[nomadsoul]

This game is catching lots of debate amongst homos/gays.
The creator is homohater, and he expressed his hate towards gays , labeling them as psychos, since its scientifically proven by some that homosexuality is psycholigical problem.

Ofcourse as expected there was surge of gay supporters banning game purchase.

How many homos here can get to such extent?
Well how many gays are here on this site?
Is this really that sensitive issue?

And if i am not informed wrong , this is the guy and his one article among many

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

[...]since its scientifically proven by some that homosexuality is psycholigical problem.

By who?

Maybe thirty or forty years ago, but surely - and fortunately - not today.

I know nothing about the game, but I found the article you posted extremely insulting.

Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the law. And, in fact, many homosexual men have done precisely that, without any legal prejudice at all.

Ditto with lesbian women. Many have married men and borne children. And while a fair number of such marriages in recent years have ended in divorce, there are many that have not.

So it is a flat lie to say that homosexuals are deprived of any civil right pertaining to marriage. To get those civil rights, all homosexuals have to do is find someone of the opposite sex willing to join them in marriage.

This article is clearly written by a bigoted, narrow-minded, arrogant columnist and if there is a game that support such views, yes, I'll be against it. Fervently.

And yes, I'm a gay man. But I assure that it will make no difference if such hated arguments were make towards Muslims, Hebrews, Christians, anything. I'm against ignorance per se. Period.

[Hammerite]

This guy worked on 'The Dig' and 'The Secret of Monkey Island' too.
It's a shame that someone so apparently talented can be such a shit-hawk - that said, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge a work by the views of its creator. For example, Lovecraft's work are beloved by many people (including some forumites), and he made no secret of his racism.

[AndreaDraco83]

In fact I said that I'd be against the game if the game itself support the author's views.

[Hammerite]

My post was directed more at the general issue of the boycott, rather than what you said.
Sorry 'bout any misunderstanding caused.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by Hammerite

My post was directed more at the general issue of the boycott, rather than what you said.
Sorry 'bout any misunderstanding caused.

No problem. On the contrary, thank you because it was an issue I'm glad I clarified too. My anger was directed to the man behind the column, not to the game, which may or may not endorse such views.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

In fact I said that I'd be against the game if the game itself support the author's views.

From what I've read Card is a very vocal anti-gay marriage advocate. He has done respective speaking gigs and quite generously donated money to conservative organizations that actively try to block equal rights legislation (primarily Mormon institutions).

His involvement with Shadow Complex is that it's based on his work, his intellectual property, so it's indirect in that way. He receives royalties from the sales. Whether he takes that money and gives some or all of it to the anti-gay organizations we don't know or we'll eventually find out. So it's a bit of a gamble to buy the game. You would be indirectly supporting a bigot, but you would also deny support to those talented people who worked hard on the game who are not like Card.

I've played the demo, it was really good, but I never did get into side scrollers. However, if I did I could definitely buy this.

But as a gay man I know what it's like to be treated as a second class citizen. We don't need any more people like Card pushing us down, we're hurting far too much already. There is no rational or logical evidence he can give that invalidates marriage between two people of the same sex. None. He can cite his Mormon faith all he wants. I am an atheist so I am exempt from that dogma. There are other GLBT Americans who are agnostic, Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, pagan, whatever, who are exempt from his beliefs. Why should he force his ways on us? He has no right under the Constitution.

I would support the team that made Shadow Complex, but as the title rightly puts it, there's nothing simple about this.

[kadji-kun]

Intrep took the words right out of my mouth. This is absolutely no different than celebrities on the media. They will voice there opinion, but what they say will not influence how I feel about the films they work on. So many great actors produce such loud and sick comments on today's society, but they also produce a lot of great films.

I WILL buy this game. I play it for the entertainment, not because I care so much about the people behind it (though I respect there effort in developing it).

