[Jelena]

Just a short question: What is Starforce that´s mentioned in the Keepsake thread? It also seems to be Starforce in Still life (according to Panthera) which I´m about to install.

[Rowne]

I'm probably setting myself up to be shot at and rabidly by the defensive here but ...

It's just a form of game protection. It's similar to SecuROM, SafeDisk and others but the notion where it can be problematic is caused by the fact that the protection sets itself up as a driver on the machine in question, this can (but does not frequently) cause one or more of these five problems.

I. General system slowdown.
II. Setting the IDE channels of the computer into PIO mode (which is unhealthy for DVD/CD drives and HDDs alike).
III. Incompatability with other drivers (this can result in I).
IV. The protection silently resets the PC (without the chance to save) if it feels the user is doing anything "suspicious".
V. It can have chafing issues with Daemon Tools and other CD-mount emulators for ISOs which can result in IV.

I started looking into Starforce because I felt the Ankh protection was a bit over-restrictive, in hindsight (and as I said in that very thread), this was a bit of an overreaction because as it turns out, Ankh's download-based Starforce protection is actually much more benign than the CD version.

Now to most people, including yourself, there is absolutely no reason to fear Starforce. Nothing much has been proven about it. So install your game without worry. I will offer a cautionary warning, however ...

Primarily: Check your IDE channel status after rebooting the computer to ensure that the channels have not been locked into PIO mode.

Secondarily: If your computer at any time demonstrates slowness that it hadn't before installing the game or for some mysterious reason performs a reset, then perhaps you should uninstall Starforce.

If the primary isn't the case after an install and you don't once see the secondary then you're in the safe-zone and you have absolutely nothing to worry about with Starforce. PC configurations are as disperate as nebulae in the cosmos and one never knows the exact PC configuration that will disagree with Starforce. It was a bit of a foolhardy decision for them to make it a device driver which invites problems for people who use exotic hardware but at the same time, it's not fatal and should not be feared to be.

I offer this as an unbiased statement and a warning that others will be able to point to. Starforce is just a form of protection like any other and if you see none of the warning signs mentioned above then you're safe with it and you should go on gaming as you always have. If you do see any problems then fret not, send me a PM and I shall tell you how to remove it. I honestly don't think you should consider doing that though unless you do see problems.

Since any program you install on your PC could be problematic, it's silly to assume that it actually will be problematic. It's much like hardware. Two people can buy the same graphics card, it'll work fine for one person but badly for the other. It really is down to personal experience.

There's nothing more to say really. Just follow this advice and you'll be fine.

[ Edit: To add technical information. ]

For those that wish to check their IDE chanel status, do the following.

Click Start > Right-click My Computer > Click Properties > Click the Hardware tab > Click Device Manager > Open the View dropdown and select Show Hidden > Click IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers > Right-Click Primary IDE Channel > Click Properties > Click Advanced Settings tab > If you don't see PIO, cancel out, no worries on the primary > Do the same for the Secondary Channel.

[Panthera]

EDIT: Well Rowne posted before me, but my post still has some informational walue. The site I link to have also a suggestion about how to remove the program..

Starforce is a DRM, witch is rumoured to cause problems with some of the computers it's installed on. One of the reasons for why ppl. have a problem with starforce is that it runs constantly, also when the game's not running, and that it doesn't dissapear when you uninstall the game.

You can read more about why some ppl. don't like Starforce here.
of course, these sites will never have a completely objective view of things, so wheter or not you should believe them, is up to you..

[Rowne]

Yeah ...

I didn't post how to remove it because I'm really not trying to be biased or incite anything. That's not my intent. I'm not for or against Starforce, it's protection and a sign of the times, it's the way companies are. If one doesn't like it then one simply doesn't buy the software that uses it, for one as logical as myself it's as simple as that so I'm not going to act biased in any direction. I didn't want to provide a way to remove it so easily because that might've made it look like I was for seeing Starforce removed from folks systems. That's not the case.

[Jelena]

Thanks Rowne and Panthera for your help!
As you probably know by now I don´t know much about computers so Rowne I´ll PM you if I get trouble and I´ll gladly take all the help you can offer.







EDIT: 100 posts!! Yaay! I think I must celebrate!

[Rowne]

I suggest strongarming one of the Indie developers into including you in one of their games! ... well, not really but it would be amusing to see some of the regulars around here appearing in some of the Underground games.

[Panthera]

Originally Posted by Rowne

Yeah ...

I didn't post how to remove it because I'm really not trying to be biased or incite anything. That's not my intent. I'm not for or against Starforce, it's protection and a sign of the times, it's the way companies are. If one doesn't like it then one simply doesn't buy the software that uses it, for one as logical as myself it's as simple as that so I'm not going to act biased in any direction. I didn't want to provide a way to remove it so easily because that might've made it look like I was for seeing Starforce removed from folks systems. That's not the case.

