[Dara100]

My approach to adventure games is a bit philosophical. I read reviews when available, but being impatient usually am one of the first to play a new title which looks promising, especially when it's part of a series or a sequel. Setting my mind to appreciate the positives and give less weight to the negatives makes for a more balanced view of the game, I find.

Threre are things which will make me reject a game outright such as keyboard control and timed puzzles, but if they are highly praised games sometimes I'll try even them. That makes for quite a few games that I'll quit halfway through, but at least I know what the buzz is about and usually agree with the high points.

Finding a game that has it all for me is so rare that of hundreds I've played I'll bet there are not more than ten. I enjoyed TLJ very much, but it too is on my B list with the other must plays. Ok, some of the puzzles required a hint or two, but overall I'd recommend it without reservation, same with all the suggestions here. Great titles all, but I can think of bits of each you may not like.

You may find that illogical puzzles are a dealbreaker for you. That will require reading reviews to determine beforehand if the title will send you over the edge. Just don't expect any game to meet all your expectations and the experience may be more positive.

[Orange Brat]

I am completely sick of adventure games and The Longest Journey was the last straw. There I said it.

I haven't read the rest of your rant, but I will do so after this reply. I agree that TLJ is not all that. I'm puzzled by the love it receives. It's good, no doubt, but it isn't the best of it's class nor is it, by any stretch of the imagination, the last "good/great" adv. game released in the past 9 years.

I am puzzled by your reaction to Grim Fandango, though. That is one of the best of class games. It simply has few equals (and I don't hate nor love the controls).

And if this is the best the genre can do, then I agree with the mainstream media saying adventure gaming is dead.

The mainstream game media are chalk full of a bunch of buffoons. The adv. genre never died. Around the year 2000 and the couple years on either side of it, the genre was in a bad place and it was basically in some sort of hiberation mode. This all changed wtih Syberia and Runaway 1. The genre is making a killing (when you adjust.....it isn't going to do Bioshock numbers, but sales by today's standards are very good compared to say 2002f). Some titles are selling hundreds of thousands of copies and by gaming standards that is more than excellent. Ninety eight percent of games fail and few can boast that number of sales. The genre is alive and well and has been for the past several years.

Now, only if the "mainstream" media would do some research and stop flogging a dead horse (the genre is dead mantra), all would be well.

[TangentBlack]

I agree with you, Orange, the genre is not at all dead. I have seen some numbers as of this year and it was competing with other genres fairly well. Not only that, but their has been some releases as of late that brought individuals into the folds of adventure gaming with some pretty innovative ideas. Games like Overclocked, Vampyre Story, and Grey Matter are getting good media hype which contributes to the overall popularity and possibilites of the genre.

Hopefully Andii will specify as to the reasons he disliked Grim. I am trying to keep my personal feelings out of the matter considering it is my favorite video game I have ever been privledged to play, but I am sure they are the only thing that is pushing me to understand his opinion.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Oh, this is such an old argument, the occasional disillusioned AG player.

[Melanie68]

The thing is, this isn't an arguement. A new member came here to vent about his frustration with some of the adventure games he's played, listed things that frustrated him about those games and asked for some recommendations based on that so that he could find some fun game(s) to play.

God forbid, he doesn't like games that have been the more popular ones in the genre. What is so wrong with that? It's not the end of the world that he didn't like TLJ or *gasp* Grim Fandango or Sam & Max. Get over it. No amount of dissecting his reasons for not liking it is going to necessarily make everyone feel better. Vive la difference!

My goal was to help him find some games that he would enjoy playing because life is too damn short to do things you don't enjoy.

(That was my vent and not directed at anyone in particular.)

[Orange Brat]

It's not the end of the world that he didn't like TLJ or *gasp* Grim Fandango or Sam & Max.

Yeah, it is. I'm off to drink a 5th I'm so distraught. :p

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by andii

I am completely sick of adventure games and The Longest Journey was the last straw. There I said it...

I'm sorry you were so disappointed with TLJ. I've played it, too, and personally I was disappointed myself at some of its details, even though I consider it one of the very best adventure games I've ever played (best doesn't always mean perfect, of course). But as Specksie pointed out, TLJ doesn't necessarily represent the entirety of this kind of game, especially given highly 'individualistic' titles like Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy.

