[mgeorge]

Originally Posted by therabidfrog

Technically Nigel didn't really steal from his employers. He just printed some files he shouldn't have. And since we are getting around to it the one thing that always took me out of the game was the fact that Nigel never seems frightened about anything that happens even during some of the more obviously threatening encounters.

It's like "Gosh that was strange!" and then he's back to zero.

Yes this kind of bothered me as well. Although there are some animations a bit later in the game where Nigel appears to be somewhat startled. So it does get a bit better. However they are so ridiculously bad that I laughed when I saw them. They really are that atrocious. However by that point I was so used to his lack of emotion that it didn't really bother me.

When I heard that the game was done pretty much by Mr. Boakes alone though, I can forgive this kind of thing and would love to see a game that has the support of a full team of animators etc. behind him.

As to Nigel stealing, I agree with you. Seems to me he did just print the files, although I'm sure he knew that he probably shouldn't have, so it does give a hint to his character.

[therabidfrog]

Originally Posted by seagul

Nice hint.
The Logo, apart from the figure, shows these horizontal stripes and a sound that indicates a bad transmission.
The same stripes are shown at the beginning, when Mr. Hadden beginns to talk, and in Nigels dream(s). Do they have the same reason: transmission-problems?
As said before, at the beginning these „transmission-problems“ are accompanied by the sounds of a modem connecting.
Mr. Haddens technology has something to do with computers. So have these transmission-elements something to do with the Hadden-technology??
Another thought in this direction:
We know about a kind of transmission that is beeing made by Hadden: the chasm showed some forms that seemingly wanted to come from there world, the otherside, to our (as Mr. Hare reports).
Can we connect this event with the flooded graveyard and the deads floating out of their coffins? No resting in peace here!
So: are Mr. Haddens experiments and the flooting deads somehow connected?
If they are connected, then Saxton and the experiments are connected, too.

Another thought about Mr. Hadden: at the beginning we see him in his computer-room. Everything is coloured (in differents shades of blue), only Mr. Hadden and his chair seem to be black-and-white. Mr. Hadden clearly isn’t what he seems to be. Which the Logo stated from start on.

Speaking about fearless Nigel: there never could be a game about my ghost hunting adventures: i would flee after the first supernatural encounter. You need an exploring and fearless person. So Nigel is quite the right one.

Wo! lol You are reading way too much into this stuff. The modem sounds are just atmosphere to add to the fact that you're looking at logs. It's mostly style and atmosphere not some deep internal message about life.

[therabidfrog]

Originally Posted by mgeorge

Yes this kind of bothered me as well. Although there are some animations a bit later in the game where Nigel appears to be somewhat startled. So it does get a bit better. However they are so ridiculously bad that I laughed when I saw them. They really are that atrocious. However by that point I was so used to his lack of emotion that it didn't really bother me.

When I heard that the game was done pretty much by Mr. Boakes alone though, I can forgive this kind of thing and would love to see a game that has the support of a full team of animators etc. behind him.

As to Nigel stealing, I agree with you. Seems to me he did just print the files, although I'm sure he knew that he probably shouldn't have, so it does give a hint to his character.

They kind of attempt to explain it by having Nigel mention a few times that he just sees it as scientific research.

Spoiler:

But the night you go back to the church he is out right attacked

And I think the only thing he says after is "That was certainly strange"

[mgeorge]

Originally Posted by therabidfrog

Wo! lol You are reading way too much into this stuff. The modem sounds are just atmosphere to add to the fact that you're looking at logs. It's mostly style and atmosphere not some deep internal message about life.

What!!?? I thought it was an internal message about life!! Har har har. Seriously though, I tend to agree with you. I think some folks put a little too much meaning behind some of this stuff.

Personally I think Mr. Boakes is sitting some where laughing his ass off at all the speculation and wild theorys people come up with regarding his games. Still though, good marketing, and there really may be some kind of logic behind his madness.

I think his next game will explain every question his fans ever wanted answered. Wha? Maybe not. Then we wouldn't buy the game he makes after his next one.

[therabidfrog]

Exactly. If you look at his reply on the truth about the ending of Lost Crown you can only conclude he never wrote an ending and just filled in vague stuff that makes you think there is some deeper meaning (I've done that before on some things I've written), or he's just like things vague and ain't telling.