[SoccerDude28]

That is a bummer because I heard that Shadow Complex is a very fine game. It sucks to know that supporting it is indirectly supporting a bigot.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Indeed it looks to be a fine game (though I based that on my experience with the demo and reviews).

Opinion: The Complex Question | Gamasutra

A discussion erupted on popular gaming forum NeoGAF late yesterday morning. A user named Coins posed the simple-sounding question, "Should we boycott Shadow Complex?"

The question sounds simple, but the issues behind it are complicated. It's salient because the game is derived from the fiction of Orson Scott Card, and Orson Scott Card is a political campaigner against gay rights.

Card sits on the board of directors of the National Organization for Marriage, an organization "founded in 2007 in response to the growing need for an organized opposition to same-sex marriage in state legislatures," according to its website. When you visit the site, a pop-up ad appears which contains a video defending ex-Miss California Carrie Prejean, who lost her crown amidst controversy about her opinions on the topic.

GayGamer offers up an interesting suggestion toward compromise in its thoughtful analysis of the issue: buy the game, and donate to a gay-positive charity to offset any profits that might funnel to Card. While Card established the universe, along with Chair, that the game resides in, he didn't work directly on the title. Dialogue was handled by Peter David, a comic book writer who GayGamer describes as "straight but extremely gay-friendly."

The boycott didn't work. The game is so good that many of us gamers chose to overlook the bigotry of the man whose ideas seeded it all. But as I stated, it is a complicated deal.

Still, what I myself walk away with is the satisfaction of knowing that people like Card are finally being called out on their hatred and ignorance and that it's very possible for an effective number of people to redirect the influence of bigots and haters today. And I'm happy this rising awareness is happening in the gaming world and industry, yet another strong sign of games and gaming as an emerging social and cultural force now.

[nomadsoul]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

But as a gay man I know what it's like to be treated as a second class citizen. We don't need any more people like Card pushing us down, we're hurting far too much already. There is no rational or logical evidence he can give that invalidates marriage between two people of the same sex. None. He can cite his Mormon faith all he wants. I am an atheist so I am exempt from that dogma. There are other GLBT Americans who are agnostic, Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, pagan, whatever, who are exempt from his beliefs. Why should he force his ways on us? He has no right under the Constitution.

My confusion comes from one thing , which is a fact that all gay community fighting for their rights are treating themselves equally on religion basis,as if gay-ism is religion worthy status, this is stupid since all religion you mentioned if you have time to read Holybooks, condemns sodomy in all forms. All past religions infact, even it has been labeled as carnal act against order of nature by pagans like vedas followers indians.


And where marraige comes form, where church comes from? Homos use some stuff from Holybooks and use for their own taste while ignoring other crucial orders.

I need to ask homos if what book they use to bind themselves together in church for all whole life, whats process of marraige, why church , why to adopt christian holy place where Bible totally condemns it?

And then you guys think that people with Faith and religion be it Muslim, Judaism or Christianity are wrong to take you wrong, its their own Book condemning your kind, thier faith, fundamentals and above all it is one of the common things in ALL religions.


Unless all people around the world become secular thinkers, this matter cant be solved, there will be mental hidden divide even gay community wins constitutional right, the people of book will always differentiate it.

Conclusion

So if Card has Books(consensus) to follow, he is not to be blamed.
If you guys can go against his religion being doing what Bible and other religions are telling you, he has right to atleast be vocal what is his religion/faith is.

Difference is as i said, They have religion with history and Books, gay community has no book, no prophet, no apostles, no religion.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

all religion you mentioned if you have time to read Holybooks, condemns sodomy in all forms. All past religions infact, even it has been labeled as carnal act against order of nature by pagans like vedas followers indians.

