[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by Periglo

There are many sources confirming this point, see:
http://www.scummbar.com/resources/ar...icle&article=2

I've heard of the theory before but I've never read this article. Really interesting, it definitely makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

[ukpetd]

Black Dahlia.

All that working through then the ending. Phew. What a sinker.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Periglo

There are many sources confirming this point, see:
http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=2

I agree with Ascovel. This is just another fan theory: well-researched, obviously, but still not the truth, and I too remember Gilbert saying he had some plans for his MI3.

On a personal note, I must notice that if this is indeed the planned truth behind Monkey Island, I'm more than glad that they did continue the series otherwise, 'cause I find this explanation dreadful and juvenile, like a bad-written essay by a six year's old.

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by ukpetd

Black Dahlia.

All that working through then the ending. Phew. What a sinker.

At least the world has been saved.

[MartyMcFly]

Not so much bad as abrupt, the endings for both Broken Sword 2 and Monkey Island 3 irked me because after a brilliant game, you finish and its over with a 20 second clip!

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by ukpetd

Black Dahlia.

All that working through then the ending. Phew. What a sinker.

I used to think the same but I've mellowed since to the view that

Originally Posted by Ascovel

At least the world has been saved.

and in a way I think the ending fits the way the story has progressed all along and the other things that happened to the lead character.

My own nomination is for Fable (the quite old adventure not the RPG series) It had a number of death endings that didn't actually indicate you'd died. (like offering a new or load game option) and the actual final ending was awful.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

On a personal note, I must notice that if this is indeed the planned truth behind Monkey Island, I'm more than glad that they did continue the series otherwise, 'cause I find this explanation dreadful and juvenile, like a bad-written essay by a six year's old.

Hmmm...I wish I could write an essay like that when I was six years old.

[Jon_wachter]

I seem to remember feeling a bit let down by the ending of the first Discworld game, I think it kind of sneaked up on me and it felt like I had taken a short cut somehow and just jumped to the end! But the most dissapointing ending in the history of adventure games ever have to be the ending of Broken Sword 4 or rather the lack of an ending. Simon 2 and 3D have to be mentioned too, I'm not a big fan of open endings especially when the sequel never comes like in the case of Toonstruck.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

Hmmm...I wish I could write an essay like that when I was six years old.

You really haven't used, at least one time,

Spoiler:

the "ops, it was just a dream"

escamotage? Maybe it's only the lesson of Italian literature, but this kind of coupe de theatre is one of the most overused gimmick I've ever found and, personally, I totally dislike it...

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

You really haven't used, at least one time, the

Spoiler:

"ops, it was just a dream"

escamotage? Maybe it's only the lesson of Italian literature, but this kind of coupe de theatre is one of the most overused gimmick I've ever found and, personally, I totally dislike it...

Well, it's not exactly like that...First,

Spoiler:

he is not dreaming he is "imagining" all these things and it's different than most cases in that there a link to reality and clues that he is imagining these things

. I'm not saying it's the most original thing ever (I can think of a couple of movies like

Spoiler:

Stay and Mulholland dr.

that have something similar going on) but for a game it's certainly something original (the only one that has similarities in that aspect and I can think of right now is

Spoiler:

sanitarium

) and I think in this case it was done cleverly enough to not seem childish, at least to me. And it seems to have a "message" in there also, about the child's fantasy and imagination, similar to the movie/book bridge to terabithia.

[AndreaDraco83]

I think it's a matter of taste, that's for sure, but comparing Lynch's masterpiece Mulholland Dr. to this childish attempt to being original is far beyond my comprehension... But then again, Keregioz, didn't we sign a contract about having to disagree at least twice per day?

As he did in almost every work of his, from Eraserhead to INLAND EMPIRE, with that movie Lynch was trying to explore the abysses of human consciousness and unconsciousness, suggesting that - theoretically - dream and reality are so much interwoven that they can't be disentangled. At least, this is how I interpreted the movie: yes, because every opus by Lynch is so multi-layered that it can be signified by the viewer, according to his inner world, expectations and experiences. He's such a talented artist because he always (unless maybe in The Elephant Man) succeed in finding the right balance between these two extremes, whilst other authors tried and miserably failed (like Cameron Crowe's Vanilla Sky).

