[Aj_]

It seems Boing Boing have been threatened with legal action by Starforce.

Yesterday, I posted about StarForce, a harmful technology used by game companies to restrict their customers' freedom. StarForce attempts to stop game customers from copying their property, but it has the side-effects of destabilizing and crashing the computers on which it is installed.

Someone identifying himself as "Dennis Zhidkov, PR-manager, StarForce Inc." contacted me this morning and threatened to sue me, and told me that he had contacted the FBI to complain about my "harassment."

There's quite a few people here that have had things to say about Starforce in the past, there's enough Adventure games with it.

This type of malicious legal scare mongering is becoming widespread on the internet. To the point that even me, a nobody, gets threatened with it just for posting opinion on a forum. People are paying the RIAA because of the way the system is stacked against them although they're innocent. Companies like Infinium Labs threaten sites which post criticisms. A lot of sites don't have the will or money to seek out legal advice, this tactic seems to work directly against free speech. Corporations seem to hold far more rights than the individual.

Ubisoft posts Starforce has stopped Chaos Theory from being cracked, and the only people that are angry about Starforce are the crackers. On both accounts this is absolutely false, and the sad thing is people buy this crap they're being fed.

Generally I don't think boycotting works, is a good idea, but it's becoming more and more appealing as I see PC gaming ruined and stripped of its advantages by these idiot suits.

[RLacey]

While I agree that copy protection systems are, in the end, only really harming the legitimate buyer I also recognise that the developers and publishers have few options left.

I happen to be strongly against the idea of software piracy, and I just think it's a shame that people increasingly aren't prepared to pay for their entertainment. If only that were so none of these systems would ever be necessary.

To return directly to StarForce, though, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was running their company. I happen to fall into the camp that genuinely believes that StarForce gets far more negative publicity than it deserves (note that I am not saying that it doesn't have any problems, merely that people have entirely overreacted to them)...

[SoccerDude28]

The latest games from ubisoft(King Kong, Prince of Persia) ask you nicely if you would like to uninstall the protection when you uninstall their games, so it's really not as bad as it was when they kept it lurking around.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by RLacey

While I agree that copy protection systems are, in the end, only really harming the legitimate buyer I also recognise that the developers and publishers have few options left.

I happen to be strongly against the idea of software piracy, and I just think it's a shame that people increasingly aren't prepared to pay for their entertainment. If only that were so none of these systems would ever be necessary.

I used to (and still do sometimes) download certain software or games to check out whether it was worth buying, if so, I bought it. That's just their fault for not releasing a demo/evaluation version Adventure games especially are in enough trouble as it is, they certainly don't need piracy to add to that. However I don't entirely agree with your statement that developers/publishers have few options left. Activation keys seem to work for a lot of games (mostly multiplayer ofcourse). Perhaps an offline key system might work just as well for single player games (for those without an internet connection), where you call a free phonenumber, enter your registration key and get an activation key back. The company's database would check out if it was indeed a valid number and not one generated by a key generator. Systems like these work without installing an obscure piece of anti-piracy software.

To return directly to StarForce, though, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was running their company. I happen to fall into the camp that genuinely believes that StarForce gets far more negative publicity than it deserves (note that I am not saying that it doesn't have any problems, merely that people have entirely overreacted to them)...

I'd be pretty angry if my system got all messed up by such a piece of software, and I'd be overreacting my way all over their e-mail servers Starforce can claim what they want, and they have (supposedly organising a free trip to Russia for those claiming their computer was messed up by SF), but the fact remains Starforce does slow down certain systems, sometimes messing up Windows entirely.

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

The latest games from ubisoft(King Kong, Prince of Persia) ask you nicely if you would like to uninstall the protection when you uninstall their games, so it's really not as bad as it was when they kept it lurking around.

That's nice ok, alot somewhat slightly better than before. Btw here's a removal tool just in case

[Crunchy in milk]

They just need to work out how to enforce anti theft without removing a customers legal rights.

I read on another messageboard about a guy who edits the EULA text file that comes with software before pressing accept. Removing the onerous parts that take away legal rights. It struck me as a rather clever turnabout of those rediculous EULA click screens.

[Jeysie]

Various thoughts from an anti-DRM indie developer.

Anyhoo. I don't have any major problems with *non*-software-based CP. But even setting aside questions about "fair-use" and whatnot, why on earth would you want to let CP software that could stop *tech-saavy* folks from cracking the base program anywhere near your system?

Just stop and think about it for a while. Presumably these folks have a good grip on the inner workings of software stuff, so you'd think that anything that prevented *their* systems from working around the CP would have to be doing some wacko stuff to *your* system, wouldn't it?

Peace & Luv, Liz

[SakSquash]

[nikoniko]

Originally Posted by Aj_

It seems Boing Boing have been threatened with legal action by Starforce.

For crying out loud, people should be able to express an opinion without fear of getting sued or arrested. Reminds me of the recent crap legislation that got passed in the US.

