[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Unfortunately for you, you have absolutely no basis for your theory, other than "I think Ron is lying" and "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!".

I do have a basis for my theory, culled from several sources, including exploration of a WIP MI2 demo. I explained it before, in the MI5 thread. But since no one believes me when I present it, why bother doing so again?

[CrimsonBlue]

Well, these are still people, who had nothing to do with the games whatsoever analyzing a game made by the creators of the pinnacles of adventure games. I mean, I don't believe this theory, I don't necessarily believe my own theory. It's just a theory, I just think "maybe it's like that". I just know for certain that your theory is fundamentally flawed.

And why the heck would a game that's been so well thought out all throughout the games just suddenly end like that? I mean, the industry wasn't a billion-dollar industry so deadlines were much less of a threat back then, and it certainly wasn't rushed out for the holiday season, as I know the game came out around may/june before summer vacation - you know, when people buy the least games.

Just because it's hard to explain an ending doesn't mean it's a bad ending. And the "proofs" you've seen aren't proofs. They're only references. There are also a lot of references to Star Wars... that doesn't mean it's set in a galaxy far far away.

Not to mention the demo not showing anything ending related? Heh, that's vague. How many demos doesn't show anything ending related? I'd say the chances are low to find anything ending related in demos, especially in rolling demos from way back when. Back when they really had to think about saving space. The game's on 11 disks (on the Amiga), how big is the rolling demo again?

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Well, these are still people, who had nothing to do with the games whatsoever analyzing a game made by the creators of the pinnacles of adventure games. I mean, I don't believe this theory, I don't necessarily believe my own theory. It's just a theory, I just think "maybe it's like that". I just know for certain that your theory is fundamentally flawed.

And why the heck would a game that's been so well thought out all throughout the games just suddenly end like that? I mean, the industry wasn't a billion-dollar industry so deadlines were much less of a threat back then, and it certainly wasn't rushed out for the holiday season, as I know the game came out around may/june before summer vacation - you know, when people buy the least games.

Just because it's hard to explain an ending doesn't mean it's a bad ending. And the "proofs" you've seen aren't proofs. They're only references. There are also a lot of references to Star Wars... that doesn't mean it's set in a galaxy far far away.

Not to mention the demo not showing anything ending related? Heh, that's vague. How many demos doesn't show anything ending related? I'd say the chances are low to find anything ending related in demos, especially in rolling demos from way back when. Back when they really had to think about saving space. The game's on 11 disks (on the Amiga), how big is the rolling demo again?

No matter what I say you won't listen. So I'm not going to try any longer.

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

No matter what I say you won't listen. So I'm not going to try any longer.

Uhm, I've been listening from the beginning, and I've read all of the theories. I just don't believe them. Does me having a different opinion than you, not agreeing with you automatically mean I don't listen?

You're not going to change my opinion. Having an open mind doesn't automatically mean agreeing with YOU. I've heard (read) everything you've said so far, and I'm still not convinced. Why should I change my stance when I don't find that your stance is good enough?

Oh that's right... I'm a fanboy, right? After all, believing what Ron himself says and not agreeing with the theories automaticaly makes me a close-minded fanboy. That's basically what you're saying.

Closing comments: sure, there are plenty of reasons why this theory of yours (and many others) can be true. But there are even more reasons to believe they are not. You're asking us to accept an unfinished game. I assume you think the end of Shenmue 2 IS the end of the Shenmue saga as well. If not, why? Because the creator has said so?

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

I do have a basis for my theory, culled from several sources, including exploration of a WIP MI2 demo. I explained it before, in the MI5 thread. But since no one believes me when I present it, why bother doing so again?

I think it's a very valid theory. And I think you present your arguments slightly better than most people who discuss the ending of MI2, in fact.

I happened to browse The Scumm Bar the other day and found out that in MI1 there really are references to the secret of Monkey Island... So I was wrong about that one.

Anyway, Schafer and Grossman did talk Gilbert out of the "Gybrush is a kid" ending in MI1, so that alone would suggest to me that they didn't always really know how their games were going to end. So yes, it's possible that they didn't know how the game will end - maybe they had different endings to choose from.

It is also possible, for a writer, to write a story and not know how it will end. Despite that, the story will end up having unintentional hints to thing that will happen in the past and so on. And the writing process doesn't have to be fully linear...

[Periglo]

Originally Posted by Wormsie

It is also possible, for a writer, to write a story and not know how it will end.

It happens often in movie and series scripts. There's the famous example of Raymond Chandler writing The Big Sleep as they filmed it, not knowing how to finish the story in advance, and actually leaving one of the murders unexplained. About MI2, I always had the hunch that was the ending, sensible if unsatisfying, and this has been reinforced from what I've read in this thread (and references therein, such as the fine article at scummBar).

[Junkface]

Actually the story about The Big Sleep is that Howard Hawks was making the movie, adapted from Chandler's already published novel and he (or alternately Bogart) suddenly realised the driver's death isn't explained and wired Chandler for the answer. Chandler replied that he didn't know. The point is that Chandler wasn't all that interested in plot.

As for Monkey Island 2's ending I always just assumed Gilbert had become bored with the series and it was his attempt to kill it as spectacularly as possible, though I have no real basis for this feeling. ATMachine's theory seems to me the most plausible, though it's possible at the stage of the rolling demo the ending simply wasn't locked down in enough detail for a room list to be made or Gilbert was still arguing with Schafer and Grossman about the idea's merits.

[Wormsie]

Now that I've been (re-)reading some reviews at the Scumm Bar, I've got two impressions:

1) In 1990 Ron said in an interview that the vending machines and other anachronisms in MI1 are significant and their part will be revealed in the sequel. He makes it sound as if the vending machine was an unintentional addition at first. Also, the game was changed in production to know which parts worked and which didn't. However, that would suggest that they did know something of how to end MI2.

2) They did change a lot of stuff while designing Monkey Island 1. Apparently Herman Toothrot came on at a very late stage, as well as the three trials.

I think the ending is ambiguous and I like it that way. And I really don't think it matters that much anyway...

[TiAgUh]

..no need for me to make a new thread about this :

Originally Posted by CrimsonBlue

Anyone ever played Chrono Cross? Two worlds, somewhat related.

is it any good?

Loved Chrono Trigger

[Zanthia]

Wow. Its second immortal topic.

[CrimsonBlue]

Originally Posted by TiAgUh

..no need for me to make a new thread about this :



is it any good?

Loved Chrono Trigger

It's not as good as Chrono Trigger (and that's coming from someone who played Cross before Trigger), but it's certainly among the best jrpgs on the PS1. I'd rate it higher than FFVIII for example, but not as good as FFVII and IX.

So, in short, it's great.

[vivasawadee]

I've come to the conclusion that Monkey Islands 2 ending was a great ending and they should've finished the series right there. It was very tongue in cheek and even now its being debated (over-passionately by some). I'm not sure the writers had a concrete idea of what the "secret" of Monkey Island really was but it sure as hell sounds much cooler than Monky Island Quest.