[Terabin]

I agree PinkGothic, there's a danger in diluting the event by remembring over and over again so that people get sick of hearing about it. In effect, the diluting of the event is as bad if not worse than not knowing that the event existed. It indicates, perhaps, a lack of compassion. But at the same time, for someone who has heard the issue beat into the ground, becoming desensitized to the issue can be expected, because dredging up emotion for something that people are not personally associated with or something that occured far in the past is a tough thing to do over and over.

This is obviously an extremely complicated issue, but I think the bottom line is that it's hard to sit on the fence between forgetting and not caring. That fence is a painful one, in which people revive pain, perhaps for a good reason, to try to make sure that a similar event does not happen again. Maybe it's something we need to do. We need to be reminded so that we can recognize it if it happens again. Genocide is something that is hard to stop, especially if most people are not aware of what's going on or the extent of what's going on. Ugh, sorry for all this generalizing. I don't really know how it comes to be that a civilized society participates in genocide. What a horrible thing. I don't really have a conclusion or anything. End of post...

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

Remembering isn't going to help anyone if they do it so often that it loses it's value. And this happens. Remembering is going to be useless if people don't actually use it to analyse the present day. Those lessons are what's important. And those people who've already learnt them don't have a duty, at all, in my opinion. That's like saying learn the alphabet over and over again once you've got it right. In the case of the alphabet, okay, that's a logical construct, that won't lose it's value, but this is a strongly emotional topic, and it wears off. And that is dangerous. IMO.

Forgetting it, which is what happens when we stop remembering, is the same as wearing off, only it's immediate and definitive
It's not that I don't see what you mean, I do agree to some extent, but this is philosophy, which doesn't weight that much , IMO, against real facts.
And if anything, remembering is something we owe to the people who suffered then, them or their relatives and descendant.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Ninth

And if anything, remembering is something we owe to the people who suffered then, them or their relatives and descendant.

No. I don't owe those people anything, because I didn't do anything wrong. I find it socially disgusting that it would be expected of me to feel guilty about something or to feel for people that have nothing to do with my life. I have enough to do feeling for the people that do (including those indirectly affected), and I think those deserve not to have my attention dragged elsewhere, otherwise I stop functioning properly for them, and thus for the part of society I'm at least partly responsible for.

The example of evil (Hitler's radical Naziism) is becoming too much of the summary of evil. It's setting boundries where there should be none. People can, as Ninja said, look back at it and say 'Wait, no, nothing can be as evil as that'.

I do not think I have a "duty" to anything to do with my country's past. I know I'm responsible for the politicians when I put my X on the voting form and they actually get elected. I can see what Bush is doing to America and, worse yet, the world. The entire specifically Nazi stuff is just distracting me.

Of course, this is me, and I believe in duality, and the neccessity of limiting something so it remains intense. That is how it is for me. Maybe others aren't like that, and need monotonous reminding. But for me, making something like this a duty, and shoving it down my throat each time again, is just counterproductive. And I can't imagine I'm the only one.

So what's worse? Having many people get sick of the message, or risking that people won't pass on the word, e.g. in history lessons? And I'd simply say former.

[Maquisard]

Hmmm...Hitler might have been elected democratically, but his reign had nothing to do with democracy. I mean, if the guy survived 30 assasination attempts, makes you think he ceased being quite the likable guy? I have problems with accusing the entire German nation for the acts of those few monsters who were directly responsible. Hell, even in the German army back then, you could've found bright, shining examples of humanity.

Does that mean I think this couldn't happen again, that we've learned how to safeguard democracy? Hmm--no, I'm sure it could, and I'm sure we haven't.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Mares

Hmmm...Hitler might have been elected democratically, but his reign had nothing to do with democracy.

The german people back then was fine dealing with him being in charge. That's probably the most horrible thing about it.

[Maquisard]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

The german people back then was fine dealing with him being in charge. That's probably the most horrible thing about it.

Well sure, I guess anything was better than the post WWI poverty. I don't believe they grasped what was actually happening? Not with the "freedom of the press" they had going back then, you know what I mean? Sure, they bought the entire anti-semitism thing, but maybe never realised how far it would go...Or is that just wishful thinking on my part, dammit?

[BoyToy]

Remembrance is a duty

Well, ultimately, I'd say yes it is a collective duty of mankind. Yes, to ensure that holocaust doesn't get forgotten. But that's pretty much a question of how often.

Remembrance it is only a tool. Basically a useful tool, but also a very indirect one. And you have to ask yourself what you want to achieve with it.

