[inm8#2]

I also made it through the first segment, but I cheated by starting earlier this week.

Great game. Love the atmosphere and music. It begins on a sort of ominous/ambiguous note in that you really aren't sure what's going on - is it a dream, a hallucination, or what? The photos of Josh that appear add a great sense of surrealism.

Gotta also say I can understand now the reviews that say the subject matter is a bit dark. You really sympathize with Marilyn and wonder what it must be like to not have that grip on "reality" and be subject to the "treatments" that went on in Blackstone.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by inm8#2

I also made it through the first segment, but I cheated by starting earlier this week.

Same here.

So far, I find the game marvelously creepy and sad, and very very engaging. I never expected less from Legend, which Jack's review rightly calls a "vastly-underrated" developer. For some reason, it's only my third game of theirs (after high fantasy quests Death Gate and Shannara), but I definitely must play all their creations eventually. Shame the company was little-known even in the 90s and seem to get more and more forgotten, as they deserve the mention among the greatest.

But back to Blackstone and its qualities. Music is beautiful. Puzzles have so far been easy but never in a patronizing way. The timed locked-in sequence had my heart pounding as well as Oliver's, and I understand from the manual there'll be several more "traps" like that one; I'm excited/terrified already. The choice to have ghosts as disembodied voices, though no doubts at least partly made for budgetary reasons, works fantastically thanks to good to excellent acting. Apart from Strozier, I have to single out whoever voices Jane (the ghost in the hydrotherapy). So chilling, so lonely, I wanted to be able to hug her.

But speaking of characters, the one that we have gotten to know the most in this first segment was of course Marylin. For a while I suspected (pure speculation now, but spoilered just in case):

Spoiler:

that she might have really been pregnant, and the family isolated her in asylum to avoid the scandal, and superintendent was in on it.

I doubt that now, because it seems the focus will now shift to other patients' stories and so the time for such revelation passed. But various sources: Malcolm, the diary, the museum display, stressed how persistent her delusions were, so I couldn't help thinking that we are being set up for such plot twist.

Another piece of speculation, this time concerning Josh's whereabouts:

Spoiler:

It'd be a bit anticlimactic if it turns out to be behind that obvious wall of bricks in the basement...

Any criticisms I have so far are minor, and have all to do with the interface and presentation. I am not a big fan of node-based first person without 360 degree panning anyway -- but this "panning" here is even worse than none. Every time the backround flattens and turns I feel like it's painted on a giant wheelbarrow around me and my suspension of disbelief is broken a bit. Also, I am already getting a tad annoyed with the backtracking, and I expect it to get worse when more area open. What was wrong with one-static-image-per-location design and instant-travelling-map of previous Legend games?

And why no subtitles? I can understand all speakers, even the Irish mechanic, most of the time, but honestly, with Legend's rich history with text and semi-text adventures they are the last company I would expect to release a game without that feature. Baffling.

Originally Posted by Trunkyo

A humorous easter egg you can try anytime during the game :

Spoiler:

When you use the computer in Malcolm's study and it prompts you to enter a patient's name, type in the names of certain Mindscape and Legend Entertainment employees (check your manual or the credits!) It seems that author John Saul was also a patient!

Spoiler:

Heh. I wasn't aware of the easter egg, but when I accessed the database, two first names I tried were Bob Bates and John Saul, anyway.

[MoriartyL]

I've only played for a little over an hour so far, but I've really enjoyed it to this point. I like that it's focused on exploration and doesn't let the plot or the puzzles distract too much from it. [EDIT 2: Now that I see what this game's idea of puzzles are, I see that that was a very silly thing to say. I've already reached the point where there's no way to progress unless I wave my items around all over the place and wait for the cursor to flash.] And of course the actual area we're exploring is really intriguing. I love the idea that some people's neuroses don't even end in death, but just keep going forever. The plot fits with that idea, too: even after dying, Malcolm still finds ways to mess up everyone's lives. It's particularly hellish to think that suffering can potentially be inflicted and experienced indefinitely, and that seems to be one of the thematic underpinnings of this game.

