[sethsez]

Originally Posted by Christian IV

If the game developers would create better and more challenging games with more content, instead of cookie cutter mutant monster shooters and sicko crime based things, maybe the consumers would have a more creative and productive avenue for their energies.

Come on. The people pirating games are generally interested in those in the first place. That's like saying there would be less piracy if all music was like Bach and Ravel... perhaps, but only because you've alienated the typical piracy groups in the first place.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Now replace "DRM method" with "return policy" and "piracy" with "scams"... I don't know, seems like a double standard to me.

Not really. A store's return policy isn't potentially harmful to the customer, it's generally spelled out on the recipt (games with DRM don't typically mention it on anything you can see before installation), and policy can be overturned in special circumstances. None of this applies to DRM at all.

Why don't they buy European version instead? Or is it only pirates that know how to search the web?

Because most customers who buy games at EB or Wal-Mart don't check every game online first to see what kind of DRM they have with some poorly updated, frequenly incorrect list.

The copy protection isn't responsible for publishers' stupidity and lack of ability to look at the wider picture.

The copy protection is only half the picture. How it's used is just as important, and frankly the publishers who make these kind of decisions seem like the type of people who put the condom on backwards.

I'll take your word for it, but I find it very hard to believe. I'm not familiar with piracy scene for sure, but I don't think communication and web skills are that well developed, even in today's world. I mean, by that logic, why do abandonware sites add games that are already hosted by dozens of others? I suppose everyone that was seeking for free copy of a particular game, downloaded it years ago?

The "abandonware" scene and the people who pirate new games are really pretty different groups. And the reason for the phenomenon you mentioned is pretty simple: there are thousands upon thousands of old games, all available at once. Piracy deals with a few releases a week, and is thus far more organized. And most "abandonware" sites try to maintain some degree of fairness with the publishers (they'll check to see if the games are still being sold or supported in some respect before putting them up), while pirates couldn't care less for obvious reasons.

[jjacob]

Piracy can't be rooted out, as RELOADED showed; there was a hard crackdown on their members (who are now serving time) but somehow they managed to keep up with their releases (they're still the biggest group) AND crack the newest Starforce (3.-something) So SF doesn't make games impossible to copy, DRMs like Steam don't (there's thousands of up-to-date cracked CS:S servers); what will?

(Just a thought I had, only read a few posts in here sporadically).

[sethsez]

The issue is that people still treat digital media as if it was the same as physical objects, but that's not how it works. It's so easily copied and so easily distributed no matter what kind of DRM you include that most current measures are like trying to cram everything back into Pandora's box and hoping it'll all go back to the way things used to be.

It ain't gonna happen.

The solution is not to punish pirates. There are just too many, and it's so easy for them, that you'll never get enough to make up for all the ones you'll miss. The solution is to make them want to purchase your product rather than copying it. Give people something that they can't easily get in a single large torrent file.

The people crying loudest about piracy right now (in software, anyway) are PC game makers. But you know what? They've been making their products less and less enticing to buy! I remember when I was pissed that they stopped including beefy manuals, but now I'm seeing games that are shipping in paper sleeves. I've seen games that tell me to download the manual from their website. And on top of this, I have to deal with the product installing things on my computer that constantly run in the background without my knowledge?

So publishers, tell me this: what in the world would I gain from buying your product instead of pirating it, aside from the warm fuzzies that come from knowing I'm not doing anything illegal? You're doing so much to stop the pirates that you've completely forgotten about the people who are supporting you! Why is stopping pirates vastly more important than pleasing customers who've already given you their money?

The truth of the matter is that with PC game publishing as it is right now, pirates are getting a better product than legitimate buyers. They get all the content (since every possible physical inclusion has been systematically cut out of the equation), and less hassles with the software. The current system is rewarding the pirates. And that sure as hell isn't going to reduce their numbers.

[jjacob]

Ubisoft gets a class-action lawsuit on its ass because of SF;
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=1559

Ubisoft sued for using StarForce, followed by the discovery that pro-StarForce "reviews" were actually viral marketing

Copy protection has been more frustrating for legitimate users than it is for those who copy or download games. Most savvy computer users know that full games are available from a variety of sources, and underground groups that release them. Most of the time, a crack and valid CD is also supplied with the release, rendering the publisher's copy protection scheme useless.