Everyone knows that I'm no Monkey Island fan, but I whole-heartily hated MI2 finale not only because I felt that it was the opposite of Lynch's technique, but also because it ended ridiculously a saga whose first installment I utterly enjoyed. That finale seems badly attached, like they run out of ideas before the end and didn't know how to wrap up all the plot points. They didn't intend to make a powerful and meaningful reflection on imagination/dream vs. harsh reality... Or, if it was indeed their goal they - at least as far as I'm concerned - miserably failed, achieving a childish, stereotypical and uninspired finale.

[Keregioz]

Also, I forgot to add...if it turns out that this theory is true (which I'm almost sure it is) then Ron Gilbert didn't use this ending as an, as you say, "escape", out of laziness or lack of imagination but he constructed the whole story to serve this ending.

[AndreaDraco83]

Now, I'm no expert by I seemed to recollect that the actual last scene kind of broke this theory. I search the net and I stumbled upon this (from Wikipedia):

The last in-game screen

Spoiler:

shows Elaine standing outside Big Whoop excavation site, wondering, "What could be keeping Guybrush? I hope LeChuck hasn't put some sort of SPELL over him

Now, I have no intention in replaying the game, but if the Wikipedia page is true, I think this last line is sufficient to say that Gilbert's original plan was another. Despite of what Bill Tiller, who - unless I'm very mistaken - never get a chance to work directly with Gilbert and, as far as I know, is only quoting a third opinion on the subject.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

I think it's a matter of taste, that's for sure, but comparing Lynch's masterpiece Mulholland Dr. to this childish attempt to being original is far beyond my comprehension... But then again, Keregioz, didn't we sign a contract about having to disagree at least twice per day?

As he did in almost every work of his, from Eraserhead to INLAND EMPIRE, with that movie Lynch was trying to explore the abysses of human consciousness and unconsciousness, suggesting that - theoretically - dream and reality are so much interwoven that they can't be disentangled. At least, this is how I interpreted the movie: yes, because every opus by Lynch is so multi-layered that it can be signified by the viewer, according to his inner world, expectations and experiences. He's such a talented artist because he always (unless maybe in The Elephant Man) succeed in finding the right balance between these two extremes, whilst other authors tried and miserably failed (like Cameron Crowe's Vanilla Sky).

Everyone knows that I'm no Monkey Island fan, but I whole-heartily hated MI2 finale not only because I felt that it was the opposite of Lynch's technique, but also because it ended ridiculously a saga whose first installment I utterly enjoyed. That finale seems badly attached, like they run out of ideas before the end and didn't know how to wrap up all the plot points. They didn't intend to make a powerful and meaningful reflection on imagination/dream vs. harsh reality... Or, if it was indeed their goal they - at least as far as I'm concerned - miserably failed, achieving a childish, stereotypical and uninspired finale.

Oh, come on...I'm pretty sure you know I'm not comparing it to Mulholland Dr., it just has some similar elements. Mulholland Dr. is my all time favorite movie and I won't compare it with anything. And on that matter I believe any attempt to compare adventure games with movies is a joke. Yes GK included . Well, maybe grim fandango...but that's another discussion.

Like I said in my next post...to me it doesn't seem like it was done because he run out of ideas or he got lazy and thought of a quick way to finish it. And it's not like it was that complex of a story that he couldn't have a simple satisfying ending.

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

Now, I'm no expert by I seemed to recollect that the actual last scene kind of broke this theory. I search the net and I stumbled upon this (from Wikipedia):



Now, I have no intention in replaying the game, but if the Wikipedia page is true, I think this last line is sufficient to say that Gilbert's original plan was another. Despite of what Bill Tiller, who - unless I'm very mistaken - never get a chance to work directly with Gilbert and, as far as I know, is only quoting a third opinion on the subject.

Well....we can never be sure unless Ron Gilbert himself reveals it.
The article already mentioned that possibly it was done by him in an attempt to keep his options open for a third game. So that doesn't prove anything.
Personally I would be satisfied if this theory turned out to be true.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Keregioz

Mulholland Dr. is my all time favorite movie[...]

My world suddenly fell apart... Mulholland Dr. is my all time favorite movie...