Spoiler:

I like that Marilyn's referring to the teddy bears as though they're the people she imagines. If I may psychoanalyze (though of course it's not strictly realistic), I think on some level she understands that these aren't real people she's talking about. But she can't really bring herself to believe that, so she "compromises" by saying they're real, but not people. This mental compromise lets her feel that she has taken reality into consideration, so that she can go back to her delusion full-force and ignore any protests.

One line of text in her computer entry jumped out at me: it said that after her symptoms of pregnancy stopped, she believed she had given birth. Does that mean that she actually had symptoms of pregnancy? (Psychosomatic, maybe?) And if she really thought she had given birth, then why doesn't she think that anymore? Why has she gone back to thinking she's still pregnant? Maybe because that was a much more comfortable delusion ("The baby's still coming...") than thinking that she'd lost a child for good?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. I hadn't read the computer terminal in her room (I'd assumed they all had the same information.), which specifically says that her symptoms were psychosomatic. So that explains that.

Spoiler:

On Malcolm's desk is a photo of a patient named Louisa Hartwick. I typed that name into the computer, and got nothing, so I figure I must have spelled it wrong. I'm thinking maybe "Hartwicke" is with an E? I should go back and check.

So far I'm totally absorbed into the world of this game. I can't wait to meet the other patients.

[Fantasysci5]

Hey guys!

Trunkyo-I totally agree. Malcolm's voice is so chilling in how "matter-of-fact" he says everything, like he was the good guy. His voice is top notch. I never knew about that easter egg, thanks for telling us!!

inm-I love how you're not sure through the whole night if you're just making this up or how Malcolm can talk to you. I've always wondered when Josh talks to Malcolm, what he sees. We can only talk to him through an object-the picture, so what does Josh see?

AFGNCAAP-I know, those timed sequences really get to me! It's such a rush to try and get out! I love though, that the game gives you all the chances you'd like to play through that sequence in case you die. Yeah, the backtracking is annoying. I love the disembodied voices of the ghosts, too. I love the idea that they attach themselves to an object, and I thinkw e shouldn't be able to see them.

That's such a good theory about Marylin! You don't have to put it in spoilers, we should all know about her now. You're quite right that it could have been a scandal they tried to cover up, although I lean more towards she really did not have a baby. But I love your idea! I guess we'll never know for sure.

Mory-The picture on Malcolm's desk is not of a patient-but of an employee. I agree; I like how they still carry their problems even in death. Yes, each screen has new information, so make sure to check them all out! They're very interesting. I think she made herself think she was having a baby, since Tommy was going into the war, as a way to make him stay. In the book, she told him, and then he went into the army, though. I'll put more about what the book had to say when I post my thoughts.


I'll post my own thoughts soon.

[MoriartyL]

That timed puzzle is genuinely terrifying.

[SharonB]

What a game this was. I played it when it was new and was so distressed about what happened to the patients that I immediately gave the game away.

But now I'm curious again because I've forgotten almost all of it. I started reading this play-thru and got interested again. I looked on YouTube for the playthru of the game, but it was only partly done. I met Marilyn, but the lighter was not found at the point it ended.

I had forgotten or perhaps I did not really appreciate how very good the game is. I wish now that I still had the game.

However, I will follow this play-thru with interest.

[Fantasysci5]

Hey Sharon! Yeah, I agree, what was done to the patients made me sick to my stomach, but like a train wreck, I couldn't look away.

[Intense Degree]

Thanks to Amazon's superfast delivery and being able to find a few spare hours over the weekend, I have played through the first section of this game. I haven't played it before but have enjoyed it so far.

First Thoughts:

My very first impressions were that it reminded me of Shivers (mid 90's Sierra). Both are first person with a "dark" atmosphere and involve exploring a "museum" with NPC's being ghosts/spirits. This is a good thing (for me at least!) as I really liked shivers, it was the game that got me to like first person games.

However, it is different to Shivers in that the characters (so far at least) are more developed and believable, and there are more of them. I think not trying to give them physical forms was a good move and does not detract from the game at all, especially as there are some pictures/portraits around the place.

Also the puzzles are more inventory/traditional adventure style puzzles where Shivers had sliders and Chinese chequers.

Graphics are good on the whole and stand up quite well a decade on. The transitions are "interesting" but more of a quirk then a problem to me.