The danger I see in the current useage of that tool is the following: The statesmen in their speeches, and accordingly many people on the streets say something like "This must never be forgotten! Because [things like] this must never happen again!"
The risk in that is, that people make it appear as if there was a causality between the two statements: As if remembrance alone would sufficiently guarantee that it won't happen again. And I must say: That's a false conclusion! Even if you remember it, you can still involuntarily contribute to similar things happening again!!!

In my opinion, the important point to prevent things like this happening again, is to let people make the necessary abstraction of the mechanisms that can mislead people into collectively doing injustice to other cultures.

Certainly, in that regard remembrance is a helpful tool to initiate a thinking process within the individuals. But it comes down to how (and how often) this tool is applied.
Mantra-like recitations of "This must never be forgotten! Because this must never happen again!" won't make people start to think. In fact there's a big risk that it stops them from making their own thoughts about it. It's can become a bit blinding, you know.

But, like I said, I think it's a good starting point to draw people's attention to the matter and the underlying problem. Only, once the attention is there, we must go a step further and not just repeat the deafening mantra over and over again.

Of course, the question of "how often" has to be individually answered differently.
In my personal opinion, there's simply too many tag-line repetition going on, and not enough discussion and thinking about the general problem itself.


So, I'd put it a bit differently and say: "Thinking is a duty." And remembrance can be a good tool to initiate thinking.


Another aspect, which I didn't touch, is of course, the personal remembrance of the victims. No doubt, that's a very appropriate reason - yet not a duty, because it completely depends on the individuals feelings and relation to the victims.
Dolor can't be a duty. You either sincerley feel it inside yourself or not.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Mares

Well sure, I guess anything was better than the post WWI poverty. I don't believe they grasped what was actually happening? Not with the "freedom of the press" they had going back then, you know what I mean? Sure, they bought the entire anti-semitism thing, but maybe never realised how far it would go...Or is that just wishful thinking on my part, dammit?

I guess 'they' 'just' 'slipped' into it. And once they realized what was really going on, it was too late.
Only the fewest of people had ill wishes when it started, I think. But once it had become a well noticable monster, only the fewest people did not have a bad conscience about it.

I know this sounds as if I'd make it appear more harmless than it was. But I am not. That's exactly one of the great dangers: It appears harmless when it starts!


Also, I think even after it was 'too late' and life-threatening to act-up against the regime, it would have in my opinion been every single one's duty to act-up against it. (Though that's really easy for me to say now, no doubt.)

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

No. I don't owe those people anything, because I didn't do anything wrong. I find it socially disgusting that it would be expected of me to feel guilty about something or to feel for people that have nothing to do with my life.

It has nothing to do with feeling guilty. The weight of these death is heavy on history, and history is was makes us. Therefore is deserves respect; the dead deserve respect, especially more so in the case of the holocaust because of the how and the how many. Not remembering them is lacking repect, so it shocks me (I'm not telling that it's what you do, mind).

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

I have enough to do feeling for the people that do (including those indirectly affected), and I think those deserve not to have my attention dragged elsewhere, otherwise I stop functioning properly for them, and thus for the part of society I'm at least partly responsible for.

I don't get it. Remembering is not the same as emotionnally suffering, or devoting one's time to. Stopping some times to think about the massacre of the jews (and gipsies, and homosexuals, ...) won't deprive your friends and famaliy from your love.

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

The example of evil (Hitler's radical Naziism) is becoming too much of the summary of evil. It's setting boundries where there should be none. People can, as Ninja said, look back at it and say 'Wait, no, nothing can be as evil as that'.

I agree.

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

I do not think I have a "duty" to anything to do with my country's past.

Did I said you had a duty because you were german? It's got nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

Of course, this is me, and I believe in duality, and the neccessity of limiting something so it remains intense. That is how it is for me. Maybe others aren't like that, and need monotonous reminding. But for me, making something like this a duty, and shoving it down my throat each time again, is just counterproductive. And I can't imagine I'm the only one.

Look, it feels like "shoving down your throat" because you choose to feel it that way. I don't. I can agree that some people are overdoing it, but in this case I just choose to ignore them (for example, not being able to pick on a moron who happens to be a jew without being accused of being racist is untolerable). But the original post was very reasonable, not at all accusing or anything.

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

So what's worse? Having many people get sick of the message, or risking that people won't pass on the word, e.g. in history lessons? And I'd simply say former.

I disagree, of course, but this is purely hypothetical, so who knows.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

So, I'd put it a bit differently and say: "Thinking is a duty." And remembrance can be a good tool to initiate thinking.