... Oh gosh, Keregioz, are we well? Did we actually agree on such a thing? Uhm, I guess this explain the huge amount of snow outside my window...

All jokes aside, my personal idea is that that finale was nothing but a step in an overarching plot Gilbert had in mind. So I agree with Elaine about the "spell" theory. But I stand by my point in saying that if that was indeed the ending, I surely can't think of a worst finale...

On a different note:

Originally Posted by Keregioz

And on that matter I believe any attempt to compare adventure games with movies is a joke. Yes GK included . Well, maybe grim fandango...but that's another discussion.

I won't fall in you trap, but I can't help but respond you that all the three GK have stories, atmosphere and characters just perfect for a movie or a full-fledged novel

[Keregioz]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

My world suddenly fell apart... Mulholland Dr. is my all time favorite movie...

... Oh gosh, Keregioz, are we well? Did we actually agree on such a thing? Uhm, I guess this explain the huge amount of snow outside my window...

Hmmm...seems like I violated our contract...

I won't fall in you trap, but I can't help but respond you that all the three GK have stories, atmosphere and characters just perfect for a movie or a full-fledged novel

Yes, I don't completely disagree with you, but they would need some serious re-writing to be able to work as a movie. Sometimes writing seems excellent in a game but in a movie sounds ridiculous. TLJ is another such example.

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by Jon_wachter

I seem to remember feeling a bit let down by the ending of the first Discworld game, I think it kind of sneaked up on me and it felt like I had taken a short cut somehow and just jumped to the end!

I'm not sure if it is what are you talking about, but in my version of Discworld there was a bug allowing to skip most of the third act straight to the endgame. You're not supposed to be able to take the dragon until the fourth act.

[AndreaDraco83]

Oh, obviously Jane would have to re-write them to set the pace of the plot accordingly, but all the tension, the Spannung, the charm is already here.

Anyway, after one hour and a half, I finally found what I was looking for. Once again from Wikipedia:

None of the games explicitly reveal the "Secret of Monkey Island" (although creator Ron Gilbert has stated that the secret was not revealed in any of the games, and that the true secret would be revealed if he got to work on the fifth entry in the series). LeChuck himself, when asked in the second and third games, refuses to answer the question; Guybrush can eventually prod LeChuck to confess that he does not know what the secret is.

There are many hypotheses popular among players, and at least one case can be made from each game in the series.

Spoiler:

One of these hypotheses states that the bizarre revelation at the end of MI2 is the true secret of Monkey Island (again, Ron Gilbert has confirmed that the secret is yet to be discovered, in an interview with GameSpot). The fact that it was debunked in CMI, the hypothesis states, is merely a retcon by the new development team after Ron Gilbert's departure. Elements in the closing scenes of MI2 seem to support this hypothesis, as do certain comments of pirates in the insult swordfighting section of the first game, asking Guybrush to "play along".

Members of the CMI team (many of whom were also part of the MI2 team) claimed at one point that they knew what the original secret was: that the storyline of the games was simply the fantasy of a child. Gilbert, however, has contradicted this in various interviews, saying that he never told anyone what the true secret of Monkey Island is.

The references of the aformentioned statements can be found at this link, which feature an audio interview with Gilbert himself.

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

You really haven't used, at least one time, the "ops, it was just a dream" escamotage? Maybe it's only the lesson of Italian literature, but this kind of coupe de theatre is one of the most overused gimmick I've ever found and, personally, I totally dislike it...

My feelings exactly. The same goes for the "oops, the whole story was just an acid trip" and "oops, the whole story was just a vision of a dying (or dead) man" kind of revelations (which are very often just popular interpretations of events proposed by someone from the audience). Such devices don't add anything at all to the story (except possibly disappointment) and are cheap, flashy tricks, which can be applied to every single story with a little of effort.

Almost equally bad is TLJ's final revelation that

Spoiler:

the old woman who was telling April's story is actually April many years later.

Originally Posted by Keregioz

Well....we can never be sure unless Ron Gilbert himself reveals it.
The article already mentioned that possibly it was done by him in an attempt to keep his options open for a third game. So that doesn't prove anything.

What kind of excuse is that? Either those scenes are contradicting the dream theory or not.