Probably the thing I am most impressed with so far is the voice acting. When it's done badly it can really ruin immersion in a game, but here the voices seem to suit the characters and acting generally is good. Dr Metcalf is quietly menacing, calm but giving the feeling that madness lies underneath. Seamus O'Rourke is a bit of a stereotype but otherwise characters are good and well portrayed.

Atmosphere is well created and supported by the music which gives a more subtle and psychological sense of fear/foreboading.

Won’t comment on the story yet as we have only just begun!

Puzzles have been (mostly) sensible and logical. All in all, I think the idea of giving the player the massive bunch of keys which are gradually identified as the game progresses, is a good one. Keeping some areas of a one building game world unavailable to the player until the right time is always likely to feel a little bit artificial/contrived but I think this is a good way.

So, all in all I'm looking forward to seeing how this game develops as the start is very promising. Now all I have to do is resist the temptation to play on before Wednesday...

[Luna Sevithiainen]

I've finished the first part as well.
Wow, atmosphere all over! I know I may be somewhat over-sensitive to atmosphere, but it really makes me expect things, although I can't put my finger onto what I actually expect. The panning and first person perspective add to this, as it really sucks me into my screen, forgetting that I am actually not in the asymlum but in my own, safe, room.

The music greatly adds to this. In the upper rooms the music and atmosphere is all so...calm, like it will all be okay, nothing is wrong...but then in the basement: dark colours, menacing music, now THIS feels like something is about to go very wrong indeed!

I love it how the touch screens all show the asylum so positive, all about treating the patients as good as possible, making them feel as well as possible, whereas the reality is far from that. The lids on the bath tubs just being there to keep a constant temperature...until you hear the real story of course. In the same way it is like what the people in the outside world would see, the upper 2 stories of the building also follow that pattern. It all looks so nice, so caring for the patients. But no one outside of course saw that horrible basement...
It is like there are two realities, one for the outside world, and the cold harsh truth...

With the puzzles I agree with Intense Degree. They are not really hard

Spoiler:

unless you don't expect having to backtrack, which I soon learned was indeed very important. Before I found out that I actually had to ask Marylin about how to turn the steam bath on...Took some time.

and rather straightforward.

The timed puzzle was my absolute favorite. Timed puzzles are in general a favorite of mine, because of the sense of urgency they convey. And this one really did a good job at it. From the moment

Spoiler:

I heard Malcolm comment on my action it was clear that something was wrong. Then being physically transported (dragged?) to the hydrotherapy room, towards the heat chamber, it opening and the whole action of being put in...You get the feeling it really is happening to you. The beating heart...You just feel you are in there. And you feel the urgency, the MUST...GET....OUT...NOW. I know I am very susceptible to this, but I say it is really well done, especially because of perspective being right with everything that happens.

Interesting theory, AFGNCAAP. My first idea was also that Marilyn really was pregnant, because of those things you mentioned. And of course we as observers are slightly biased by first hearing her joyfully about being pregnant, and only later found out about it being psychosomatic. But the fact that her case was so persistant.

Spoiler:

And that she mentioned her baby being burned...I just...don't know how they induced that thought in her. Blankets and picture books,actual objects, yes...but the baby? If it only existed in her mind you'd expect that to be possible, you'd expect her mind to not wrap around the murder of her imaginary child. You'd expect no one to be able to induce that belief in her unless something was physically done...I really don't want to believe the actual murder of her baby, that it was something else that was burned what Marylin only BELIEVED to be her baby, but I have the eerie feeling that that was real...In this asylum any horror can be done...

The only thing I don't really like are the appearances of Josh. For some reason his pictures are to realistic (in a graphical sense) in comparison to the rest of the graphics. To me this kinda kills the suspension of disbelieve, which is not helped by him not moving either...

But to sum up: great and terrifying. People are horrible creatures.

[Fantasysci5]

Hey Luna and all!! I'm glad you're liking it so far! I still need to post those dang thoughts of mine, kicking around in my head.

I totally agree with you guys; the timed puzzles succeed in getting your heartbeat up. I love the touch screens and how much information they have, and hearing the "real" side of it from the patients.