I wasn't really trying to "post the removal tool because you were to afraid to" or anything like that, I just added the remark since you mentioned it, and a removal suggestion is posted on the site.. just a little "well, since you mentioned it, the site I linked to has a removal tool" kinda sentence..

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by Rowne

I suggest strongarming one of the Indie developers into including you in one of their games! ... well, not really but it would be amusing to see some of the regulars around here appearing in some of the Underground games.

Sorry Rowne, I actually don´t understand what you meant there.
I´m not upset, my english comprehension just doesn´t include what you wrote there.
Oh, tänk om du kunde Svenska. Vad lätt det skulle vara då!

Oh, If you spoke Swedish, how easy this would be.

[Panthera]

Vel, da kunne jo jeg begynne å prate Norsk også.. For et interessant flerspråklig forum vi hadde fått da.. *

* Well, so could I start to talk Norwegian... What an interesting, multilanguage forum we'd get then..


Edit: I wasn't making fun of you, in case you might think so.. just thought I would add that, since my post could be read wrongly..

[sethsez]

Originally Posted by Rowne

Starforce is just a form of protection like any other

Eh... it's much, much more invasive than most. It reminds me more of Sony's DRM software that got them in trouble a few months back than of your standard, run of the mill copy protection software. This in and of itself is bad enough, but...

Originally Posted by Rowne

If one doesn't like it then one simply doesn't buy the software that uses it

...software that uses Starforce doesn't actually advertise that it uses Starforce. It's simply installed without telling the user, and is never acknowledged on the box or in the manual of any game that uses it. If you know your system doesn't play well with Starforce and you actively try to avoid it, you still have no way of knowing if that game you just bought uses it or not. Also, for extra fun, it's included in demos for games that use Starforce as well. Have you ever downloaded a Trackmania demo? You've got Starforce, because the full versions use it as well.

The reality of Starforce is that it probably won't affect your system. However, on the off chance that it does, it'll hit things hard, potentially ruining your CD/DVD drive in addition to the standard havok you'd expect from an extremely invasive piece of software like this.

[Veovis]

The choice of copy protection is often made by the publisher, and the only version of Still Life I know has Starforce is the North American one published by The Adventure Company. The Nordic release may also have it since I think the publisher is PAN Vision who uses SF for several of their other games. I bought my copy from the UK and haven't installed it yet so I don't know whether or not it has SF.

[Rowne]

The UK version of Still Life has Starforce too, I should know. I had to reboot my computer after installing it and I was greeted with the butt-ugly Starforce startup every time I initialized the game. Then again, it might just've been that somehow Play.com was distributing the US version but I doubt that ... not impossible but I doubt it.

Anyway, a couple of points to be made about Starforce.

I. "Permanent damage seems to be a myth." This is just my opinion. I've done a lot of reading around sites like r-force.org and places complaining about Starforce, it seems that when the users were smart enough to actually fully remove Starforce (which even a format didn't do in some cases because they were using forms of system restore), the hardware issues evaporated. I can't say this for sure but it sure as hell seems like the case, as close as dammit if you ask me. *Shrug.*

II. "Starforce is undetectable." Not so! Microsoft Defender (which I shall link to at the bottom of this post) actually detects Starforce and asks you whether you want to install it. Of course, if you say no then the game that relies on it won't work but at least then you know and you can return it to the store if you like.

I know there's a lot of evil-bad about Starforce. I know it's invasive and yes, I know it can spread like a worm across a network. I know it can also do the five things I mentioned above but the thing is, I don't think that rioting against it, regardless of how damaging it might be, is going to get us anywhere. People will try it, people will decide for themselves and if people find it's harmful to them then said people won't buy games that use Starforce (or at the very least will buy them and then return them, thank you Microsoft).

This will eventually cut into producer profits and they'll learn the error of their ways. Some producers already have learned this and they've been patching out Starforce from their games, either that or games that were planned to have Starforce in them were actually released without them. Even Ubi, one of Starforce's most ardent supporters, has released games without Starforce when they were ardent about including it (due to the community backlash on their forums).

So there you go. The best thing to do really is to let it run its course and simply to be smart and ethical about it.

Anyway, as promised ...

Microsoft Defender: http://www.microsoft.com/athome/secu...e/default.mspx

(Just make sure that when you setup MSD, you don't leave it on automatic settings, make absolutely sure you tell it to ask you before it performs any cleanings, actions or whatever else.)

