changed the control scheme, added puzzles and worked the plot into the story, rather than it being a bunch of movies where people say "bring me more pages" with a low sound volume?

There is a HUGE story behind and in RIVEN. it takes time to find it. You will have a chance to try many paths, for there is a complex geometry to the world of Riven and many ways you can advance. This was by design for the Miller brothers were again reaching forward, cutting trail in graphic adventure making, and story telling with the computer and with the enhanced graphics that the huge development team and effort worked with. At that time, this was the largest 3d wireframe yet made for any purpose and very complex. It was the labour of love of a large team of people, thousands of hours of effort.

There is great beauty and wonder in the game, moments you will never forget, and things to savour and be suprised by. It really is a work of art as well as a wonderful work of game making.

Not everyone likes the style, or the nature of games like RIVEN, but it is a unique experience. I would urge anyone to give it a chance. You can dive deeply into it, i took four months to play it the first time and did a detailed journal that is still on the net, uploaded at http://www.mystcommunity.com in the journal sectoin under The Far Horizons of Riven, christoherger. It was a lot of fun and really special in so many ways.



So yes there is a ton more visible story for RIVEN is the next step of development of the world of the D'ni that came to fullest flower in URU, and Myst Online URU Live (which you can read about in my research blog in my sig. Truly, the effort made by Cyan Worlds in the Myst series remains along with a few other series like Tomb Raider, the Star Wars games, the Elder Scrolls and some others....they remain some of the highest and most wonderful achievments of modern technolgy in art, literature and the gift of story telling so neccessary an anedote and healing in our overly exposed and skeptical age. We NEED stories and the gift of adventure like we need light, food and air. Myst and RIVEN both give this gift, but through a glass darkly at times, and for that I appologize for the Millers and for their attempt. It was a noble begining, but remember please it was the beginning of the beginning....and probably such efforts will not come again.



Enjoy, and I hope you do visit RIVEN, it is a wonderful journey ...if you take your time and enjoy. Note i do not say anyone or everyone will enjoy it in the same way, or even like it as they may other games. But it is a journey that has much to offer and to share...and for that, is worth the time and effort, at least to visit.

Far Horizons

What distance unseen
Lies beyond the Far Horizon
I see surrounding
These lost Isles?

Rising Phoenix like,
Isolate, Solitude lies
Upon these sea-girt peaks
Yet we are not alone.

Chambers of mystery,
Gold bedecked, deep silences
Passages of shadow
Leading into Light.

What mysteries unlocked
May lead to other keys,
Forgotten, Hidden,
Poised on the Edge of the Infinite.

RIVEN is beyond the map,
and lies unguessed beneath
A strange,
Yet brilliant Sun,
Falling on a Sundered Sea

In the end, perhaps a way to try to describe Myst and RIVEN..they are like haiku, the short and quite stunningly beautiful Japanese poems that tell much in just a few words...they are games that are meant to imply more than they say up front, they feel like real life adventures in some ways, we dont often know what is going on, or what it all means but there is a sense of electricity, or of far off and only half guessed events. They are a stage that shows much but not all of a play, or a story, and it can feel incomplete or like things are missing.... but that also allows our imagination a chance to wonder and to lead us on, and to give us, if only for a few moments that feeling of something new, and special and ....magical. I hope this may happen with you ....or for anyone who ventures into the worlds of Myst.

[Antrax]

Wow. That had to be one of most, uh, invested? posts I've ever seen, not only on this forum. Thank you for the effort, let alone the content

I don't shy away from games that are not as flashy as today's graphics, and I still remember Myst when it came out and how amazed I was by the visuals. However, I do get disoriented easily in real life, and the fact that in Myst the turning cursor didn't always take four turns to bring you back, made places that probably weren't supposed to be confusing, very confusing (like the second level of Channelwood, in which I got lost even though I had the map!).

I'll probably get around to trying Riven, though, based on the opinions here. Besides, now my interest is piqued, because no game ever took me nearly as long as a couple of months, so that sounds promising, on the challenge level.

Thanks again, to those who helped.

[Christian IV]

Hi Antrax and I am glad my humble sharing helped....

remember as you venture into and thru RIVEN that the that entire world was created by hand quite literally. It was a huge 3D world that existed only in the software that crafted and created it, and was as such a remarkable achievemnt. Once that world was created they could then focus on the story and craft our progression thru the journey ...and create the various pathways we would travel. It is a shame that that world was not created in 3D, I asked Robyn yrs later if it might be possible to visit the world of RIVEN today in 3D and he said sadly that the entire world would have to be rebuilt to make that possible. So this is a remarkable journey into the world of the D'ni and the world of the myst series that is trapped in Amber so to speak, and a magical entity of its own.

the music track btw is about to be re released, newly re mastered. I will post when it is out if anyone is interested.

Enjoy the Journey I reccomend the DVD version, but if you end up with the 5 CD set, remember to install the older version of Quicktime 3.0, and also there is a way to load all the CD content into the main install folder so you dont have to constantly swap the CD's. I can share that too if needed or you can consult the techncial help section on that site i mentioned, mystcommunity, that is a great place to get help wth any of the Myst games as it is one of the legacy sites and forums for myst lore and very helpful info on all the games can be found there.

[Phod]

I agree, great post.

Without going into my opinions and such, I have the 10th Anniversary DVD version of Myst/Riven/Exile. I'd like to fire up Riven again. I have Windows Vista. How much of a pain in the butt is it going to be?

Thanks!