While I strongly believe that every religion is well constructed lie and more often than note a mean by which people are instructed - an instrumentum regni, or, as Marx put it, 'opium of the people' -, your statement is nonetheless wrong. And while it's true that the Abrahamic religions - which are renown for their contempt of the body and everything sensuous and material, since they were born as religions of the Roman slaves and so on - condemn the practice of sodomy, as you Bible-y put it, it's also true that many spiritualities around the world doesn't view homosexuality as a sin, but as a rightful expression of the human sexuality. As for the 'pagans' - ahem -, this detailed article chronicles very well the relationship between Hinduism and homosexuality.

And where marraige comes form, where church comes from? Homos use some stuff from Holybooks and use for their own taste while ignoring other crucial orders.

Alas, sorry but 'marriage' isn't a Christian concept, nor it is a religious idea at all. The concept of 'marriage' originates from the Hammurabi's Code, in 1790 BC. And believe me - I'm speaking strictly for myself, here - when I say that I want to be able to marry the man I love, I say that I want to marry him in front of the State, not in front of a God I don't believe in to begin with. And my claim doesn't need an 'holy book' to be supported, because it has the evidence of the science and the history to rely upon.

[...]t is one of the common things in ALL religions.

Again, you're wrong. Buddhism, Confucianism, the religion of the Greek antiquity, the religion of the Roman Empire, the Sumerian and Babylonian religion, the shamanic religion of the Native American, the Aztec mythology, the German Paganism, the Neopaganism Movement, the theosophical societies of the XIX Century, many branches of reformed Hebrews, many sub-sects of the Christian belief... Ahem, should I go ahead?

[Lucien21]

By all means boycott a game that is expressing negative views against any kind of minority (unless it is integral to the storyline).

However, unless you are demanding that all writers/developers/artists etc state on their work their views on abortion/gays/politics and religion etc before you purchase anything then boycott is pointless.

The game should be juded as a game and nothing else.

[RLacey]

Lucien's point is the one that resonates with me about this one. If the issue is a boycott on the grounds that someone involved in the production holds views contrary to one's own, then I would have thought that the vast, vast majority of titles would have to be ignored.

Yes, Card has been especially vocal about his views. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if each and every one of us has bought games made by developers amongst whom someone is against homosexual marriage, just as I suspect many individual developers are anti-abortion, pro-gun, militantly atheist or mysogonistic (to name but a handful of examples).

Clearly, this is a matter of personal conscience. I'm just curious as to why the line is being drawn here for many people, as supposed to at some other stage (and I'd be most grateful for further insights into this).

[AndreaDraco83]

Well, I can only speak for myself. I knew nothing about this man and his game before and - as a person who has just been introduced to his... ahem... thought - I feel offended by his statements, and insulted. Even ashamed for his ignorance.

Does this reflect upon his game? I don't know. Usually, I'm a swayed supporter of the Auteur theory, maybe because my education in the literary and cinematographic film shaped my mind in believing that every work of art - and I count games among them - is influenced by his author's view of the world, being him a poet pouring himself in a verse or a director choosing a certain shot to enhance a particular feeling. To me, art is this: a technique melt with a vision, the author's. And both these poles - style and meaning, so to speak - have the same value.

As such, I highly doubt that such an individual is able to concoct a game with some appeal for me, because if what I read is what he's about to 'pour' in a game, well, I won't drink that hodge-podge not even in a thousand years.

But... what if his game turns out to be really good and, first and foremost, it is not about the subject about this individual is so vocal about? In other words: what if his game has nothing to do with gay bashing? Will I buy it? Will I enjoy it?

Honestly, I don't know.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

My confusion comes from one thing , which is a fact that all gay community fighting for their rights are treating themselves equally on religion basis,as if gay-ism is religion worthy status, this is stupid since all religion you mentioned if you have time to read Holybooks, condemns sodomy in all forms. All past religions infact, even it has been labeled as carnal act against order of nature by pagans like vedas followers indians....

Difference is as i said, They have religion with history and Books, gay community has no book, no prophet, no apostles, no religion.