Oh, and the burning the baby-that is something better explained in the book-well, not explained, but why she thinks that maybe. In the book, they didn't let her see the baby once she supposedly gave birth, so we even as the readers are not sure if she really did or not. They said they were going to put it up for adoption, and left. She wanted to see it, and got really depressed, so the following accoutn may jsut be in her mind. She watched out of a window as she saw a "familiar" white blanket being taken out. She assumed (rightly or not?), that her baby was in it. Then she saw them throw it into the incenerator outside.

Now, I'm not sure that even the evil attendants and doctor would do that to a baby, no matter how "ungodly" it may have been concieved, but Marilyn was sure of it. Then, using the lighter her sister gave to her (and you had to find), she burned all of her skin off. She said she felt numb, and couldn't even feel herself burning. So that's how she died, and the story.

While I'm at it, I'll tell you the rest from the book. It was just a short few paragraphs in flashback form, but very interesting. She told Tommy while they were out in the car, you know, the type of steamy love on an abandoned-hill kind of thing. He got really angry, dropped her at her parents house, and said he never wanted to see her again. She had to tell her parents, and her dad was furious at Tommy. Said that Tommy had joined the army, the coward, and that if it didn't kill him, he would.

It was a big scandel, and to "punish" Marilyn for the unholy act that the baby was concieved (or something along those lines), they sent her to the asylum until after the birth. Every kid in the town was scared of the place, but as we know from her diary, the patients weren't that bad; it was the ordilies.

She began to smoke, with nothing else to do, and her sister snuck up to the asylum (her family didn't visit) and gave her the lighter as a present. She began having (real or fake) contractions, and the doctor refused to give her anything, since apparently we were made to believe she wasn't really pregnant. The rest I have already said above.

Tommy Discrepency-In the game, Marilyn has a picture of Tommy in the army, which makes it seem like she made herself believe she was pregant to bring him out of the army and back to her. Yet in the book part I mentioned, he joined the army after he found out she was pregnant, to get away. So if that's true, how does she have a picture of him in the army, if he said he never wanted to see her again? He certainly wouldn't have sent her a picture. Unless that isn't him at all, and she just says it is so she can keep deluding herself into thinking he still loves her...

And yes, the pictures of Josh kind od detracted from the game for me, too. I guess we have to keep getting reminded that we're there for Josh, even though we care about the patients more.

Aah, the good ol' long posts of my last playthrough. And AFGNCAAP-like your new avatar.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

That oddness about Tommy I hadn't noticed yet...
Maybe it was put in the game to let the player know that Tommy (unlike the baby) actually did exist, and wasn't a delusion of Marylin as well?
The player gets no other info of Tommy actually existing than the picture (and of course what Marylin tells you, but we can not safely assume that to be true). We have no objective-ish third-person-view-like scene in which we witness Tommy, or Marylin telling Tommy, so the only sort of certain way to know he exists is by a picture (which can, as you said Fantasy, also be someone else, but it is the closest it gets to being certain about Tommy actually existing).

Hmm...from the book you can't tell at all whether she really was pregnant or not then? It sounds a lot like AFGNCAAP's theory to me.

[harald]

A very pleasant surprise awaited me this afternoon. I had not expected it to arrive in less than two weeks and I feel lucky to join you already!

My very first impression was from reading the manual and looking at the box and media - that's what I especially like about older games; they came with so much extra. The DVD cases (or direct downloads) nowadays don't have the same feel to them. It's better for the environment I suppose, but... Anyway, rambling.

First, my reactions to the manual. I hope I'm not going to be long-winded again. The manual felt excessively friendly, almost patronizing. It assures you that you can't end up in a timed puzzle without any way to escape. If you should fail, you can try again or even ask for the solution. Everything felt "softer" than I'd expect from a horror game. This is probably a strange reaction - and definitely not criticism! - but we're supposed to be discussing, right?

Then I started playing, and what a joy it is to play. I can't think of anything bad to say so far, and you people have listed all the positive things so...

