[Sage]

I thought about posting an analogy involving showering in a (co-ed, for Aj_'s benefit) gym facility, but it was in too poor taste for even me. Basically, just because you know your neighbor has something doesn't mean you're welcome to use it without asking.

Perhaps a stylish tinfoil hat could provide protection from possibly dangerous and unwanted wi-fi signals invading one's personal space?
*snickers*

ScottMate

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Aj_

I'd call that sharing.

Let me guess: you borrow your neighbor's connection.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Wormsie

Let me guess: you borrow your neighbor's connection.

I don't own any wifi devices.

Originally Posted by Thrift Store Scott

Basically, just because you know your neighbor has something doesn't mean you're welcome to use it without asking.

Without a directional antenna how do you even know it is one of your neighbour's wifi?

I shouldn't be surprised people use the silly unlocked door analogy, because they can't relate this to what really happens, it's sad really because that's what the government does when writing laws, and they haven't had a good track record of that. Where's the trespassing and taking of material things you own?

"But they're stealing my bandwidth!" No, they are using your ISP's bandwidth, and it's likely that your ISP doesn't allow you to openly distribute their bandwidth in that way.

The obligation is on the broadcaster NOT the receiver.

[Lucien21]

Taking or using something you don't pay for is theft.

Using they "it's their own fault they left the access wide open" excuse is obviously bollocks.

After all if I downloaded a copy of "Farenheit" free online. It's still me that's breaking the law. I can't use the excuse that I didn't put it online I was just downloading something that was offered.

The fact of the matter is that the neighbour doesn't connect to the wireless network as if by magic he actually has to connect himself to the open port.

[Ninth]

I'm sure this kind of things is bothersome, but to keep using the open door metaphore, it's like someone went to your house while you had left the door open, toured a bit, and then went away.
Not nice, but not exactly criminal.

[Lucien21]

Originally Posted by Ninth

I'm sure this kind of things is bothersome, but to keep using the open door metaphore, it's like someone went to your house while you had left the door open, toured a bit, and then went away.
Not nice, but not exactly criminal.

Really maybe not in France after all George Stobbart does it wverytime he goes to Paris.

But here in the UK that would be Criminal Tresspass.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

Really maybe not in France after all George Stobbart does it wverytime he goes to Paris.

But here in the UK that would be Criminal Tresspass.

I didn't mean legally criminal (I know criminal is a legal term, but I couldn't find anything else).
I meant that I don't think these people are bastards, merely not very nice.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

Taking or using something you don't pay for is theft.

Since when?

Using they "it's their own fault they left the access wide open" excuse is obviously bollocks.

They didn't just leave it open, they broadcast it to you.

After all if I downloaded a copy of "Farenheit" free online. It's still me that's breaking the law. I can't use the excuse that I didn't put it online I was just downloading something that was offered.

1. When did this move to copyright infringement.
2. What law says you can't use wifi broadcast to you?

Using your analogy, in the US, if Atari sent you Fahrenheit through the mail, but you didn't pay for it, are you obligated under US law to send it back to them?

The fact of the matter is that the neighbour doesn't connect to the wireless network as if by magic he actually has to connect himself to the open port.

Wifi routers on default are set to be open, wifi software by default is set to connect to the strongest signal, so maybe there is no "magic" involved, but he doesn't "actually has to connect himself to the open port".

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by Lucien21

Taking or using something you don't pay for is theft.

I don't pay to breath air but my lungs, they take in the nearest source...it's their default setting.

Originally Posted by Lucien21

Using they "it's their own fault they left the access wide open" excuse is obviously bollocks.

Not at all, if you shout out sensitive information and I overhear it, is it illegal for my ears to overhear you?

Originally Posted by Lucien21

After all if I downloaded a copy of "Farenheit" free online. It's still me that's breaking the law. I can't use the excuse that I didn't put it online I was just downloading something that was offered.

The fact of the matter is that the neighbour doesn't connect to the wireless network as if by magic he actually has to connect himself to the open port.

