[stuboy]

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Funniest thing I have ever read (and that's probably only a slight exaggeration. It is absolutely genuine. I laughed my drink out of my nose for about five minutes, until the truth hit me; some people are actually taking this shit at face value. For the record, I have never played D and D in my life (although I briefly played a CRPG using the ruleset) so don't decide not to read this because you smell a personal agenda. It truly is very funny, and yet also very disturbing. Also worth checking out are this guys views on Roman Catholics.

[SakSquash]

???????????????????????????

[Jeysie]

Ah, yes... that's a well-known bit of D&D "history"...

I'd like to think that by this point people have finally cottoned on to the fact that D&D (and all non-C RPGs, for that matter) are nothing more than collaborative storytelling... a sort of structured improv, as it were.

Besides, as any D&D player will tell you, sessions often end up being more like the session in this Flash animation...

Peace & Luv, Liz

P. S. Or maybe my DM just kept me in the dark about the part where you actually get to learn real spells as opposed to just rolling dice and reading off character sheets... you never know.

[jjacob]

Wh...





edit: God that flash animation is hilarious

[lumi]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

Besides, as any D&D player will tell you, sessions often end up being more like the session in this Flash animation...

I've seen two animations for the sound file, but neither of them are good. I always prefer just listening to the audio.

[Sage]

There's a phenomenal amount of hate-mongering going on at that website. I have to give them credit though...they seem to hate everyone equally.

[squarejawhero]

I'm waiting for SamNMax to post something along the lines of "old"...

[squarejawhero]

Originally Posted by Thrift Store Scott

There's a phenomenal amount of hate-mongering going on at that website. I have to give them credit though...they seem to hate everyone equally.

That site is actually really damn sick.

[Jeysie]

Originally Posted by stuboy

Also worth checking out are this guys views on Roman Catholics.

You know, that reminds me... at the risk of sidetracking the thread (I admit I'd much rather talk about D&D), what is the deal with Catholicism vs. Christianity anyway?

I remember back when I was first dating my ex-boyfriend, who was very religious, he was a bit dismayed that I was agnostic, so he started extolling the virtues of being Christian and how if I gave it a chance, and so on. I told him that I was quite familiar with Christianity already, thanks, since I had spent the first 10 years of my life raised Catholic. He then said that Catholicism wasn't really Christianity, which made me look at him like he'd gone completely round the bend.

I had always been under the impression that Catholicism was the "original" Christianity that the other sects all broke off from, kinda like Conservative and Reform Judaism versus Orthodox Judaism or something. So what's the real deal? I never quite figured that out.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[squarejawhero]

Catholicism is founded on Emporer Constantine's version of Christianity and its subsequent use as a socio-political tool to subdjucate the masses throughout the best part of over a thousand years. At least that's what I make of it. Hence "Roman Christian", stemming from the late years of the Empire.

http://www.roman-emperors.org/conniei.htm

[Sage]

...and then Martin Luther posted his list of protests about the Catholic church on the door of the local cathedral. A lot of people agreed with him, and split off from the Catholics to become Protestants.

[Jeysie]

Ooooh-kay. I knew about the Protestant part, which is why I always thought Catholicism was the "root" religion. But it sounds like some other sect is the "original/normative" version of Chrisitianity, then?

(I never could quite make out how all the different sects of Christianity related to each other and differed, but I suspect that's far, far beyond the scope of a forum thread. )

Peace & Luv, Liz

[nikoniko]

I used to pass out those Chick tracts, even though I was an avid D&D player. I was a kid, though, had to do what I was told, at least when the fam was watching...