Just one last thing. Intense Degree says it's reminiscent of Shivers, and I agree, but I immediately thought of Phantasmagoria when playing. Shivers was a slide-show, whereas this almost looks fully 3d-rendered with all its walking animations. And that parallel is probably why I reacted to the "hand-holding" with the timed puzzles. Phantasmagoria (and Shivers, for that matter) could definitely put you in a tight spot without any means to escape, and that increased the tension for me. "Great, I'm stuck, time is ticking and will I even be able to get out of here?" Granted, it also increased frustration.

I am totally sold so far. Wished it were Wednesday already!

[Fantasysci5]

Originally Posted by Luna Sevithiainen

Maybe it was put in the game to let the player know that Tommy (unlike the baby) actually did exist, and wasn't a delusion of Marylin as well?

Hmm...from the book you can't tell at all whether she really was pregnant or not then? It sounds a lot like AFGNCAAP's theory to me.

I never thought of it like that, that Tommy never existed. I am almost sure he did, and either really got her pregnant, or she was distressed at him leaving her to go into the army, so made it up. But I always assummed there was a Tommy out there.

Yeah, the book never even mentions the possibility that she was making it all up. That was all the game. In the book, things were left pretty mysterious.

So now I'm very curious, as I didn't think there would be such differientiating opinions. Do you think Marilyn was really pregnant, or not? I know I'm pretty on the fence about it, but try and pick one. For me-I think she wasn't, it was just something she needed to cling to.

Glad you can join us, harald!

[MoriartyL]

I don't think she was pregnant. From what I've seen so far, the asylum was evil but not random. The people who suffered were people with mental illnesses, who were being treated badly because that was seen as the way to get them better. I'm sure the doctors were intelligent and educated enough to tell the difference between a real pregnancy and a fake one, and if it was a real pregnancy I can't imagine them doing what they did.

[Intense Degree]

So far I'm undecided on the pregnancy point but probably leaning towards her not being pregnant.

When I first came across Marilyn it was clear that there was something not quite right about the pregnancy as she seemed a bit too fixated on it and then there were comments about it being a psychosis on the touch screen and (I think) in the computer patient records.

However, there are a few things that might point the other way. Firstly, we read that Dr Metcalf burnt a few of her things apparently to help her understand the difference between what is real and what is imaginary. I can't put this down to good intentions on his part, as surely burning the real and tangible items was taking away part of the truth and (perhaps) encouraging her to believe other things, i.e. maybe to reinforce that what she perceived to be true was not necessarily so and thus preparing her to be convinved that she was not pregnant when in fact she was? I quite concede that this argument could work the other way round as well but I'm still not sure that taking away the real things (which were burnt) would help her to get rid of the "unreal" idea she was pregnant.

Secondly, and in despite of the apparent intention to stop her believing that she was pregnant, she was allowed a book of baby names and a cradle in her room. Surely that would only encourage the delusion, and coupled with the burning of real things (as above), it seems to show that they were playing with/experimenting on her, in which case it is difficult to know whether she was or was not pregnant.

Also, her reaction when she found out/imagined that the baby had been burned points to not pregnant. I cannot imagine that a mother separated from a new born baby, and then thinking that the baby had been killed, would just slip into depression? Surely she would do everything she could to get the baby back and/or exact revenge on those who had killed her baby? However, if deep down she knew that it was all fantasy then slipping into depression is a more likely response (or so think I with no psychiatric training or experience at all).

On the whole I am leaning more towards what Mory has said, that I can't imagine them going so far as to kill a baby. I think that they were playing with her mind, but whether with good intentions or not i'm not sure.

So... (having re-read what i've just written and wondering if it actually makes sense?!)... I think my vote goes to the "not pregnant" party.

[harald]

I seem to be in a minority here but I thought the pregnancy was real. She sounded a bit delirious at first but when you return from the hydro room she says "I remember now...", she seems to accept that she is dead and sounds more clear-minded than before. So I started to accept what she was telling me from that point. And I have no trouble believing that Dr. Metcalf could go as far as what Mary says. He seems evil enough to be capable of anything!

Someone said that they were caring more for the spirits of the patients than for Oliver's son - I don't agree. While his responses to Josh's appearances could have been more emotional, he's probably just trying to be comforting. The patients' stories are moving, but Josh is more so. I don't know, I'm always affected when children are victims; it touches deeper. I, like Oliver, can't wait to get him out of that cellar.