This would be slightly relevant to the topic if instead, someone came to your door, put a copy of the game on your computer and you had no idea if they're generous or stupid.

If you own a wifi modem thats shouting its signal out to any and all recievers, its your own fault. This has nothing to do with open doors and invitations. The nearest ananlogy is an overheard conversation. The fact that your isp charges you for something as rediculous as internet access is clouding the issue. Look at the mechanics.

Your neighbour can 'as if by magic' get signal from your unprotected wifi modem/router... the default setting on his network card is 'automatically assign me an ip and get me some traffic'... Most wifi leeches are unknowing. You don't have to enter a manual ip address or open any ports.

You only have to do manual finagling when the signal is set up responsibly and you're trying to get access. If Treps neighbour managed to leech bandwidth *now* that signal has been adequately restricted, then it would be outright malice on the nighbours part and entirely their fault, but as it was before the majority of the blame lies on Trep's shoulders.

[fov]

And as far as it being my responsibility to tell the guy down the street that I'm able to use his bandwidth - if he's going to react with such anger over the fact that I was using it in the first place as has been displayed in this thread, why on earth would I want to go knock on his door?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

How would you know he'd be pissed unless you go tell him? I'll bet you a martini he'll be grateful.

[Huz]

Originally Posted by Jake

I love love love when people leave their access points open though... so good for emergency email checkage (my email, not theirs).

Hope you're checking it through some kind of encrypted connection - or that's just asking for trouble.

Apparently there is some visual system people can use for identifying their wifi systems as 'open for all', by chalking symbols on the pavement outside. Never seen any of these symbols though - not that I really know what to look for. And I'm not sure whether the symbols are necessarily drawn by the wifi owner, or just a random person who happens to stumble across the network. If it's the latter, then it doesn't do anything to support the ethical use of random wifi networks, which is a bit of a shame.

If I lived anywhere worthwhile (read: with more than 3 cows nearby), I'd be tempted to set up a heavily firewalled public wifi connection to the internet, just to see how much traffic it got.

[RLacey]

To the best of my knowledge there's nobody near me with a wirless network. My college did have to introduce a ban on people connecting to their network from unregistered machines, though (which eased my regrets at not having bought a PocketPC with wireless).

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Crunchy in milk

Not at all, if you shout out sensitive information and I overhear it, is it illegal for my ears to overhear you?

How is that a proper analogy? Like Scott said, it's not like you can't avoid tapping into an open WLAN. In your analogy, you can't avoid it, and in Aj's, you can't avoid it, and so on. This is the main difference between what all you people who think it's the sender's fault are making in regards to reality. Sorry to break it to you. (Well, technically, Scott did, but it looks like everyone's been conviniently overreading that)

@fov: By the way, how would your neighbour know you used the connection? Except if he went and checked logs, of course. But there's nothing in parts of you having to share. And about getting told his WLAN is open, I'm sure he'd be grateful.

Most wifi leeches are unknowing.

I'll believe this when I see the statistics for it. Promise, mind.

Regardless, though, that only makes me not call them bastards on a moral standpoint, but as I see it, it's still 'trespassing'. Kind of like walking around in a privately owned forest you didn't see the "Do not trespass" sign.

[Aj_]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

How is that a proper analogy? Like Scott said, it's not like you can't avoid tapping into an open WLAN. In your analogy, you can't avoid it, and in Aj's, you can't avoid it, and so on. This is the main difference between what all you people who think it's the sender's fault are making in regards to reality. Sorry to break it to you. (Well, technically, Scott did, but it looks like everyone's been conviniently overreading that)

I never said you can't avoid it, but why should the user want to avoid it? So they can't connect to open wifi signals that people have broadcast for other people to connect to, that's crazy. That's the reality...

Most software is set by default to grab the best signal, why is it so unbelievable to you that a lot of people don't know the signal is open by accident.