[Fantasysci5]

Originally Posted by HandsFree

Just a question. I have no idea what a lot of the posts are about because they contain many spoilers that I obviously don't read.I suppose you are linking things we saw in this chapter to game elements still to come.Of course I don't need to be involved in the discussions you experienced players are having, but when the playthrough is over this thread must be huge. I don't think I will be able to reread everything said at that point, and it would be less interesting.
So for instance, if there's a point in the game that gives more insight in what happened to the boy with the bike, or what's on with the dates, could we discuss that then too (instead of having the discussion now in spoilers)? If we don't, all us first timers will be missing out on a lot.
Sorry if I'm way off here, I haven't read the spoilers so maybe they're about other things. I was just wondering. And don't let me stop you posting whatever you want.

I am so sorry Handsfree. I don't mean to leave you out, but I'm trying to stimulate players who have played this before, too, so they don't get bored. Most of teh stuff in spoilers isn't really said anotehr point in the game, it's just us theorizing on the game.

Don't you worry. We will repeat it when the connection we were making comes back. I'm really sorry for making you feel left out. Please forgive me...

Originally Posted by seagul

Sorry for the spoilers - i thought we play till the second entry in the night - am i wrong?

I think it's a hint that there may be some computer involved. And that there must be a connection via computer to something/someone.

OMG...I am so sorry. I had meant that we play through to the 2nd journal entry, not the 2nd one that night. It's my bad, and I guess a lot of the people thought I meat that. Tha's fine, continue talking about it. I'm teh one who's behind. I feel like such a bad leader. Please all, forgive me.

And you're so right, there's something wrong with this world dealing with a computer.

Originally Posted by therabidfrog

I got half way through the game and so far the kid does not play into the plot at all

Spoiler:

You just see him walking around snapping pictures in different places at different times for the Saxton Snappers contest. In fact they mention him in the brochure for the contest

Bidfrog. The kid you see later in the game is not the same boy who was trying to get his teddy. (Or is he?! I've never really thought about it, but the kid with the teddy looked oldfashioned idn't he? His clothes, etc. Look at the other kid again. More modern. Just play through till the end, and it'll make sense to you. But you are right, I never thought of that other kid being connected to the kid with the teddy.

Originally Posted by seagul

We know about a kind of transmission that is beeing made by Hadden: the chasm showed some forms that seemingly wanted to come from there world, the otherside, to our (as Mr. Hare reports).
Can we connect this event with the flooded graveyard and the deads floating out of their coffins? No resting in peace here!
So: are Mr. Haddens experiments and the flooting deads somehow connected?
If they are connected, then Saxton and the experiments are connected, too.

I believe the graveyard getting disturbed brought those figures to the chasm. And you are spot on with a theory that Saxon and Hadden's experiments being connected closely. Good job!!!

And to agree with everyone, Nigel hardly ever gets scared. He sounds a bit later in the game

Spoiler:

in the Net House

, but his lack of emotion is weird.

Please forgive me guys for mixing up where we were supposed to stop. I feel so bad...

[Fien]

Originally Posted by mgeorge

As to Nigel stealing, I agree with you. Seems to me he did just print the files, although I'm sure he knew that he probably shouldn't have, so it does give a hint to his character.

You can call it whatever you want, spying, hacking, burglary... the fact remains that he succeeded in gaining access to a place where he had no right to be. And why would he run if he hadn't done anything wrong? He knew Hare and Crow were after him, he says "this may be my last chance" when he arrives in Sedgemarsh, he wants to "make amends with Hadden". There's no denying that he acts like a guilty man. Which fits in nicely with events later in the game. IMO.

Seagul, if you click on the window next to the phone booth, you'll see where the typewriter sounds are coming from.

[Fantasysci5]

Ah yes, you can see where its from, but what's interesting is that there's no one working in there...

Again, guys, I am SO sorry!!! I'm going to catch up with you guys, post my thoughts on that bit, then continue with the second chapter. I'm so sorry.

[therabidfrog]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

I believe the graveyard getting disturbed brought those figures to the chasm. And you are spot on with a theory that Saxon and Hadden's experiments being connected closely. Good job!!!

They never mention whether or not the chasm has anything to do with Saxton or it's surrounding areas. I find it hard to believe that if Nigel was going on the lamb he would head near the area he had obtained the info for.

[Fantasysci5]

If the graveyard doesn't have anything to do with Saxton, why is that newspaper explaining it in Saxton?

And how would he know where he stole his information from Hadden from. He just had a quick peak. It enver said in the documents where the chasm was...

[therabidfrog]

I know graveyard is in Saxton, but where does it say that the chasm is in the graveyard?

[mgeorge]

I'm not sure about later in the game but to this point I don't believe there's been any talk about where the chasm is located.