I'm not getting into a debate with you about this in the General Games thread. But I will ask you this: Give me absolute reasonable proof that homosexuality is condemned throughout the world's ruling religions based on their holy doctrines, give me historically, culturally, and sociologically factual basis , and I will give you the U.S. Constitution that demands separation of church and state, against which Card and his fellows are going with their attempt to influence legislation against us.

I am an American citizen and as such pay my taxes. Millions of us GLBTs pay state and federal taxes, which go to pay for national and state infrastructures (roads, highways, buildings), educational purposes (public school, libraries), and social programs (Medicare, Social Security, Veterans services).

Now are you telling me it's not within my right as an American to speak out against other Americans who use their religion to deny me and millions of other Americans equal rights, all the while taking advantage of our tax money? Especially when their religious beliefs are supposed to have nothing to do with passing laws against us? I'd love to hear your answer on this.

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

But... what if his game turns out to be really good and, first and foremost, it is not about the subject about this individual is so vocal about? In other words: what if his game has nothing to do with gay bashing? Will I buy it? Will I enjoy it?

Honestly, I don't know.

And that's part of my original point. It's that complicated. Personally I want to support the team that made this game and hope they'll continue to make more good games. But it just sickens me to know that Card may take the money he got from me and give it to organizations that support anti-gay legislation. Haven't I suffered enough from these people?

[nomadsoul]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

I'm not getting into a debate with you about this in the General Games thread. But I will ask you this: Give me absolute reasonable proof that homosexuality is condemned throughout the world's ruling religions based on their holy doctrines, give me historically, culturally, and sociologically factual basis , and I will give you the U.S. Constitution that demands separation of church and state, against which Card and his fellows are going with their attempt to influence legislation against us.

I am an American citizen and as such pay my taxes. Millions of us GLBTs pay state and federal taxes, which go to pay for national and state infrastructures (roads, highways, buildings), educational purposes (public school, libraries), and social programs (Medicare, Social Security, Veterans services).

Now are you telling me it's not within my right as an American to speak out against other Americans who use their religion to deny me and millions of other Americans equal rights, all the while taking advantage of our tax money? Especially when their religious beliefs are supposed to have nothing to do with passing laws against us? I'd love to hear your answer on this.

Well it would be long to make you understand , but lets simplify it a bit.

People with God and religion have objective criteria to follow, they are following, and some are plenty in number.Som religion people practicing , others have become too secular, to the extent of changing their own Book and interpretations, resulting in plenty of offshoots like reform jews, and ismaili muslims.
For them there is no such thing as kosher or haram.

On other hand we had people who have no God belief, only objective criteria is their own wits, mind, and intellect which they gather from restricted environment. For such people i have nothing to say because they can even go as far as to have sex with their mothers and sisters, reason being simple, they are themselves objecitve criteria and if they are convinced , as freedom lovers they will do so just like same sex relationships in the wake of self expression.


So debate is not possible, its 2 extremes with preoccupied ideology.


Anyways on your wikipedia as only main source for you guys and main absolute truth lol here


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality

Ever wondered where the word sodomy comes from?


I would suggest you to read all Books, there is plenty of verses condeming it, not just same sex, banning pork, adultery etc.
All religions, but with times freedom lovers distorted facts , making streamlined versions and making pork , sex rampant, so rampant that even Muslim countries and muslims dont give it second thought now.

But there are plenty of resources to check official real versions, you can always cross examine provided that you want to learn and adopt.

And hinduism is geographical definition, all pagan followers in india and srilanka are vedas followers.
veda is main book for pagans and if anything contradicts veda its rendered wrong, but as i said people dont even read their official versions, they make up religion with their own tastes. But you have official veda available, read it whole and you will know , what is banned and what is not.

Your right in free country its not wrong , since its free country its not Iran where gays are punished with death. So i dont know why you brought tax stuff up.