[ Edit: Oh and yes, as you can see, I've done a hell of a lot of research. When something concerns me, I'm not a slouch and I'll gather all the information I can on said source and I'll freely redistribute that, too. ]

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Rowne

I know there's a lot of evil-bad about Starforce. I know it's invasive and yes, I know it can spread like a worm across a network. I know it can also do the five things I mentioned above but the thing is, I don't think that rioting against it, regardless of how damaging it might be, is going to get us anywhere. People will try it, people will decide for themselves and if people find it's harmful to them then said people won't buy games that use Starforce (or at the very least will buy them and then return them, thank you Microsoft).

This will eventually cut into producer profits and they'll learn the error of their ways. Some producers already have learned this and they've been patching out Starforce from their games, either that or games that were planned to have Starforce in them were actually released without them. Even Ubi, one of Starforce's most ardent supporters, has released games without Starforce when they were ardent about including it (due to the community backlash on their forums).

Fully agreed, except for the bolded part. You yourself have contradicted that statement in the second quoted paragraph.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by Rowne

People will try it, people will decide for themselves and if people find it's harmful to them then said people won't buy games that use Starforce (or at the very least will buy them and then return them, thank you Microsoft).

Er, I don't know about where you set up kip, but here in the US, at least, you generally can't return an opened game for cash or credit, only for another copy of the same game. So if you buy a game you didn't want or can't run, you're pretty much stuck with it and out the money unless you feel like taking the effort to whine and scream at a manager until they relent. (Which I *don't* recommend.)

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Rowne

I. General system slowdown.
II. Setting the IDE channels of the computer into PIO mode (which is unhealthy for DVD/CD drives and HDDs alike).
III. Incompatability with other drivers (this can result in I).
IV. The protection silently resets the PC (without the chance to save) if it feels the user is doing anything "suspicious".
V. It can have chafing issues with Daemon Tools and other CD-mount emulators for ISOs which can result in IV.

VI. Distributes itself across paritions and networks
VII. Starforce employees accuse people of working for organised crime or of being a pirate if you raise any issues with them. They call you a lier, threaten contacting the FBI, and threaten you with lawsuits.
VIII. Starforce stops you from backing up the games you bought, requires you to insert a disc to play.
IX. It doesn't uninstall when you uninstall the game it came with.
X. It's always running, although Starforce says that their DRM only runs when the game is running.
XI. It neglects to tell you when you're installing it.
XII. Grants Ring 0 access, which is a security risk.

I advise people don't install any games with Starforce, there aren't any must have games with it. If not for their attitude and what DRM means to consumers, for how badly designed it is, and fear of what it could do to your PC.

[the gnome]

To be rather brief: Starforce is a very bad thing. More info here (a very interesting link, if I may say so).

[RLacey]

Do a search in the General forum for Starforce if you want a long thread with my opinion hidden in it somewhere. I'm sick of stating my views .

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

Er, I don't know about where you set up kip, but here in the US, at least, you generally can't return an opened game for cash or credit, only for another copy of the same game.

Not even if a game's description (for example, system specs) turned out to be false?

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by Aj_

VI. Distributes itself across paritions and networks
VII. Starforce employees accuse people of working for organised crime or of being a pirate if you raise any issues with them. They call you a lier, threaten contacting the FBI, and threaten you with lawsuits.
VIII. Starforce stops you from backing up the games you bought, requires you to insert a disc to play.
IX. It doesn't uninstall when you uninstall the game it came with.
X. It's always running, although Starforce says that their DRM only runs when the game is running.
XI. It neglects to tell you when you're installing it.
XII. Grants Ring 0 access, which is a security risk.

XIII. It killed my Pioneer DVD writer! YOU BASTARDS!

Let's just say I'll never get a SF game again; SecuROM or SD are fine by me, though. I usually make a backup copy anyway when I buy a game, to keep the DVD/CD disc mint and without scratches, but SF games don't allow this (the backup won't work), so when it's a game you play frequently (like a multiplayer game) you HAVE to use the original disc, which gets damaged easily by the frequent taking out/putting it back in the drive. Also many countries allow you to make backup copies of games, but SF just shits all over that right..

Anyway there's another thread about this (although I hope it stays dead and burried), if you enjoy long discussions about 'trivial' things such as this feel free to take a peak

[CoyoteAG]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

Er, I don't know about where you set up kip, but here in the US, at least, you generally can't return an opened game for cash or credit, only for another copy of the same game. So if you buy a game you didn't want or can't run, you're pretty much stuck with it and out the money unless you feel like taking the effort to whine and scream at a manager until they relent. (Which I *don't* recommend.)

Peace & Luv, Liz

Or you could return the opened game for another copy of the same game and then go back a few days later and return the unopened game for store credit or refund! Not that I've ever done anything like that before.