All info on Quantic Dream's Heavy Rain - Page 10

Intrepid Homoludens · 06-11-2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

Good Question. Enlighten us, Intrepid.

One argument I have is that because this is to be a mature themed game, mature minded people are its target audience and should easily be interested in how the subject matter is handled - as mature adults. The reality within the gameworld and story is merely a reflection of what happens in the real world. The story is set in the 'real' world. Therefore if someone objects to the content - in this case, to how the female photojournalist Madison is portrayed - shouldn't we also address how other media such as literature, film, television, and music do the same thing? What is so different about this game from other media in terms of its mature content?

I'm currently discussing this at another gaming forum. One person had this to say:

Quote:

To be honest, while there are cases that show that companies are exploiting women as a way of saying that their game is mature, there are very good cases (like what I've seen of Heavy Rain) that show that while there are, indeed, attractive female characters in the game, the characters themselves are not being exploited, and the maturity of the game comes from the narrative, storyline, and presentation.

It also ties into the themes that are involved in the game. For instance, murder is a much more mature theme to adventure into a game, especially if what I hear of Heavy Rain is true (and it actually goes inside the mind and machinations of this killer).

Also, take into context the character herself. Madison, in the story, is a very intelligent, attractive, independent, and even cunning and resourceful woman, and she uses those talents in her field of investigative reporting. Given the reality of the story and its mature setting, how else can the narrative portray her? If she were a man and the situation reversed - say, a male strip club where the female boss orders him at gunpoint to take his clothes off - would there even be a discussion over this?

One thing I'll also bring up is that one of the characters, an FBI agent, has a drug addiction. It's so pronounced that it interferes with his faculties, and the player must decide whether to give him his fix. It turns out in at least one scene that (at 1:35) it becomes a matter of life or death for the character. If we are going to address female exploitation, why not also drug addiction and whatever other mature themes games in general can explore?

After all, past games have already done some of these things. One that I can think of is the original Silent Hill, where a certain drug, White Claudia, was part of the subject matter, however marginally handled.

As well, I emailed this (along with links to the two clips and the E3 trailer) to my two nieces upstate, one is 25 and her younger sister is 20 and is an avid gamer. I want to know their take on this.

Intrepid Homoludens · 06-11-2009, 07:49 PM

Okay, my niece, who is 20 and a student at U.C. Davis, just got back to me about this:

Quote:

Given the context (using it to her advantage), at no point during the scene did I feel like the game was glorifying low respect for women. If she was being submissive it was because some nasty thug was pointing a gun at her. The game doesn't look like it's portraying Paco's treatment of women in any sort of positive light and it's clearly a weakness for all of Paco's male ego and power. And obviously she got the better of him and got some justice out of it. I thought the scene said, "You think women are dumb whores and look where that got you."

Krystal · 06-12-2009, 08:18 AM

Cool game, but I'm frustrated that this game wouldn't be in PC. And unfortunately I would not go to buy a PS3, so is a shame.

*stepurhan* · 06-12-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

One argument I have is that because this is to be a mature themed game, mature minded people are its target audience and should easily be interested in how the subject matter is handled - as mature adults.

This is a flawed argument. You're starting from the assumption that the content can be considered "mature" and hence only a "mature" audience will view it (and judge it accordingly). I'm saying that if you're going to include things that appeal to the hormonal teenager market then you're going to end up selling to hormonal teenagers instead. To say, as you did, that this this scene kills the idea of games appealing to hormonal teenagers you have to show why hormonal teenagers won't be attracted by this scene. I'm not seeing that at the moment.

Quote:

The reality within the gameworld and story is merely a reflection of what happens in the real world. The story is set in the 'real' world. Therefore if someone objects to the content - in this case, to how the female photojournalist Madison is portrayed - shouldn't we also address how other media such as literature, film, television, and music do the same thing? What is so different about this game from other media in terms of its mature content?

Quite simply, yes, we shoudl address how other media portrays women. Otherwise you're eseentially saying that, because other forms of media exploit women it's OK for games to do so as well. I really hope that isn't what you mean.

Quote:

Also, take into context the character herself. Madison, in the story, is a very intelligent, attractive, independent, and even cunning and resourceful woman, and she uses those talents in her field of investigative reporting. Given the reality of the story and its mature setting, how else can the narrative portray her?