I agree with Fantasy though. I don't believe Nigel had any clue that Saxton was of any importance as he seems pretty oblivious of anything when he first arrives.

To Fienepien. Your right of course. Nigel knew what he did was wrong. Obviously fleeing from his place of employment lets us know this. My problem with Nigel was that I wasn't sure if I liked him or not. He could be very charming but also quite rude with his actions and attitudes towards people. Personally I liked him when he was sarcastic, but there didn't seem to be a lot of consistency in his behavior which baffled me a bit. That's not to say I didn't like his role in the game. The more I played the more I liked his character, and his eccentric personality grew on me.

I guess I'm a little confused about where we are in the playthrough. I've already spoken to

Spoiler:

Hadden on the phone

.

I've gone to far haven't I?????

To Frog. Hope you enjoy Dark Messiah. I had a blast with that game.

[therabidfrog]

I really didn't start to like Nigel till the second half. He is sort of a vapid jerk, but that feels a bit more like the writing than any fault of his own. Still he grows on you.

And thank you. This is actually my second play through of Dark Messiah. I had an older computer when I first bought it so I decided to play it again with the graphics cranked up since I've gotten a little tired of playing Left 4 Dead.

[HandsFree]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

I am so sorry Handsfree. I don't mean to leave you out, but I'm trying to stimulate players who have played this before, too, so they don't get bored..(

No worries Fantasy, I don't feel left out. Just wanted to check.
And that second journal entry is only 10 minutes or so from the first, so no problem there either.

I had a look at the stolen evidence again, and you can clearly see that Nigel was denied access to the Dark Fall project. It looks like he used mr Hadden's username/password (how could he know that?) or more likely it was mr Hadden secretly interfering to see what was going on? Any ideas what happened there at 18:49?
Anyway, he printed photographs of the chasm and a report describing the chasm being opened from within the lab (not in a graveyard). Then he tried to delete the loggings and left through the rear fire escape.
Indeed Saxton is not mentioned. I suppose he just got on the first train out.
Mr Hadden however seems to be controlling where he's going (nowhere at all, in a archaic looking train).
Hm.

[seagul]

@ therabidfrog and mgeorge
I assume, you never did analyze literature or artwork in school.
There are certain methods how you can get to understand a text or a poem or a painting. It has nothing to do with

internal message about life.

. These are scientific methods.
These methods can be applied to understand other things as well, like an adventure game.

You said: Jonathan Boakes surely didn’t intend all this stuff you are talking about – but thats not the point.
Like a bard he spent so much time inventing the story, writing and rewrinting it in his mind, adding new aspects, let the story work unconsciously his mind, till it formed a coherent whole.
Not every little bit is done intentionally, but it is done for the right feeling, that indicates an artwork is completed. Some artist even say, ist not them, who do the artwork, it is the artwork who wants to be done. (Others actually speak of god guiding their hands and minds).

But anyway, if you know nothing about art, and don’ t unterstand, what i’m talking about, why not apply these above mentioned methods and look where they lead us ?

One method is to analyze recurring motivs.
For example: the same sounds (modem), the same ideas (two different worlds meeting), the same pictures (the nightmare-room in the dreams). In this game there are so many recurring motivs, i mentioned some before.
What about the dreams Nigel has? He can see things that he cannot know, like the bell from the museum. On the other hand we hear people speaking as if they waited for Nigels arrival in Saxton. We see old things (the station and its advertisement) and modern things (Spitmoor’ s PDA). Points in an interesting direction: time is not consistently here in Saxton. And this is just the beginning.
The more we immerse in the game, the more we see who the motivs hint to special directions. If we don’t pay attention, we get confused and lose track.
Unfortunately we can’t speak free about the whole game now because it would spoil the experience for some.

[therabidfrog]

I meant deeper message of life as a joke to make a point. As a musician and artist I understand something about repeating motifs. My point is that I can also tell when I'm looking at something that is more of an aesthetic to create mood than something intended to convey a deeper meaning.

You can say the crows in the opening screen suggest something as

Spoiler:

it's directly suggested later in the game that crows are something of a watch dog for the dead. Maybe this says something about the towns people as you never see them interact and each seems to come from a different time.

All of these things tie into Welsh and Cornish mythology, paganism, blah blah blah since these legends are a common theme of all of his games and the games he's involved in.

Spoiler:

But Boakes himself more or less admitted the game has no clearly defined ending and I doubt he ever imagined one

So my point being that yes these things tie into larger myths, but mean not much a squat to the game as again

Spoiler:

it has no clear ending

But once you are to the point where your attempting to discern some greater symbolic arch in the modem noises you hear when looking at the paper you're beginning to way over analyze to the point of missing and misinterpreting the actual events and story. In other words you're looking for something that isn't there, and it causes you to miss everything else.