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

Aye, that Roger be jolly.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by RLacey

While I agree that copy protection systems are, in the end, only really harming the legitimate buyer I also recognise that the developers and publishers have few options left.

I happen to be strongly against the idea of software piracy, and I just think it's a shame that people increasingly aren't prepared to pay for their entertainment. If only that were so none of these systems would ever be necessary.

To return directly to StarForce, though, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was running their company. I happen to fall into the camp that genuinely believes that StarForce gets far more negative publicity than it deserves (note that I am not saying that it doesn't have any problems, merely that people have entirely overreacted to them)...

I really don't see how something that doesn't work can be applied to "publishers have few options left", "these systems would ever be necessary".

Lets take this from the Ubisoft line, say it does work, it harms the legitimate customer. Publishers are completely illogical with their maths, money isn't "lost" to piracy, hardly anyone would say they pirate games they would have bought. It's about control, the games that made Missing say they had a big piracy problem in Poland, where they don't sell the game. Sony claims they lose millions and millions in South America, where they don't sell the Playstation.

In the end it's about control of content, and publishers want control, and they are completely blind of the benefit.

As someone who understands tech, Starforce is a bad idea, it is made in such a way that causes problems, not always critical problems, but it will definitely have an affect on your machine. Adding unneccesary things like this to a machine is hated in general, you're bloating a system, and creating a chance for problems. People are harsh on the problems that do occur because it's unwanted, unneeded, and badly designed.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by Aj_

money isn't "lost" to piracy, hardly anyone would say they pirate games they would have bought.

This may be true, but it's no justification for piracy. There are lots of movies I have no intention of seeing, but I don't feel the need to go and download them off the internet.

In the end it's about control of content, and publishers want control, and they are completely blind of the benefit.

I don't actually see the argument against publishers having control of their creative property, but from a copy protection standpoint I feel the need to reiterate that I don't think they actually do much good (I won't say any because they do act as a deterrent when it comes to the issue of casually copying discs for friends).

As someone who understands tech, Starforce is a bad idea, it is made in such a way that causes problems, not always critical problems, but it will definitely have an affect on your machine. Adding unneccesary things like this to a machine is hated in general, you're bloating a system, and creating a chance for problems. People are harsh on the problems that do occur because it's unwanted, unneeded, and badly designed.

As someone who also understands tech (though almost certainly not to the same extent as you unless you're spouting hyperbole), I have never suggested that StarForce is a well-designed piece of software. I've never stated that there are no problems with it, just as I've never suggested that those who complain about genuinely have no grievances. The point I have been trying to make is that the problems caused by the software, I believe, are more minor than the huge amounts of outrage that have appeared on the internet would suggest. It's like all these things; someone files a complaint and everyone else leaps on the bandwagon. It amazes me that people don't spend their lives making complaints about installshield and such programs - after all, they place a whole load of redundant junk in the registry and never delete themselves properly.

The fact of the matter is, though, that the publishers are entitled to use StarForce, and that by installing the game you're agreeing to them doing so. Does that make it good? No. Does that mean that people shouldn't ever say anything against StarForce? No.

But does that mean that people should wildly overreact? No.

Personally, I wish that people would stop using StarForce, but predominantly because of the hassle it generates. If a company I owned was being persistently attacked by people, though - including a large group of individuals who haven't experienced problems and who are simply following the flock - I'd be looking at legal recourse myself.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by RLacey

This may be true, but it's no justification for piracy. There are lots of movies I have no intention of seeing, but I don't feel the need to go and download them off the internet.

That's obviously not the point... the is that it's no justification for copyright-protection.

I don't actually see the argument against publishers having control of their creative property

They don't own our computers, or they don't have rights to what we do with their content. They have the right to copy, with the acception of fair use.

The point I have been trying to make is that the problems caused by the software, I believe, are more minor than the huge amounts of outrage that have appeared on the internet would suggest. It's like all these things; someone files a complaint and everyone else leaps on the bandwagon. It amazes me that people don't spend their lives making complaints about installshield and such programs - after all, they place a whole load of redundant junk in the registry and never delete themselves properly.

It's obviously subjective, what is percieved overreacting or not.

Many programs leave registry keys in the registry, including microsofts, and it's complained about in many circles. It's not really a problem specific to installshield, and more generally it's a problem with the Windows Registry, and how it works.

That's not really the point, InstallShield has a purpose related to the legitimate operating of the software. People are so angry at StarForce because it's completely unnecessary to the legitemate user.

Publishers shouldn't have any control on how I use their software. The licenses and copyright-protection schemes they use are unethical and should not be legally binding. Do people actually know Starforce is being installed? No, so they never agreed to anything.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Aj_

It will definitely have an affect on your machine. Adding unneccesary things like this to a machine is hated in general, you're bloating a system, and creating a chance for problems. People are harsh on the problems that do occur because it's unwanted, unneeded, and badly designed.