Yes. Except that to me, remembrance is an indispensable tool to initiate thinking.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

In my personal opinion, there's simply too many tag-line repetition going on, and not enough discussion and thinking about the general problem itself.


So, I'd put it a bit differently and say: "Thinking is a duty." And remembrance can be a good tool to initiate thinking.

... which was exactly the point of my post.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Yes. Except that to me, remembrance is an indispensable tool to initiate thinking.

Yeah, I agree. You need to remember to be able to learn from history, that's true.
Yet technically you (every individual) only needs to get the thinking process initiated once. Well, let's say: a few times. But not monotonously repeated when it's not necessary for the individual anymore.

Of course, there's a difference between the individual and the collective - and the question remains, "how do we ensure that every single individual starts to thoroughly think about it"? That's the collective's duty.

Thus ultimately I argee that remembrance is a duty. But I mean remembrance in general, and not remembrance on a given occasion. Above that, it is much better if the awareness about the history-lesson has sunken into your own mind-set, and isn't just popping-up on days like this and then forgotten again. You just have to make sure the lesson is passed to future generations.


So it boils down to the last question you quoted from Pinksie in which the two of you disagree. I agree that, ultimately, the question can't be answered.

Personally, I feel, the right way is somewhere inbetween.
Speaking of my impression of the country I live in, the prescribed remembrance is obviously over-done and has the counter-productive deafening effect on too many people. Which is very sad.

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

... which was exactly the point of my post.

And apparently it worked!
We had to do a lot of thinking, didn't we?!

On the other hand, I don't think it had any effect on those, who'd actually require the thinking process. (Which is exactly Pinksie's point. )

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

So, I'd put it a bit differently and say: "Thinking is a duty." And remembrance can be a good tool to initiate thinking.

Agreed.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Ninth

the dead deserve respect, especially more so in the case of the holocaust because of the how and the how many.

I think we should be focussing on deaths happening today, not those in the past. Iraq, for example. And for all I care, the tsunami victims, though at least that wasn't a man-made catastrophe, like Iraq.

Originally Posted by Ninth

Stopping some times to think about the massacre of the jews (and gipsies, and homosexuals, ...) won't deprive your friends and famaliy from your love.

Are you really sure of that? I'm not. In fact, I'm claiming otherwise. Their pains are made to look like irrelevancies in light of such events.

Originally Posted by Ninth

Did I said you had a duty because you were german? It's got nothing to do with it.

No, that's right, but the non-germans have even less of a "duty" to fulfill, IMO.

Originally Posted by Ninth

But the original post was very reasonable, not at all accusing or anything.

I know. I didn't feel offended by AFGNCAAP's post. I haven't felt offended at all, except tangentially by your suggestion that this should be a duty - and even that is a minor point barely worth mentioning. This is my soap box and I will defend my views accordingly. That doesn't mean that I feel personally attacked. It only means I feel strongly.

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

And apparently it worked! We had to do a lot of thinking, didn't we?!

On the other hand, I don't think it had any effect on those, who'd actually require the thinking process. (Which is exactly Pinksie's point. )

I completely agree, BoyToy. I hope you don't mind, AFGNCAAP. If this debate is going too far for you, drop me a line and I'll gladly shut up. I don't see harm in how this thread has deviated - perhaps the debate has brought the events into the minds of people more vividly than them briefly rummaging through history knowledge. I hope so.

[AFGNCAAP]

I was more afraid that the thread may go completely unnoticed, actually. I don't mind at all .

[BoyToy]

*hugs The Artist Formerly Known As AFGNCAAP*

[jjacob]

I think we can't remember/contemplate the holocaust enough, but it won't surprise me one bit if there was not much of a ceremony in 50 years or so. On the other hand it's so disturbing to see people like Putin and Cheney attending the ceremony, while they're clearly people who haven't learned one single lesson from history Remembering is indeed one thing, but learning from it is something completely different. 60 years on, and there's still genocide all over the world, although the modern world is pretty much apathetic/ignorant to such events. I think the world we live in today is far worse than how people thought it would be after the second World War in most respects.

[BoyToy]

I agree, the world of today is probably worse than people 60 years ago would have expected it to become. Yet I have the impression the world of today is, by and large, a better place than 60 years ago.

But this impression might just be because I am lucky to be in the right place at the right time? I'm not sure. However, all in all, I have a rather optimistic gut feeling about the development of humanity in the long run. (Certainly it seems to go a bit downhill at the moment.)