[Christian IV]

Running RIVEN on Modern Computers:

Vista;

1. Change compatibility mode. Find either the game icon or the main executable file and right click. Choose properties. Change compatibility to WinXP sp2 or an earlier Windows version; or

2. Run as administrator. Find either the game icon or the main executable file and right click. Choose "Run as Administrator"; or

3. Uninstall. Log on as administrator and reinstall, giving rights to your main user account. Repeat steps one or two if necessary.

If the above fails, you may need to either turn off UAC (User Account Control) or turn off data protection services while installing or running these games. I've never had to try these two.

Riven Runs but sometimes it does not save well. The save file becomes corrupted after five or six saves. This may be... a data protection services issue.

If Riven freezes you may need to install an older verison of Quicktime and also run the game in Win98 Compatabilty mode. See below for Quicktime source.

XP:

Running Riven on XP

The following applies to both the Windows and MacOS versions of Riven.

Short answer: Use the Riven DVD or the Myst 10th Anniversary DVD.

Long answer: Copy all data (.MHK) files from the "data" folder on each CD-ROM into the "data" folder in the Riven installation folder on your harddisk.

Under certain rare circumstances it is also required to adjust a configuration file named riven.cfg in the Riven installation folder:

Within this text file, locate the sections titled [aspit], [ospit], etc. (all have the suffix "pit"). In each of these sections, change the number of the entry starting with "Disc=" to the number "0". That's all. Remember, the manipulation of the riven.cfg file is usually not required.

An easier way to accomplish all this copying under Windows is provided by Jehon's Riven Data Copy Wizard.

http://www.nicouzouf.com/en/?id=riventhesequeltomyst

This neat little tool copies the required files for selected parts of the game to your harddisk and performs all adjustments.

Be sure to set the game to run in Win 95 compatabilty mode.

Also sometimes these two files dont copy to the hard drive:

t_Data.MHK file from disc 2
t_Sounds.MHK file

You may also have to change your Quicktime version if the above steps still don't work, just allow the installer to instal the version taht comes with the game. In case that does not work you can get older copies of Quicktime here:

http://www.oldapps.com/quicktime_pla...d_quicktime=20

Install Riven as normal via its installer.

Allow Riven setup to also install Quicktime (or, manually install from CD 1).

Copy all .mhk files from each CD, located in the Data directory, to the Riven installation on the hard drive (if you used the defaults during installation, that will be CProgram Files\Riven\data).

Rarely, you may need to change the riven.cfg file, look in the install folder for the file Riven.cfg and open with World pad or a text editor.

Modify riven.cfg and under ata file sets section, change all Disc settings to 0:

[ospit]
Disc = 0
File_0 = "data/o_data.mhk"
File_1 = "data/0_sounds.mhk"

[pspit]
Disc = 0
File_0 = "data/o_data.mhk"
File_1 = "data/0_sounds.mhk"

There may be a problem with Save Games after 5 or 6 saves.

If you have the 5 CD set and not the DVD:

Note that the path to your Riven\data folder may be different than that shown below.

Copy the files highlighted in yellow from the Riven CDs to the \Riven\data folder on your hard drive. The other files are automatically placed on your hard drive when Riven is installed.



Enjoy

[DustyShinigami]

I did have the 10th Anniversary box set of the Myst games, but I decided to sell it as I could never bring myself to actually play them. I guess I'm not that much of a fan of first-person adventures. I don't mind them, to a degree, but I'd sooner play a third-person adventure instead. There are too many first-person adventures that are like Myst and they don't do anything for me. I don't like the mechanical/mathematical puzzles and wandering around alone. Some of them, like Barrow Hill, just have cheap/poor visuals, animations and acting that I find off-putting. * Although the Myst games certainly aren't like that as FMV is used and blends in nicely with the game world. But I prefer my adventures to have inventory/dialogue puzzles, being able to see my character and to have conversations with other characters etc. My preferences are story, characters and puzzles. Not puzzles, story and characters (or even just puzzles on their own).

However, I did play Riven years ago. A friend lent it to me. But because I couldn't handle the puzzles I used a walkthrough all the way through. I do agree, however, that graphics are very nice and detailed. Especially Riven and Myst IV. And it certainly sounds deep and intriguing as to how much background and detail is present in the games. But, I'm afraid these games just aren't for me.

* I understand that a game like Barrow Hill is an independant/low budget title though.

[thejobloshow]

Ugh, I hate Myst - it was all surface masquerading as something deeper just because it wasn't DOOM - in fact, it's the Blair Witch of gaming.

The fact that its lasting impact was to inspire some lackluster, B-grade adventure games made on Macromedia Director vindicates its position as a minor distraction in the evolution of gaming.

Now, The 7th Guest - that's a masterpiece.

[Christian IV]

I hope you were joking. Maybe you were serious.

Myst is one of the classics and will always be a major landmark and milestone on the path of CGI game development and I am very glad it was created.

Perhaps it is just that the subltle and nuanced nature of Myst is not forceful enough to appeal when other things have more of an initial punch.

Needless to say, 4 million people did enjoy Myst, and many continue to, I really enjoy introducing it to first time gamers of all ages and enjoy even more watching them experince what lies beyond Myst in the other Myst games, and games of adventure of all kinds, esp those that are on the more gentle and Light Side in nature....

[Little Writer]

Anyone read the books?

I'd like to thank Gazzoid for putting into words my own feelings about this type of game: "I'm not much of a fan of first-person adventures. I don't like the mechanical/mathematical puzzles and wandering around alone."

I once had a copy of "Return to Zork" (no idea where it went) and I had a kind of love/hate thing going with it. While first person, it's still far different from "Myst", probably because it had inventory puzzles and character interaction, but I've always compared the two when it came to arcane puzzle difficulty, where you almost need inside knowledge to get through them.