Here's a thought. Why didn't they break the (hormonal teenager-attracting) convention of having her as some hot chick and make her a more normal looking woman? As you've pointed out, this game is supposed to be set in the real world. The real world is full of an astonishing variety of women, most of whom don't conform to stereotypes of "beauty", and are all the more interesting because of it. A Madison without the hot body would have to resort to much more clever manouvres to get what she wants. Resorting to the rather tired "woman uses sexuality to get what she wants" is a bit disappointing.

Quote:

If she were a man and the situation reversed - say, a male strip club where the female boss orders him at gunpoint to take his clothes off - would there even be a discussion over this?

Maybe not, but again, this comes back to how the media in general show things. More female exploitation is adding to a pervasive portrayal that demeans women by it's prevalence. By comparison, a single act of male exploitation isn't going to affect much.

Quote:

One thing I'll also bring up is that one of the characters, an FBI agent, has a drug addiction. It's so pronounced that it interferes with his faculties, and the player must decide whether to give him his fix. It turns out in at least one scene that (at 1:35) it becomes a matter of life or death for the character. If we are going to address female exploitation, why not also drug addiction and whatever other mature themes games in general can explore?

Actually it sounds like the game is exploring the theme of drug addiction. I can't help noticing that it's being portrayed as a bad thing (given it causes life or death situations) Even accepting that the stripping is being portrayed as bad (which is a fair argument, she is being held at gunpoint) how is Madison dressing in slutty clothing addressing the issue of women being treated as sex objects? It's all very well to talk about her "using her sexuality" but this almost seems to be suggesting that women can't achieve their aims any other way.

One final thought. In the scene as demod Madison gets the better of Paco. However, this is Heavy Rain we're dealing with here, where success and failure is possible and the storyline can take new direction from both. I'm curious as to what happens if Madison fails to turn the tables (if the option isn't there then that's one example of Heavy Rain not achieving one of it's stated aims) Is there a limit to how far this scene should go?

Gonzosports · 06-13-2009, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

This is a flawed argument. You're starting from the assumption that the content can be considered "mature" and hence only a "mature" audience will view it (and judge it accordingly). I'm saying that if you're going to include things that appeal to the hormonal teenager market then you're going to end up selling to hormonal teenagers instead.

I agree - but I think the way you approach something is what will make it mature/immature. If you show a scantily clad woman in the context of titillation, than that's what you'll get. In this context, though, I think what you have is a presentation that is clearly meant for an older audience.

I say that, but these days, young kids are allowed to play GTA IV, so what do I know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Quite simply, yes, we shoudl address how other media portrays women. Otherwise you're eseentially saying that, because other forms of media exploit women it's OK for games to do so as well. I really hope that isn't what you mean.

I think IH's point is in examining how society as a whole "exploit" women. There's a huge gap between showing how women are exploiting, and actually exploiting them. That presenting real women in real world situations makes the game more likely to feel as if it exists in our world, and by proxy, more immersive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Here's a thought. Why didn't they break the (hormonal teenager-attracting) convention of having her as some hot chick and make her a more normal looking woman? As you've pointed out, this game is supposed to be set in the real world. The real world is full of an astonishing variety of women, most of whom don't conform to stereotypes of "beauty", and are all the more interesting because of it.

Claptrap.

I am halfway facetious, but she's not a Jim Lee breasts-in-zero-g drawing. I actually do find her fairly unusual and real looking. I've often wondered why protagonists in adventure games are so often female. I'm not complaining, I'm just curious - since in the majority of fiction, men are usually the protagonist. Not that that's right, but it does strike me in the AG medium.

What is a stereotype of beauty? I don't want to digress (too much) here, but I think we all have personal opinions of what we find attractive and I honestly found this statement confusing. But, I digress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Even accepting that the stripping is being portrayed as bad (which is a fair argument, she is being held at gunpoint) how is Madison dressing in slutty clothing addressing the issue of women being treated as sex objects? It's all very well to talk about her "using her sexuality" but this almost seems to be suggesting that women can't achieve their aims any other way.

I never will view stripping as exploitation, but again another subject for another time. I also react to the idea that showing women who use sexuality to further their aims is somehow sexist - when in fact, the idea of holding women up to a higher standard is what's truly sexist - the notion that men are allowed to use lower forms to advance in society (intimidation, muscle, situational ethics in the workplace) but women are expected to advance purely on the basis of talent, intelligence and quality. It's silly.

In the end, I don't really have any arguments with either yours or IH's take on Heavy Rain - I think we really have to be able to play the game to see these scenes and the game in their proper context.

I agreed though with IH's points, and join his enthusiasm for a game that might actually approach our world, warts and all, from a more artistic/realistic approach. I hope that happens, but I wouldn't be surprised, Stepurhan, if the game does fall back on video game cliches and objectification to sell extra copies. Hope not. Context is everything - we'll have to see how the game presents the female characters.