My point was , that if you have freedom, and your gay lobbys which are very strong in media , propganda and stuff do deliberate efforts to push your agenda in masses and in religion , then there would be people to oppose you with their agenda, their religion, their lobbys. They pay tax too, they pay stuff too, maybe they are paying for your intrusion since neither illegitimate children were there past as there are now, nor gays. Its a surge , it wont stop, Clinton made comment once, that how the nation will become bastard since majority are overthrowing family values and relationships, it was inevitable since freedom as consequences specially if becomes hivementality followed by strong financial and media groups, then its not in control. So they are not using their religion they are using values , which was there now changing , and for many reasons they are not welcoming it.

They have view that if you are left on lease, you will make every other guy gay.
And thats my philosphy whats next your mothers? Incest, since freedom lovers will reason it, there are plenty of books to read for rhetoric(a device and tool to thwart ambitions of millions).


Now coming to topic of hypocrsyisy , how about banning lionhead games




http://kotaku.com/5182524/microsoft-...er-gay-bashing


Also MS bans every MS ID tag with gay in it, people tried gaytony for next GTA and they were banned/deleted.

So why to pigeonhole Shadowcomplex, why not lionhead fag issue.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

On other hand we had people who have no God belief, only objective criteria is their own wits, mind, and intellect which they gather from restricted environment.

This is so ridiculous that it almost made me cry.

Have you ever heard of civilization and culture? I'm an atheist and my criteria, as you put them, are stemmed not only from my own perception of reality, but also from philosophy, literature, art, scientific thought and so on. Being an atheist doesn't mean that you are a crazy cell without direction or connection to the outside world.

This heavy reliance on Books (yes, with capitalized letter) is making me shiver. I foresee Dark Ages on people burnt at the stake just in name of a Word. I'm afraid of concepts with capitalized letters - they always stem from ignorance, and believing that one doesn't have to think for himself (which, I stress, doesn't mean that one can do whatever he wants), because some other has already bothered for him: "Here is the truth. Close your eyes, shut your mind down, and follow".

And what it I bring forth another book, Plato's Symposium, and out of the blue I want it to be considered a Book? Isn't it best that an intelligent person can read all the books out there and then construct his own personal beliefs based on these books, without resorting to Books? Wasn't this the common practice in Greek Antiquity, when the disciples were educated in free thinking, being a good citizen, respecting the other equals and seeking an inner balance?

As for the subject at hand, I'll repeat myself: every person that endorses bigoted, narrow-minded, hated arguments against any minority, sexuality, race and so, has my complete and absolute dislike. If said person issues a work of art, I'd be able to enjoy it if said movie/book/game has nothing to do with the aformentioned views, which is highly unlikely if you want my opinion. As for the Lionhead affair, if what the game designer is claiming, then yes: Lionhead should be legally persecuted and condemned for discrimination and mobbing.

[nomadsoul]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

This is so ridiculous that it almost made me cry.

Have you ever heard of civilization and culture? I'm an atheist and my criteria, as you put them, are stemmed not only from my own perception of reality, but also from philosophy, literature, art, scientific thought and so on. Being an atheist doesn't mean that you are a crazy cell without direction or connection to the outside world.

Yes i have heard of manycivilizations that didn't believe in God and vanished , they didnot listened to Prophets and tasted horrific death. And yes there is one Prophet in all 3 major religions , with different names but same story, whose race/civilization was punished for same sin you do. Your kind are heretics according to Books and ofcourse as i said anything beyond your own personal taste will be nullified by you, its natural, which makes my point even more integrated.

Anything that put limits to human nature is automatically wrong, because humans want to be free to any extent.

[AndreaDraco83]

Originally Posted by nomadsoul

And yes there is one Prophet in all 3 major religions , with different names but same story, whose race/civilization was punished for same sin you do.

I tried to be polite, but given the tone of this sentence, I'm going to step away from the conversation. By explicitly calling homosexuality a 'sin', you cleared your point beyound any possible doubts. And I do not like to be sanctimoniously judged.