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

How is that a proper analogy? Like Scott said, it's not like you can't avoid tapping into an open WLAN. In your analogy, you can't avoid it, and in Aj's, you can't avoid it, and so on. This is the main difference between what all you people who think it's the sender's fault are making in regards to reality. Sorry to break it to you. (Well, technically, Scott did, but it looks like everyone's been conviniently overreading that)

Not at all, the point Scott made is faulty. You repeating it with an additional apology doesn't make it any better, but I appreciate the gesture.

I could very well walk around with a pair of earmuffs or go to some other length to *avoid* hearing any conversation I'm not sure I should be privy to. Likewise I might invest in an oxygen tank and a breathing mask and walk around making sure I don't happen to consume a bit of oxygen that isn't rightfully mine.

If you are in possession of sensitive information and don't want it getting around, you protect it. Especially if you've paid good money for it. Spies don't shout out national secrets across great big fields with megaphones do they?

If you've ever tried setting up a computer to connect to a network with a DHCP server (used in just about every modern router/modem these days to make home networks easier and to facilitate easy internet sharing via NAT) then you'd see most people's settings read something akin to 'do it all automatically'. The server sorts it all out.

If you've ever set up a wifi modem then you'd also notice that the means to restrict your signal to only those you specificially want to isn't on by default but is quite possible, and strenuously recommended.

Bandwidth leeching is even encouraged in some places. If I go to the city I can get free internet access in many places because businesses and our telecommunications companies have sponsored hot spots. Now I'm not suggesting Trep is a telecommunications company, or intended to give out free internet access. I can't begin to guess at the character of his neighbour(s), although you seem willing enough to.

As I see it, it's still 'trespassing'. Kind of like walking around in a privately owned forest you didn't see the "Do not trespass" sign.

A forest is a stationary (relatively speaking) thing into which you must walk. it doesn't naturally move itself around you and expect you to realise it belongs to someone else and would you kindly go to the trouble of avoiding walking amongst it, even if it should happen to be moving about inside your house tempting you with free wood for your fire...

I think Scott's aborted analogy set in the public shower might have proven closer to the mark. If only it had included a great big sign on the guy's back, that he put there himself.

[Edited some spelling errors, not all of them mind you I'm not a saint or anything]

[em-deecee]

A few weeks ago my downstairs neighbor's iTunes library showed up on my computer. There were only a few hundred songs, but I played 'em all. That was when I realized that he was the one leaching off my wireless connection. That provided proper motivation for me to secure my network.

[Crunchy in milk]

While house sitting for my sister when she went overseas, I got to play around with their newly set up wifi modem. Her partner hadn't gotten around to securing it yet and every weekend a computer would show up in the client list. I thought it quite a hoot at the time, looking forward to having a root around on their system a little but the sod didn't have sharing on. I'd have been quite happy to let them stay if only I could have had a bit of fun in return.

Wifi is hardly all its cracked up to be, the trade in line speed for a free roaming connection isn't appealing enough to me. I'm actually surprised Trep found out about his joyrider via a slow connection.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by em-deecee

A few weeks ago my downstairs neighbor's iTunes library showed up on my computer. There were only a few hundred songs, but I played 'em all. That was when I realized that he was the one leaching off my wireless connection. That provided proper motivation for me to secure my network.

LOL!! Did you at least copy his entire music library and then sent him a little note saying "Thanks for the free songs, bud" before cutting him off?

Originally Posted by Crunchy

Wifi is hardly all its cracked up to be, the trade in line speed for a free roaming connection isn't appealing enough to me. I'm actually surprised Trep found out about his joyrider via a slow connection.

When I suspected a leech I checked Users in the task manager but it was only listing me. Curiously, though, once I encrypted my signal the speed went back up to normal.

[em-deecee]

[QUOTE=Intrepid Homoludens]LOL!! Did you at least copy his entire music library and then sent him a little note saying "Thanks for the free songs, bud" before cutting him off?

I confess to snagging a few tunes, but a lot of it was stuff I didn't care for. I'm grateful that he turned me on to Per Gissle. When I did ask him about it later he said he never used iTunes, but his roommate told me he does. How stupid did he think I was? His name is Enis & the songs I listened to came from "Enis's Music." Lord, some people...