I just wrote a lot because I write a lot on sexual politics, and I tend to chafe at the whole sexploitation thing. Sexism is real and awful, but we tend to identify often in areas where it is absent, while completely missing it where it's staring us in the face.

youfightlikeadairyfarmer · 06-13-2009, 07:03 AM

Other than the fact that she's incredibly realistic, I don't think she's that pretty at all. It's like they wanted her to look like Olivia Benson, but they managed a very plain-looking version. But if she wants to try to look good and flirt to get information, that's just classic reporter activity and it's something that women do a lot.

"Mature" is a really stupid word to use for content advisory and it always has been. What's the mature way to play a game where you get to eviscerate your enemies in showers of blood? Do you smugly say, "oh, this game shows us how society has gone wrong," every few minutes or do you enjoy killing people, "FUCKING A DID YOU SEE THAT GUY'S HEAD COME OFF?!". If it's the first, that's stupid and you probably wouldn't even play it. If it's the second then what's the difference between saying that at 31 vs. saying that at 11? It's not like they have to put in the gore/swearing/nudity. They do because people like it. I know I love to shoot people especially in the head in games, I definitely don't feel I enjoy it because I'm mature. Same thing goes for drugs/nudity/swearing etc.

"Adult" would have been better, but that word has referred to porno for so long, it can't be used for games that just have blood and violence.

Keregioz · 06-13-2009, 10:57 AM

Obviously you have "internet standards" when it comes to woman beauty. I think she is really pretty. Her face might not be "hot" pretty but her body certainly is.

TiAgUh · 06-13-2009, 03:08 PM

^ Or maybe we're used to hotter girls?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Okay, my niece, who is 20 and a student at U.C. Davis, just got back to me about this:

Ok ok, now let's talk more about your niece ...

Keregioz · 06-13-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

^ Or maybe we're used to hotter girls?

Yes, that's what I mean't... you're spoiled by the incredibly hot chicks you see on the internet and you have completely unrealistic standards about how a normal beautiful woman should look like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

Ok ok, now let's talk more about your niece ...

+1....pics or it didn't happen.

TiAgUh · 06-13-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keregioz

Yes, that's what I mean't... you're spoiled by the incredibly hot chicks you see on the internet(...)

Who said anything about internet?
I'm talking real life mayne

! All my (girl)friends are hot, even their moms!

It's like paradise in here!

I would invite you so you could see for yourself.. but after Euro2004

F-U!

Keregioz · 06-13-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

I would invite you so you could see for yourself.. but after Euro2004

F-U!

HAHAHA!

Don't worry though.....here in Greece girls are pretty awesome too...no complains

(edit: p.s. it's been 5 years and I still can't believe it)

*Melanie68* · 06-14-2009, 04:33 AM

Psst. Let's get back on topic guys. Thanks.

Ninja Dodo · 06-16-2009, 01:10 AM

Looking at recent coverage I still have my misgivings about the seemingly QTE-heavy gameplay and Cage's over-reliance on mocap (zombie faces!) but I will confess some curiosity as to how this title turns out and when (eventually) I get a PS3 I'll definitely be giving this a try.

nomadsoul · 08-18-2009, 11:35 AM

kadji-kun · 08-18-2009, 01:18 PM

Thanks nomad. What a great post you have there. I love the concepts. I remember seeing number 12 at my an art show in Hollywood a month or so ago. Right next to my friends exhibit.

Time to save them to disc.

Intrepid Homoludens · 08-18-2009, 06:41 PM

For Love trailer (HD version) | Gametrailers

Latest trailer introduces what looks to be the third playable character. He's a dad.

OMG, your emotions as an integral part of the gameplay!

charmed23 · 08-18-2009, 08:33 PM

hey thanks a bunch for the update!
Im totally getting the PS3Slim for this, and Uncharted

AndreaDraco83 · 08-19-2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

OMG, your emotions as an integral part of the gameplay!

So says the press release

Now, don't get me wrong: I think that the game has a great potential. The graphics are luscious, the music splendid, the atmosphere absolutely mesmerizing, the voice acting good (except for the policeman)... And yet, as soon as I see buttons and arrows materialize on the screen for the player to accordingly press at the right time, I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

Intrepid Homoludens · 08-19-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

So says the press release

Now, don't get me wrong: I think that the game has a great potential. The graphics are luscious, the music splendid, the atmosphere absolutely mesmerizing, the voice acting good (except for the policeman)... And yet, as soon as I see buttons and arrows materialize on the screen for the player to accordingly press at the right time, I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

You were expecting a slider puzzle?