In its latest battles with end users, StarForce, famous for creating copy protection schemes that violated user privacy rights as well as causing notable system problems, has created a website called OnlineSecurity ON. A StarForce employee implies that OnlineSecurity ON is an independent security website (his quote has since been modified) which reviews and writes about software security. Interestingly, he points to an article called " The Truth about StarForce Drivers," which claims:

It is obvious that all the rumors around StarForce hazards are spread by international piracy groups. Our recent contest has just proven that StarForce does not damage optical drives.

Of course, one only needs to do a reverse host look up to show that is StarForce and OnlineSecurity-On.com is one and the same:
[kristopher@arthur]$ nslookup star-force.com
Name: star-force.com
Address: 195.90.131.214

[kristopher@arthur]$ nslookup onlinesecurity-on.com
Name: onlinesecurity-on.com
Address: 195.90.131.214 In light of this, Ubisoft is currently being sued for the use of StarForce protection in its games. A class action lawsuit, filed by Christopher Spence, indicates that StarForce drivers compromise the security of a computer system. Interestingly, the class action does not go after StarForce. The file can be viewed here (PDF).

Wow, to think Starforce owns online-security on too and they deny it, god what evil bastards (I actually believed them when they said their tool would remove starforce ).

[sethsez]

But think of the companies!!!

[jjacob]

'Tim Robbins'; "Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance Team AmericaStarforce, and then Team AmericaStarforce goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money." (Team America, duh )

[portabello]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I'll take your word for it, but I find it very hard to believe. I'm not familiar with piracy scene for sure, but I don't think communication and web skills are that well developed, even in today's world. I mean, by that logic, why do abandonware sites add games that are already hosted by dozens of others? I suppose everyone that was seeking for free copy of a particular game, downloaded it years ago?

Pirated software is usually released via p2p networks, IRC, and torrent sites. Abandonware is usually released as a direct download from a website. There is also a completely different mentality. Pirate groups crack software for the shear joy of breaking through the protection and disseminating the it quickly. Abandonware sites are generally more about the games themselves.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by jjacob

Wow, to think Starforce owns online-security on too and they deny it, god what evil bastards (I actually believed them when they said their tool would remove starforce ).

The OnlineSecurity article says "our contest", "we do our best", "our forum" when referring to StarForce. You'd have to be pretty slow on the uptake to have to resort to a reverse host look up to find out the truth.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

The OnlineSecurity article says "our contest", "we do our best", "our forum" when referring to StarForce. You'd have to be pretty slow on the uptake to have to resort to a reverse host look up to find out the truth.

Yeah but I hardly ever really examine a website such as that I just download the tool if it looks genuine enough (and OnlineSecurity-On atleast sounds and looks authentic) and get on with my other 34 firefox tabs

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by jjacob

Yeah but I hardly ever really examine a website such as that I just download the tool if it looks genuine enough (and OnlineSecurity-On atleast sounds and looks authentic) and get on with my other 34 firefox tabs

Oh, I didn't mean you, but rather the author of that DailyTech article, who even had quoted a revealing excerpt.

[Ninth]

My version of Keepsake has Starforce.

My question is, who's going to crack Keepsake? Who cares enough about this kind of games to take the time to crack it, or even to download it?

We do, but we'll buy it, because we care about the genre, or we won't, because we're not interested in this particular game.

I really don't see what losses this guys (Keepsake publishers in France, and very) could possibly have suffered from piracy, but I do see what they could suffer from having Starforce as a copy protection, namely people not buying it out of principles. Hell, I know I wouldn't have bought it if I had known (and of course, it prevented the game from running without tweaking, so I would have been right). If anything, I would have downloaded a cracked version out of spite. Also, the french forum for the game is filled to the brim with complaints about Starforce. Way to lose customers...

So in cases like Keepsake, I can't for the life of me understand why they would use this stupid protection. Not that I'm fond of copy protection to begin with, as I'm pretty sure that it doesn't change a thing, except for the worst, but in niche genre that's just more than I can handle.

[Legolas813]

Originally Posted by Ninth

My question is, who's going to crack Keepsake? Who cares enough about this kind of games to take the time to crack it, or even to download it?

We do, but we'll buy it, because we care about the genre, or we won't, because we're not interested in this particular game.

I totally agree. Who in their right mind would even care enough to download or crack an adventure game? It's a niche market; no one wants the games. Protecting them like they are AAA titles, especially using StarForce, is just crazy. You are losing your already small target group of buyers.

[sethsez]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I would have downloaded a cracked version out of spite.

I'll admit to something here: I've downloaded cracked games before. Not often, but it's happened.