Well, as a former Protestant, from a somewhat-fundamentalist, officially "non-denominational" church (essentially Baptist, but they didn't want to call it that), I'd say the key issue is disagreement about exactly what's necessary to achieve salvation and keep it. Some modern Protestants believe it's enough to once in life express sincere faith in Christ as the Son of God who came to save us from our sins, promise to follow Him, get baptized, and then you're saved forever, no matter what kind of crap you do later in life. Catholics tend to believe salvation is a more complex matter than that, worked out through one's lifetime rather than centering on a single moment. Also, there are the longstanding issues between Protestants and Catholics over the Pope as the head of the Church, the special position of Mary, whether priests have the right to tell people their sins are forgiven, whether saints should be specially exalted and revered, and so on and so on. Some believe the issues are big enough to cast into doubt whether Catholics are truly Christian, particularly the matter of salvation. Even regarding the matter of baptism, these strict Protestants will insist that only a "believer's baptism" (being baptized after professing belief in Christ as your personal Savior) is true baptism, and that the christening/baptism of infants that the Catholics perform is not valid.

If you really want a scary and eye-opening experience, go visit the Springfield International Church of Christ sometime. They not only believe that Catholics are not Christians, but that nobody is a true Christian except for them. And to ensure their members remain true Christians, they try to control their lives very closely, taking up so much of their time and money that they can't possibly stray. They were trying really hard to convert my girlfriend and me after we met some of their members on campus. They resorted to all sorts of questionable means in their attempts to win us over, the most innocuous of which was constantly bombarding us with religious flyers. We finally got so tired of it that we made our own flyer and posted it at the busstops on campus. It played on the constant question we were asked everytime we ran into one of them: "Have you found God yet?" After a while, we became convinced that we weren't the ones who had lost God and needed to find Him, but that they were.

So we put up flyers that read:

Lost: God.

Answers to the names:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If found, please return to the
Springfield International Church of Christ.

Not very nice, I know, but we were young, and I was a very stupid young man in more ways than I'd care to admit. It's interesting to note, though, that the flyers were seen by most people to be some bizarre sort of advertising for the Springfield Church, and as a result the church received an administrational reprimand which barred them from organized proselytizing on campus... in other words, they could never bombard us with their own flyers again.

[artwking4]

Everybody better start burning their rock'n'roll CD's. Especially their Christian rock music.

[nikoniko]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

Catholicism is founded on Emporer Constantine's version of Christianity

The church was already well-established in Rome two centuries before Constantine entered the scene, but you're right in that his endorsement of Christianity is what made it possible for Christianity to gain much of the influence that it subsequently achieved. Protestants often believe that this is when the "corruption" of the Church first began, the day when Christianity and secular politics merged.

The church in Rome was already calling itself Catholicus ("universally accepted") prior to that, with the eastern Church preferring the label Orthodoxos ("correct teaching"). These competitive-sounding titles became all the more important as the western and eastern traditions drifted apart and ultimately declared themselves in total schizm after the sacking of Constantinople, seat of the Eastern Church.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by doroposo

Protestants often believe that this is when the "corruption" of the Church first began, the day when Christianity and secular politics merged.

Figures. Divine ideas always sound so exquisite......until you throw people into the mix. *shrugs*

[Jeysie]

All right, this is some interesting food for thought!

Originally Posted by doroposo

Some believe the issues are big enough to cast into doubt whether Catholics are truly Christian, particularly the matter of salvation.

See, that's where my confusion lies. What exactly makes people feel Catholics aren't Christian? What is "true" Christianity then, as a "yardstick"? Does this mean Catholicism is its own "religion", then?

Peace & Luv, Liz

[mszv]

Of course Catholics are Christians - I'm not getting it.

[nikoniko]

Originally Posted by Jeysie

See, that's where my confusion lies. What exactly makes people feel Catholics aren't Christian? What is "true" Christianity then, as a "yardstick"? Does this mean Catholicism is its own "religion", then?

Sadly, I still know all the scripture and rhetoric behind this... but I really don't want to dredge it all up, because of how thoroughly oppressive that time in my life was.

Of course, there are so many varieties of Protestantism these days, that I can only speak for my own specific background, but from what I've seen it tends to represent the typical beliefs of your average "Catholics aren't Christians" sort of person.