[HandsFree]

Just stumbled on the first bit of humor in the game.
In the extended part of chapter 1 ,
edit: (ok, in spoilers for if you're not there yet)

Spoiler:

you can hear a poem through the telephone. I wondered what it was and looked it up.
Through the telephone you hear............

'The Listeners'.

[seagul]

Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler!!
But a good joke.

[Fantasysci5]

Handsfree, I've had that extra, but when I've tried to do it before, it wouldn't do it. Could you let me know exactly when you tried it?!

[Fantasysci5]

Originally Posted by mgeorge

I guess I'm a little confused about where we are in the playthrough. I've already spoken to

Spoiler:

Hadden on the phone

.
I've gone to far haven't I?????

It's alright, mgeorge. I believe we'll be catching up with you soon, so don't worry about it. Jonathan's game is so addictive, I undestand not being able to put it down.

Originally Posted by HandsFree

I had a look at the stolen evidence again, and you can clearly see that Nigel was denied access to the Dark Fall project. It looks like he used mr Hadden's username/password (how could he know that?) or more likely it was mr Hadden secretly interfering to see what was going on? Any ideas what happened there at 18:49?
Anyway, he printed photographs of the chasm and a report describing the chasm being opened from within the lab (not in a graveyard). Then he tried to delete the loggings and left through the rear fire escape.
Indeed Saxton is not mentioned. I suppose he just got on the first train out.
Mr Hadden however seems to be controlling where he's going (nowhere at all, in a archaic looking train).Hm.

Handsfree, you're a genius. Yes, he was denied, and I always thought he used Hadden's username to log in. Who knows how he got ahold of it. Did he dig up a bit more in the database? Or would that be too blatently obvious he's sneaking, instead of "accidently" stumbling on the Dark Fall project and letting curiousity get the best of him.

He did get out on the first train out, unless you believe the theory we have that Hadden has Nigel in an experiement.

And I didn't mean that the chasm was *in* Saxton, I just meant the graveyard was *connected* to the chasm.

Originally Posted by seagul

You said: Jonathan Boakes surely didn’t intend all this stuff you are talking about – but thats not the point.
Like a bard he spent so much time inventing the story, writing and rewrinting it in his mind, adding new aspects, let the story work unconsciously his mind, till it formed a coherent whole.
Not every little bit is done intentionally, but it is done for the right feeling, that indicates an artwork is completed. Some artist even say, ist not them, who do the artwork, it is the artwork who wants to be done. (Others actually speak of god guiding their hands and minds).

One method is to analyze recurring motivs.
For example: the same sounds (modem), the same ideas (two different worlds meeting), the same pictures (the nightmare-room in the dreams). In this game there are so many recurring motivs, i mentioned some before.
What about the dreams Nigel has? He can see things that he cannot know, like the bell from the museum. On the other hand we hear people speaking as if they waited for Nigels arrival in Saxton. We see old things (the station and its advertisement) and modern things (Spitmoor’ s PDA). Points in an interesting direction: time is not consistently here in Saxton. And this is just the beginning.
The more we immerse in the game, the more we see who the motivs hint to special directions. If we don’t pay attention, we get confused and lose track.
Unfortunately we can’t speak free about the whole game now because it would spoil the experience for some.

Seagul-I agree with you. And your examples at the end, could you put the pictures in spoilers? We do not know yet that

Spoiler:

there is nightmare room.

And I agree with things not being time consistent in Saxton.

Originally Posted by therabidfrog

But Boakes himself more or less admitted the game has

Spoiler:

no clearly defined ending

and I doubt he ever imagined one.
In other words you're looking for something that isn't there, and it causes you to miss everything else.

Did we actually hear somewhere that he didn't know what he was going to do? Can you give us a link, because I didn't know that.

And he might not of meant things, but it's fun to guess deeper meanings, and makes a game more interesting to people. There are lots of people who like making up theories. Nothing wrong with that.

A question-Do you think the many theories there are themselves are spoilers? Should we put the actual theories themselves in spoilers, such as

Spoiler:

Nigel may be in Hadden't experiment, computers, etc.

I'll get back on tonight after school and catch up with you guys, then let you guys know when we'll stop chapter 2!

We'll be staring the 2nd chapter today. The first night you have (which some people have already played through), play through. You'll then get a new journal entry. Play through until morning, then stop. We won't spend too much time on this, since it's short, but I just want us to all catch up.