I love how the ghosts take turns at narrating the game depending on what room you're in. It helps characterize them even more. I'm not sure about Malcolm though. He's less scary that way. It makes sense that he'd be lurking behind your back throughout the story, but it would be way creepier if he just appeared in glimpses, such as when Oliver was put in the timed trap. I'm thinking this might grow on me, though; the voice actor is superb.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

I never thought of it like that, that Tommy never existed. I am almost sure he did, and either really got her pregnant, or she was distressed at him leaving her to go into the army, so made it up. But I always assummed there was a Tommy out there.

I also tend to believe Tommy is real, especially because Marylin's delusions were psychosomatic, and there is not much psychosomatic to the father of the child. But if she actually was delusional it is hard to tell what of her stories is truth, and what is made up to support her beliefs. And if you think about stuff like this too long you start doubting everything you see or hear

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

I'm sure the doctors were intelligent and educated enough to tell the difference between a real pregnancy and a fake one, and if it was a real pregnancy I can't imagine them doing what they did.

Unfortunately being intelligent and educated does not automatically lead to doing the right thing in Blackstone...After seeing the hydrotherapy room, I can imagine them doing a lot of horrible things. I can also imagine the people working there believing the initial diagnosis that was made, and once being stigmatized as such, I can also imagine the people working there not noticing any other signs because it was 'just psychosomatic and she was delusional anyway so why believe her and not the diagnosis and the one diagnosing'.

Or, maybe some people found out she actually WAS pregnant, unlike the diagnosis, but did not want to acknowledge having made a mistake (or rather, that thediagnoser was wrong) and that therefore they wanted to cover up the mistake, simply by continuing what they were doing, as if nothing happened (who knows what the consequences would be when you dared to counteract a diagnosis given by someone superior?)

Marylin may not have started to show her pregnancy when she came to the asylum, and given that it sometimes takes to about a month before giving birth before anything is actually visible, and given that smoking and the things done to her can not have been good to the baby, leaving it rather small, causing the pregnancy to barely show, I think the signs are easily missed when in the wrong mental set ('it is only psychosomatic, the girl is not pregnant, she is just a bit fat') and when no attention is paid to the patients other than the 'attention' they get for their treatment.

Because of all this, I just can't make up my mind about Marylin being really pregnant or not. I think both options are plausible and the truth died with Marylin.
I lean a bit more towards the 'she was pregnant' side, but given that no arguments fully exclude or confirm either side, I think I am mostly pushed that way because the symptoms were persistant and because of what Marylin told so passionately. Her story is the first we hear, maybe that is why I am more likely to believe her than any contracdiction heard later on.

[Fantasysci5]

Originally Posted by Intense Degree

However, if deep down she knew that it was all fantasy then slipping into depression is a more likely response (or so think I with no psychiatric training or experience at all)

Wow, I never thought of it like that. See, that's the reason we do community playthroughs. That's true, that if her world of delusions around herself started to crumble, she would get depressed. Althrough maybe if she was pregnant, she got depressed rather than revengeful because she knew she couldn't fight "the system", since they would probably just try and shush it up.

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

and if it was a real pregnancy I can't imagine them doing what they did.

I agree. The doctors may have been horrible, but they honestly thought they were helping these people.

[Luna Sevithiainen]

I just noticed something that strikes me as really interesting. I have a hunch we will have to encounter this only much later in the game (so I don't know whether I should speculate as much as I do now, the speculation on its own maybe spoiler-ish)

Spoiler:

If you enter the name Oliver Metcalf in the computer there is actually a record of him! All fields (except for his name) are classified so there is nothing you could learn from that...but it is interesting. Oliver as a patient? Why? Is he actually delusional and is everything what is happening now only in his mind? Or is he falsely diagnosed?

[Fantasysci5]

Good spot, Luna!

I don't think they address it later in the game or not, but you remember when you first talk to Malcolm at the beginning, Oliver said he tortured him? It's talked about in the books, but I'm not sure if the game covers it. Malcolm says he has to "train" Josh, like Malcom once trained Oliver to give those gifts to people to get revenge. How do you think he did? I'm not sure if I want to spoil your speculations or not...