Basically, these people usually believe that there are four specific conditions for salvation: to admit that you are a sinner and can't save your own soul; to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God made flesh, who came to earth to die for our sins, then conquered death through His resurrection so that we could have immortal life; to ask forgiveness for your sins; and to ask Jesus to come into your life and make you a new person, make you "born again". After repenting and asking Christ into your life, then you're considered to be saved - you're guaranteed eternal life. Most of these same people even believe that it's impossible for you to lose your salvation, regardless of what you do later in life. (Some add to this that a public profession of faith during baptism is also necessary to prove one's commitment to Christ, so that's almost like a requirement for salvation.) These people emphasize that it is only one's faith in Christ as Savior that enables one to have salvation, that no good works or good character can influence this salvation. They support this through various scriptures, many by Paul, that would seem to express the idea that faith alone is sufficient to receive God's grace.

Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

Romans 1:17-18
Therefore the just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith [alone] apart from the deeds of the law. (Martin Luther inserted the word "alone" in his translation of this verse.)

Romans 10: 9
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 3: 9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:22-25
But the Scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up from the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And so on and so on and so on.....

They conveniently ignore the very clear passage in James about the matter of having faith without proof through one's actions (emphasis mine):

James 2: 14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I've added the emphasis to illustrate the basis upon which the Catholic Church would argue that there's more to salvation than a simple profession of faith, that one demonstrates faith through actions of good character, and that without such integrity, one's faith is not genuine - in fact, is dead or was not genuine to begin with.

The stupid thing here is that both groups are actually teaching the same thing. They both agree that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, but certain Protestants reject the idea that faith is proven by what you do, that without that demonstration one does not really have faith, and hence, does not have salvation.

Martin Luther actually hated this passage from James, because it made faith seem more complicated than he thought it to be. For a time, he questioned whether the book of James was authentic scripture, but then he realized by opening up such a line of questioning, one could call into question any scripture, and begrudgingly ignored it from them on. There have been all sorts of bizarre attempts to read the text in a way other than how it sounds (ironically, often by the same sort of people who claim the Bible should be taken literally... exactly as it sounds)... but none of them have ever made enough sense to me that I could express them for you. Hopefully what I've written enough to illustrate where some people find a basis for seeing a difference in salvation docrine. And since for these same strict Protestants we've been talking about, salvation doctrine is key above all else, they often decide that Catholics are not Christian, because they incorrectly perceive that Catholics distort the primacy of faith [alone] for salvation.

*sigh* I don't know if that makes any sense... even though this is what I was taught for years, you can probably tell it doesn't make sense to me. I spent several years studying church history to try to sort it all out, even became Catholic for a while (went through the whole confirmation process). After that I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy for a time since I thought that was a happy middle between Protestantism and Catholicism, then finally gave up on Christianity altogether. It simply wore me out.

As for "true Christianity", who knows? I'm pretty sure any church which identifies with the name Christian believes they are teaching true Christianity. Unless God decides to step in and clear up the matter, I'd say almost anybody's claim has some merit. Surely, true Christianity must have something to do with Christ and salvation, but exactly what will long be a matter of debate.

Even the church of Constantine's time was struggling with this question of true Christianity, and during the first council of Nicea released a creed, which was supposed to some up all the essentials of the Christian faith, then revised it 50 years later when they decided that wasn't sufficient to counter all heresies. This is the revised version, 381 AD:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, eternally begotten from the father,
Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten not made, one in Being with the Father.
through whom all things came into being,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down from the heaven and became incarnate
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, becoming man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
suffered and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures
he ascended to the heavens and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
And his kingdom will have no end
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

I'm more or less an atheist these days, so there's very little religion that actually does make sense to me. I don't object to the idea that there could be a God, but generally I feel that he or she or it got lost in all the mess of human stupidity long, long ago...

[Lucien21]

What a disturbing website.

It's amazing that people of intellegence actually believe any of that bollocks.

:LOL:


P.S has anyone seen the new spoof documentary about DND

http://www.gamers-themovie.com/