To be fair, Starforce has not had an effect on my machine. I have played many Starforce protected games, and I am yet to see a degrade in performance or any conflict. And the fact that you uninstall it when you uninstall the game now does not suggest to me a rootkit but rather a product that is part of the package.

Whether you agree with it as a preventive of piracy or not is another topic for another day (I am personally more inclined now to believe that it can help in prevention), but regardless, I think the company has the right to use it in its products if it believes it can enhance its profits, just like you have the right of not buying these products.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

To be fair, Starforce has not had an effect on my machine. I have played many Starforce protected games, and I am yet to see a degrade in performance or any conflict. And the fact that you uninstall it when you uninstall the game now does not suggest to me a rootkit but rather a product that is part of the package.

Same here. As a matter of fact, I haven't met anyone who actually had a significant problem with Starforce at all. Of course I hear complaints about it on forums, but how legit are they? Many of those complaints are hear say, and others are by people who actually try to pirate a starforce game.

I agree with RLacey here. Even though Starforce may be on the edge of legality/privacy, the complaints about it are completely out of proportion. It doesn't deserve that much bad attention. The ideas behind it are actually quite noble.

[nikoniko]

Here are the results of Ubisoft's investigation into Starforce problems:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums...2/m/8121095173

The good news is, out of all the sold copies of four recent games, only 0.3% of users reported problems connected to Starforce. Even supposing that some users sought help directly from the Starforce website or some other place besides Ubi, there's no way to argue that a significant percentage of people are having problems - at least when it comes to Ubisoft's products.

Being one of the statistically insignificant few who did have serious problems, however, doesn't comfort me much. To be fair to Ubisoft, I should note here that it wasn't with one of their games.

More good news is that most of the problems reported do get solved.

The bad news is that there are two issues they've had trouble with, representing only a fraction of all reported Starforce problems, that don't always get solved:

Originally Posted by MuadDib_FC fro Ubisoft

The first is with a system crash, it only gets solved two thirds of the time. This happens in 2% of reported problems, less than one user out of ten thousands. So its unsolved for one user out of thirty thousands. In such case starting in safe mode and removing the protection suppresses the crash cause.

The second is with cd/dvd functions problems (no more read/write) reported with Silent Hunter 3. Out of 11 such problems reported, only 2 cases were solved. The problem could not be reproduced, and the origin could not be found. It is suspected not linked with Starforce. It could be due to a defective manufacturing of the cd in the first place, as this is appearing only with one game title. On a statistics level, it is still very low, around one user out of a fifty thousands (0.002%).

Guess I'm just a really lucky guy, as I was one of those 1 out of 50000 people who lost drive writing function after installing a Starforce-protected game. With luck like that, I should be playing the lottery instead of computer games.

[fov]

Originally Posted by Aj_

This type of malicious legal scare mongering is becoming widespread on the internet.

So? Slander and defamation of character have been widespread on the internet for ages. It's the corporation's right to protect their company and their character, and in this case it may require legal action to do so. Starforce is probably taking this very seriously, for good reason.

I'm another person who's never had any problem with Starforce. Considering that gamers tend to be power users and put all sorts of crap on their machines on a regular basis, it baffles me that people have singled out Starforce this way. Any time you install something, you're taking a risk that your computer could blow up as a result.

[Jackal]

Certainly if I'd experienced problems myself, as doroposo has, I'd be pretty leery. But the other issue here is that StarForce has had different builds over the years. I think there's no question that one particular build a couple years ago caused a (relatively) significant number of problems. That's what started this whole anti-SF craze. But now that the bandwagon bashing has taken hold, it doesn't seem to matter that that particular build has long since been updated. People still refer to StarForce as if it's exactly the same program now that it was then. No point letting the facts get in the way of rampant paranoia.

[eriq]

I've had no problems with it at all. I think it's strange people blame Starforce for screwing up their machines.

[Jeysie]

I dunno, Doroposo's story alone is enough to turn me off from buying any game protected with StarForce. The fact that there's only a 1 in 50000 chance of a screwup means little if you turn out to be that 1 in 50000 person. I can't afford to buy new hardware if that happens.

Plus I find the fact that StarForce uses system drivers to do nothing but check for a CD to be... bizarre at best. I still remember the time I tried updating the drivers for my ATI video card. I downloaded drivers from the manufacturer that made my card, that are supposed to help with the actual functioning of my hardware, installed them, and they quite literally killed my computer. Rendered it completely non-functional.

And I'm supposed to trust third-party drivers that don't assist in the actual functioning of any hardware or software? Er, no. I get paranoid enough installing drivers for stuff that actually *needs* them to work.

Once bitten, twice shy, as the saying goes.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[fov]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

I dunno, Doroposo's story alone is enough to turn me off from buying any game protected with StarForce. The fact that there's only a 1 in 50000 chance of a screwup means little if you turn out to be that 1 in 50000 person. I can't afford to buy new hardware if that happens.

You've never heard horror stories about Microsoft's software blowing up people's computers? Why don't those stories stop you from using Windows?