QFG stated that it "...sounds like the games you've been playing haven't been meeting your own personal requirements." I think it's good that you know what you want. But also know that just because you have your own personal requirements doesn't make your criticism invalid at all against how adventure games are typically designed. You are not the first person to come here feeling this way.

I loved TLJ primarily for the ideas behind its story - rites of passage, friendship, the awakening of maturity, destiny, and other themes. As for the puzzles, they ultimately fall under that idiosyncratic nature for which adventure games are known. Let's just say it, adventure game puzzles often have a logic of their own, irrespective of real world workings or common sense. Sometimes you just have to throw your hands in the air and say "WTF! This goddamn s*** does not make any ****ing sense!!" And really, we're right to feel in that way. It's as if the designer has some stupid idea of how we are supposed to solve HIS/HER puzzle and doesn't give a crap otherwise.

But that's how it goes, really. It depends on what attitude you bring into the gameplay. Sometimes it's great fun to decidedly slip yourself into that frame of mind and then you solve the puzzle and it's awesome.

I have a history with this community of being one of the most outspoken critics in regards to the state of the adventure game in the past several or more years. I hear your grievance and completely understand your frustration.

One of my major complaints is that so many adventure game designers seem tunnel-minded in terms of the concept of puzzles, or as I prefer to put it, intellectual challenges. The puzzles in so many bona fide adventure games tend to feel superficial, slapped on, and completely out of place. They don't emerge organically from the gameworld and the story. But that's the standard modus operandi in the adventure game. Maybe they're supposed to be practically stuck on just for the sake of challenging you. Often times they feel like typical puzzle games that happen to have a story in them.

In any case, that's how many adventure games come, like it or not. But as some of us here have pointed out, new adventures are coming and they may do a better job at integrating the challenges for you and at the daunting task of actually designing good puzzles. Puzzles that truly make sense, and make even more sense once you solve them.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing how Jane Jensen's Gray Matter turns out, as well as A Vampyre Story. These two games seem to be classic adventure game types in terms of design and concept. In which case I anticipate how they will refine the traditional architecture of this kind of game. Let's wait and see.

[Enter the Story]

Originally Posted by andii

That puzzle was [...] merely an artificial block just to slow the player down.... A frustrated gamer.

I totally agree. I hate roadblock puzzles. The best games use puzzles as part of the story, the worst games simply create barriers. A puzzle should only exist to make you feel part of the story. Right now I'm designing the puzzles in my own game, and this is the number one requirement. If a puzzle is not a meaningful part of the story, if it does not make sense or does not progress the plot, then it has to go.

[hush]

I just got done playing TLJ, I'll just add to this thread my thoughts on the game.

Personally, I thought it wasn't anything special. Decent story, but we've seen the same plots before, but just in different representations or forms. Graphics were good (though I could have done without close ups on April's face). Voice acting was superb (swearing adds a nice 'realism' to games, but some of the swearing in this game was a bit excessive like Flipper). Puzzles just seemed to require a bit of clicking everything with everything together to figure out what was needed (item to item or item to environment), wasn't too bad.

Some of the storyline stuff they could have hashed out better. I thought the antagonists were introduced face-to-face to the protagonist way too late in the game. I just didn't develop any kind of animosity towards the antagonists, we just got bits of information about the enemy here and there and then only in the last few chapters did we actually meet them.

The Holloway character just seemed like he was underutilized or underdeveloped, neither a solid bad or good guy. He just seemed like he was just thrown into the storyline without much thought. Same kind of deal with McAllen's character development, just didn't think he was that omnious 'main' villain that a lot of good adventure games have.

Also the 'class' society of Newport was just thrown into the storyline without much explanation on how or why that came to be in Newport. All I knew was you needed an I.D. to get into the 'rich' areas of Newport and that was about all the 'class' society storyline we had. The colony stuff was underdeveloped as well.

In summary, a solid effort but I really didn't get into the game as much as other adventures I have played. I'm still a bit undecided if I want to try Dreamfall or not.

[tsa]

I had problems following the storyline, but when I read April's diary I was relieved to find that she also didn't understand everything that happened.
I played the Dutch version. Either we are not easily offended by the swearing (as the saying goes: swearing like a Dutchman), or they went easy on the swearing during translation.
It was good to play a story that didn't have a happy ending for a change. And I agree, TLJ wasn't very special IMO too. For some reason though, I find Dreamfall fantastic, despite all its flaws. Try it!

