[AFGNCAAP]

Today marks the sixtieth anniversary of liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the biggest and most infamous concentration camp. For anyone reading this, whatever you are doing now, please pause for a moment and think about over a million human beings that have been brought to death. Think about destructive power of hatred. Do what you can to make sure that the seed of such hatred is never present in hearts of yours and of people you know.

Thank you.



They say hatred is blind. Blind?
With eyes sharp as a sniper's,
she looks bravely into the future
-- she alone.
Wisława Szymborska

[pinkgothic]

In risk of coming across like a total jerk and ruining my friendship with you: No.

What happened back then was horrible. But as a german, I'm a bit sick of getting told what my ancestors did wrong, paticularily given my own philosophies are something like the polar opposite. These days, the only thing that the past has brought us germans is not regret, but a work around on free speech. If you slag off a jew (not because he's one, just maybe because that one individual is a jerk) here, you're automatically a Nazi, and vice versa must always be tolerated.

I seriously don't condone what happened. But I'm not about to repeat it, neither is anyone else I know, yet at the same time, we've got this taboo forced on us. Draw a swastika and you're out. That's how it works.

I'm just sick of that. Nevermind that if something is repeated often enough, it loses it's value - and in the case of my country's past, having it lose it's deeply meaningful qualities may just be exactly what we're trying to avoid, here.

In short: Auschwitz was horrible, and it should have never existed. This country made a serious mistake back in the early years of the 20th century. It's shown how fragile democracy is. It's shown how much people look for scapegoats (and what terrible acts they're capable of).

Let's not jinx it.

However, I appreciate your thoughts. And I won't stop anyone else from complying.

(If a moderator finds this post is inacceptable, please remove it. I can understand.)

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

I'm a bit sick of getting told what my ancestors did wrong, paticularily given my own philosophies are something like the polar opposite.

Erm... I assume you mean your own philosophies are the polar opposite of what your ancestors did - or do you mean your own philosophies are the polar opposite of finding that wrong?

[pinkgothic]

Former. Sorry, yes, that was a big ambiguous.... if you tear it out of context like that.



BoyToy

[BoyToy]

As a matter of fact, when you read your post for the first time, it is not out of context - because it's pretty much the first thing you say in your post. Only when you read on, it starts to become a context, which can give the reader an idea of your true opinion.

I don't think you should pan me for that.

[pinkgothic]

Um, what? Pardon? Context = entire post. No matter how much you want to think otherwise, honey. You won't call a book's cover its context, either. So... accept the pan like it accepts you.

[BoyToy]

Whether you'd call that context or not is nitpicking.

The point is: When you've only just read so far, your post can easily be misunderstood.

[pinkgothic]

Yup, that's right. But it's still tearing it out of context. And I never debated that it is ambiguous without the rest of the post.

[BoyToy]

So let me do the nitpicking:
I don't think I deserved to be panned for bringing that to your attention?

[pinkgothic]

No, probably not. But you rarely give me even the remotest chance to use a pan on you, I couldn't resist.

I was hoping you could chuckle about it.

[Wormsie]

I will report the two of you.

Anyway, I can't help it, but when someone mentions concentration camps, I start thinking of the pink triangle instead of the star of david. Huh.

[AFGNCAAP]

pinkgothic: I'm not offended. I am, in fact, genuinely sorry, because the last thing I wanted to achieve was my post being read as offensive - to anyone. I am not usually keen on giving great historical speeches or sermons etc., I just thought the occasion is worth... something. I guess I should have restrained from typing anything.

I apologize.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I apologize.

Ack, ack, ack! Nonono! Don't do that.

Like I said, I appreciate those thoughts; I just felt I should voice that it is often seen as a bad thing if us germans don't honour a request like this. "Nazi" is a phrase I've heard a couple of times during my online ventures. Nothing could be further from the truth.

That doesn't invalidate your thoughts at all, AFGNCAAP. There are enough people in the world who don't get to hear it every day and for whom I'm sure this would be a good moment to sit down and think about it.

Edit: And for clarification, I wasn't offended. I'm really sorry for having given that impression. I know my rants can go a bit overboard sometimes, but now THAT is something I don't seem to be able to learn...

[Ninja Dodo]

What gets me is that because what happened was so atrocious people seem to block out that it could just as well happen again.

Hitler was elected democratically you know...

Any time any comparison is made with what the Nazis did there's this kneejerk reaction that 'nothing could ever again be as evil as that' which I think is a very dangerous attitude. The nazis did not rise from the depths of hell or some shit... Something drove these people to do what they did. We can't learn from the past if we focus only on what happened and ignore the how and why.

I find the fact that populist politicians all around the world can still get elected with thinly veiled xenophobia and blatant propaganda extremely worrying.

[BoyToy]

Yeah, I guess in Germany itself the effect of remembering is a bit different, cause it's almost omnipresent and gets done very often. Thus it can wear off and lose effect. (Or can even have counter-productive effects on some people.)

Also, when those moments are getting 'prescribed', poeple will sometimes tend to 'fake' their remembrance. (It's similar with prescribed happiness, btw.)

I think today is a good moment to remember and think, for people who have yet rarely thought about the whole matter of holocaust and how it could happen. (The most shocking realization probably being that it emerged from democracy.)

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Any time any comparison is made with what the Nazis did there's this kneejerk reaction that 'nothing could ever again be as evil as that' which I think is a very dangerous attitude.

*treads on thin ice? : *
George W. Bush comes to mind. Not quite so radical (yet?!), but I do fear a similarity...

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Any time any comparison is made with what the Nazis did there's this kneejerk reaction that 'nothing could ever again be as evil as that' which I think is a very dangerous attitude.

Yeah, couldn't agree more, Ninja!!!

Only when the majority of the population on earth has made the same realization as you, we can be rather sure it won't happen again. (And I fear that's not the case yet.)

[Ninja Dodo]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

*treads on thin ice? : *
George W. Bush comes to mind. Not quite so radical (yet?!), but I do fear a similarity...

Well, that's what I've been saying...

Thing is, something doesn't have to be exactly identical to justify comparisons.

Rumsfeld wipes his ass with the Geneva Convention. He has people tortured in Iraq and Cuba as a matter of policy and Bush randomly bombs just about anything Karl Rove figures they can label a terrorist target. They invaded Iraq because Saddam just annoyed them too damn much and they could do with some oil...

I could go on.

My housemate pointed out that something like the holocaust could not happen without everyone knowing about it pretty fast and immediately putting a stop to it, but what if the most powerful country in the world does something like that? What then?

Do we hold a conference in Brussels and politely suggest to Bush that he stops being such a nazi?

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

What happened back then was horrible. But as a german, I'm a bit sick of getting told what my ancestors did wrong, paticularily given my own philosophies are something like the polar opposite.

Remembrance is a duty, not as an expiation for the sins of your ancesters (and mine), but as a lesson of life for the present and the future.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Remembrance is a duty, not as an expiation for the sins of your ancesters (and mine), but as a lesson of life for the present and the future.

Remembering isn't going to help anyone if they do it so often that it loses it's value. And this happens. Remembering is going to be useless if people don't actually use it to analyse the present day. Those lessons are what's important. And those people who've already learnt them don't have a duty, at all, in my opinion. That's like saying learn the alphabet over and over again once you've got it right. In the case of the alphabet, okay, that's a logical construct, that won't lose it's value, but this is a strongly emotional topic, and it wears off. And that is dangerous. IMO.