However, they've been games that I already purchased knowing they had DRM.

I don't want to rip off the people who spent time and money making the game (which is why I still buy it), but on the other hand, I'll be damned if I'm going to use a crippled version of it when there's a version out there that'll suit my needs and won't make me jump through hoops to install and use, and won't install invisible malware on my computer. It's the same reason I know people who'll buy an album and then download it off a torrent site because the album has malware on it that'll screw up their computer (Sony got in trouble for this a little while ago) and won't play in car CD players.

I know most people who download cracked versions of games don't buy the software anyway, but I'm willing to bet a lot of them do download cracked software because DRM has gotten so out of control they're taking less chances with a pirated version than they are with the real thing. And when you're safer downloading pirated software off a site full of porn ads than you are buying the same software at Best Buy, there's a serious problem.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by Ninth

My version of Keepsake has Starforce.

My question is, who's going to crack Keepsake? Who cares enough about this kind of games to take the time to crack it, or even to download it?

We do, but we'll buy it, because we care about the genre, or we won't, because we're not interested in this particular game.

I really don't see what losses this guys (Keepsake publishers in France, and very) could possibly have suffered from piracy, but I do see what they could suffer from having Starforce as a copy protection, namely people not buying it out of principles. Hell, I know I wouldn't have bought it if I had known (and of course, it prevented the game from running without tweaking, so I would have been right). If anything, I would have downloaded a cracked version out of spite. Also, the french forum for the game is filled to the brim with complaints about Starforce. Way to lose customers...

So in cases like Keepsake, I can't for the life of me understand why they would use this stupid protection. Not that I'm fond of copy protection to begin with, as I'm pretty sure that it doesn't change a thing, except for the worst, but in niche genre that's just more than I can handle.

I totally agree 100%, however, don't underestimate a pirate's hunger for adventure games;

^ The comments section of a private BT tracker, all responding to the RELOADED release of (drumrolls...) ANKH.

In comparison, a popular Football(soccer) Manager game, released on thesame day on thesame site only got 4 comments

I've decided to download the cracked (SF free) version of Dreamfall when it comes out, after buying a legal copy ofcourse, that way, I can have my cake and eat it too Ofcourse only if the Euro publisher decides to use SF, but all current signs are pointing to yes, sadly..

[[toj.cc]Phantom]

Originally Posted by LenaJ

Just a short question: What is Starforce that´s mentioned in the Keepsake thread? It also seems to be Starforce in Still life (according to Panthera) which I´m about to install.

Basically its the Devil...

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by jjacob

I totally agree 100%, however, don't underestimate a pirate's hunger for adventure games;

Touche. Well, at least these guys are spreading the love.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Touche. Well, at least these guys are spreading the love.

From the-glass-is-half-full's perspective, yeah I guess a lot of pirates grew up with adventure games too. Actually, now that I think about it, I've seen comments like "If you like this game, please buy it" and "Don't download, buy this game!" etc. a couple of times on 'pirate' sites too, so I guess atleast some of them are concious that adventure games are rarities these days

[jjacob]

Ubisoft dropping Starforce; http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=1760

When it rains, it pours at StarForce

Several websites are reporting that Ubisoft employees have confirmed StarForce DRM will not show up in upcoming Ubisoft titles. Galaad from CelestialHeavens.com (a Heroes of Might and Magic Fansite) claims Ubisoft and Nival are dropping StarForce DRM completely.

The original forum thread (English) contains a Ubisoft employee claiming "We have decided that the anti-copy protection used on the future Ubisoft games won't be the StarForce software" (translated French to English). There was no mention of what DRM would replace StarForce, though comments from other employees among the Ubi forums indicate that no future Ubisoft titles will be DRM-free.

StarForce, the DRM software for several high profile PC games, has been in the news a few times over the last several months. Three months ago, the company drew some attention for a bet made with its users. Comments made by some of the StarForce employees later helped skyrocket the sales of a competing product, and then to round things off Ubisoft sued StarForce a few weeks ago anyway.

edit: removed links

[Legolas813]

^ The last sentence there is wrong. Ubisoft is being sued because of using StarForce. They are not suing StarForce.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Legolas813

^ The last sentence there is wrong. Ubisoft is being sued because of using StarForce. They are not suing StarForce.

Yeah, and there is nothing about "skyrocketing" anybody's sales in that other link, either. Jjacob, I really would stop quoting dailytech news if I were you. Apparently, they find it difficult to understand even their own articles...