[Atlantis]

You think Sam n Max, Grim fandango and Broken sword are dissappointing?? *Bitch slap* This is all.

[Crapstorm]

Originally Posted by tolworthy

I totally agree. I hate roadblock puzzles. The best games use puzzles as part of the story, the worst games simply create barriers.

I have a completely different perspective to this issue. I would say that the best games create brilliant puzzles and build an appropriate setting and narrative context around them. (Naturally, I dislike The Longest Journey too.)

[cw2381]

I totally agree that The Longest Journey was horrible. Except for me the genre had been cold in its grave for a long while already. I remember playing GK1: Sins of the Fathers and thinking "who is writing this garbage?". But GK1 wasn't even that bad, it was those first few Kings Quests that were the real stinkers. /sarcasm off.

Seriously some people just don't like adventure games which is totally understandable, but it seems a bit silly to say "I would like adventure games, if they just were not a thing like adventure games." Having to do a series of specific things in a particular order is sort of one of the defining things of the genre. Adventure games would be way easier if you had access to a checkbook/credit card and could drive to walmart and buy whatever you need to get by a particular obstacle. But then they would actually pretty much suck.

[Merricat]

Even within the conventions of the adventure game, there are so many variances, interpretations, permutations, that it's really not possible to paint them all with the same brush--that is, I think comparisons are unavoidable, but unproductive. I love exotic locales, an interesting story and a protaganist with a sense of humor, so I enjoyed the Broken Sword I and II, and the first three in the Monkey Island series. And the fact that both George and Guybrush were voiced by skilled actors put those games over the top for me. But I do think there's a game for everyone who is interested in the genre. Then again, I've played numerous games that don't live up to my expectations and found a fair amount of enjoyment in it, nonetheless. I love third person adventure unconditionally; how dull of me. Never mind.

[Enter the Story]

Originally Posted by Crapstorm

I have a completely different perspective to this issue. I would say that the best games create brilliant puzzles and build an appropriate setting and narrative context around them. (Naturally, I dislike The Longest Journey too.)

Yes, I think there are two distinct ways to look at adventures and I am definitely in a minority. Most people enjoy a good puzzle. My local supermarket is full of puzzle books, and the casual game market is dominated by puzzles. But I'd be happy to play a game without a single puzzle, as long as the story was good.

[Terramax]

I'm not worked up if this guy doesn't like half of the classics. If he's lost his faith in adventures that's his problem.

I'm pretty damn picky with adventures myself. I dislike TLJ, didn't think anything of DOTT or the original S &M, I was let down by Riven and the first Gabriel knight and first Monkey Island didn't impact me in the slightest. But I'm still here readying for the next line of adventures.

I hope the guy has more luck with FPS's.

P.S. Welcome cw2381

[maphisto_2000]

I started play TLJ for the first time a few days ago after downloading it from Steam as well.

It may be my strange logic but so far I found all the puzzles logical given the choice of items in your inventory.

The combining of the clothes line with the gripping thingy and the rubber ducky was quality.

and to get inside the cinema it was obvious that the shadow on the wall looked like the cop... the monkey starts his phrase with "put your hands up" and all the dangerously flammable material in the bin. April virtually tells you what to do.

Yes it's quirky but it's logical given the environment and the available items.

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Originally Posted by Terramax

I'm not worked up if this guy doesn't like half of the classics.

It's not about "worked up" for me, it's simply "okay, then you're in the wrong place--try a different game genre".

Me? I have enjoyed many recent AG releases; not all, but most.

I mean, it's not like the game houses are not responding to market demands. We get what we ask for, more or less, less the occasional fringe job.

[Squinky]

And if we don't get what we ask for, we have the tools to make it ourselves!

(to some degree)

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by Not A Speck Of Cereal

...then you're in the wrong place--try a different game genre".

There are many games that use similar mechanics but he has played AGs he's liked. I am a firm believer that the genre is diverse enough in its offerings, that there are games out there for most tastes (now they may not be there in high numbers, but they're there).

I am also worried the poor guy may not come back.