AndreaDraco83 · 08-19-2009, 02:21 AM

No, of course not. But I wasn't expecting - better, I wasn't hoping for a Dragon's Lair revamp either.

06-12-2009, 08:18 AM	#183
Krystal Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 52	Cool game, but I'm frustrated that this game wouldn't be in PC. And unfortunately I would not go to buy a PS3, so is a shame. Share Share this post on Twitter

06-13-2009, 07:03 AM	#186
youfightlikeadairyfarmer Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 189	Other than the fact that she's incredibly realistic, I don't think she's that pretty at all. It's like they wanted her to look like Olivia Benson, but they managed a very plain-looking version. But if she wants to try to look good and flirt to get information, that's just classic reporter activity and it's something that women do a lot. "Mature" is a really stupid word to use for content advisory and it always has been. What's the mature way to play a game where you get to eviscerate your enemies in showers of blood? Do you smugly say, "oh, this game shows us how society has gone wrong," every few minutes or do you enjoy killing people, "FUCKING A DID YOU SEE THAT GUY'S HEAD COME OFF?!". If it's the first, that's stupid and you probably wouldn't even play it. If it's the second then what's the difference between saying that at 31 vs. saying that at 11? It's not like they have to put in the gore/swearing/nudity. They do because people like it. I know I love to shoot people especially in the head in games, I definitely don't feel I enjoy it because I'm mature. Same thing goes for drugs/nudity/swearing etc. "Adult" would have been better, but that word has referred to porno for so long, it can't be used for games that just have blood and violence. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ "Oh yeah?"

06-13-2009, 10:57 AM	#187
Keregioz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Greece Posts: 638	Obviously you have "internet standards" when it comes to woman beauty. I think she is really pretty. Her face might not be "hot" pretty but her body certainly is. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ "Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)

06-14-2009, 04:33 AM	#192
Melanie68 Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 8,907	Psst. Let's get back on topic guys. Thanks. Share Share this post on Twitter

06-16-2009, 01:10 AM	#193
Ninja Dodo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,459	Looking at recent coverage I still have my misgivings about the seemingly QTE-heavy gameplay and Cage's over-reliance on mocap (zombie faces!) but I will confess some curiosity as to how this title turns out and when (eventually) I get a PS3 I'll definitely be giving this a try. Share Share this post on Twitter

08-18-2009, 11:35 AM	#194
nomadsoul Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 331	DAMN awesome Notice water on ground(left) and water on car (right), and droplet on his nose http://pic.leech.it/i/54a74/1da8baefscreenshot.jpg New leads http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/1.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/2.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/3.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/7.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/8.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/14.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/15.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/16.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/17.jpg concepts http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/19.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/20.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/12.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/11.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/10.jpg http://users.skynet.be/fa036594/Heavy/9.jpg Share Share this post on Twitter

08-18-2009, 01:18 PM	#195
kadji-kun Banned User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 784	Thanks nomad. What a great post you have there. I love the concepts. I remember seeing number 12 at my an art show in Hollywood a month or so ago. Right next to my friends exhibit. Time to save them to disc. Share Share this post on Twitter

08-18-2009, 06:41 PM	#196
Intrepid Homoludens merely human Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 22,309	For Love trailer (HD version) \| Gametrailers Latest trailer introduces what looks to be the third playable character. He's a dad. OMG, your emotions as an integral part of the gameplay! Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs \| gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii \| blog: a space alien \| book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris \| games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain \| sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer \| music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake \| twitter: a_space_alien

08-18-2009, 08:33 PM	#197
charmed23 Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 63	hey thanks a bunch for the update! Im totally getting the PS3Slim for this, and Uncharted Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ My Love: Zoe Castillo & Lara Croft

08-19-2009, 02:21 AM	#200
AndreaDraco83 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Italy Posts: 2,684	No, of course not. But I wasn't expecting - better, I wasn't hoping for a Dragon's Lair revamp either. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Top Ten Adventures: Gabriel Knight Series, King's Quest VI, Conquests of the Longbow, Quest for Glory II, Police Quest III, Gold Rush!, Leisure Suit Larry III, Under a Killing Moon, Conquests of Camelot, Freddy Pharkas Frontier Pharmacist. Now Playing: Neverwinter Nights, Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box Last edited by AndreaDraco83; 08-19-2009 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Oops... Wrong Title :)

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