[Terramax]

I've recently come to realise one of the biggest points of adventure games which I hate the most and, sometimes, can put me off of one. Bad character design (in 3rd person AGs).

Some games have the most terrific backgrounds. One of the most recent I really got into was the demo of Kaptain Brawe (available at Adventure-eu) but, like so many other games both professional and indie, the game has a character design that seems so out of place.

This is mostly in 'realistic' environment games though. Games such as Still Life, The Moment of Silence, Syberia, the upcoming BS4 (and 3) and tones of other horror AGs where, whilst there is massive attention to detail on level design, characters look like they've been made at the last minute, walk and run dodgily, never seem to look like they're doing any hand actions realistically and generally looking like some cheap character modal you'd see in a demo.

What is with these 3D character designs with no character? I'd be really happ y if some programmers happening to read this could add in their 2 pennies worth of ideas too.

What do you think guys?

[Squinky]

I'm inclined to agree with you. In indie games (my own included) it's usually because the person who does the art is not a professional, or is a professional-level artist but not a professional-level animator. Working at a real game company has helped me learn that it really does take specialists in various areas to make all the little things flow together and work perfectly.

With the commercial AGs you mentioned, I'm guessing that many of them have smaller teams than your average big huge game company, meaning there are fewer specialists. Thus, they run into similar problems to the ones that the aforementioned indie games face.

(However, I think it's worth mentioning that some indie games DO have really good animation. Not mine, though. )

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by Squinky

(However, I think it's worth mentioning that some indie games DO have really good animation. Not mine, though. )

I wasn't implying all indie games, only some are out of place. I mean, with Kaptain Brawe, wouldn't it be better to make the characters in the same animated style as the backgrounds (It certainly works for Runaway and Broken Sword 1 and 2).

Of course, realistic graphic games is harder, but I think, at the end of the day, characters add up to the style of the game. I have more a problem with a cemmercial game with bad character design (The Moment Of Silence was one that really irratated me) it's sometimes as if people cut and paste characters from one game to another.

[TekXombie]

I'll have to agree also but the thing I found lacking in most adventure games are character animations. I recently started playing Paradise and I'm almost repulsed by the lack of time spent on the character animations. They spent so much time on the asthetics of colors and all this extra time on putting in little details like flying birds, smoke and steam but spent almost no time on adding adequate transitional animations or convincing character animations EVEN on the main character.

[Scoville]

I think this is more of a cultural issue than one particular to adventure games. Almost all Western games ever made have had little to no focus on interesting character design, making their characters relatively bland and dull, while Eastern games make the characters one of the main foci, often at the expense of other aspects of the game.

This dates all the way back to the start of games. While Western games starred a ping-pong paddle or the ship from Defender, Eastern games had Pac-Man, Frogger, and Mario. The only real exception was during the 16-bit era when every console game publisher wanted a hip side-scrolling mascot. But even those games lacked interesting designs, as they all tried to rip off Sonic the Hedgehog and failed miserably.

Since adventure games are typically a Western genre, this pattern carries over to them. It's true there are a lot of Japanese adventures, but most are never released outside of their native country. Those that are often do have interesting character designs (Phoenix Wright, Shadow of Destiny, Touch Detective).

[JohnGreenArt]

I know in the case of Kaptain Brawe (which is entirely being made by one person) that the developer does not have the resources needed to do traditional animation of the characters. While it would be more desirable for the project, it's just beyond her limits. The 3D is a means to an end (and it should improve from what's in the demo when the final game is done.) Also, though 3D, those characters are more cartoony in design then what you'd find in the more realistic 3D games, and I find the attempt at realism in 3D to be more disturbing than a cartoony approach in 3D.

I myself just don't have the time or energy to learn how to model in 3D, so my game Nearly Departed will have 2D characters, some of which you can see in the demo.

www.johngreenart.com/nearlydeparted

[Kaptain Brawe]

Hi.

While I don't intend to get into "why 3D and not 2D" discussion (as John stated above, I don't have the time, knowledge and resources to animate all of the 20 characters appearing in the first episode).

And frankly, that doesn't really concern me.

But what would concern me, and that's why I am replying here, do you think that Kaptain Brawe (as a character) lacks "character" because he is in 3D and not 2D?

I don't know...if you have a solution, please, I'm all for traditional 2D animation, but I know I can't do it. So...

And btw, Runaway has 3D characters with motion captured animations. So, when you have a 5-10 million dollar budget, you get actors, and tell them what actions you want them to perform. They do it, you capture it, and transfer it on a 3D model. Add a cell shader, and you get 2D "proffesionaly" animated characters.

And while we are at it, I thought Brian and Gina were one of the most AWFUL character designs ever (not including the Drag Queens).
That's what I think is really dissapointing.

Maybe I am wrong?

[RLacey]

And there I was thinking that this thread was going to be a rant about the lack of time spent on charecterisation...

[EvoG]

Originally Posted by TekXombie

...the thing I found lacking in most adventure games are character animations.

Amen to that. I'm a character animator in this industry, and you'd be surprised how many dev's want only conventional game motion(walks, runs, attacks, deaths), but nothing imbued with any character or at the most limited character detail, either for the sake of keeping frame counts low, or not wanting to propagate that quality across the anim set(less is more...in their eyes) so anims can even be shared between characters. Generic is the operative word. Then again, fire up almost any game and see for yourself. Mind you I'm not referring to good or bad quality motion, but 'interesting' character motion.

I worked briefly on ONE project that was entirely character motion driven, and it was a prototype boxing game for the DS (if you played a toon boxing game on the GBA, you know what it is), and I absolutely loved it. Unfortunately, I have no idea if it ever went into full prod.

Anyway, point is, out of almost 10 years doing freelance, only two projects wanted real "character" animation; this one, and one far along in development, ultimately to be cancelled by EA (Ultima X Online). Perhaps this just says more about me than the dev's I managed to work with, but you get the idea.

With the tremendous advances in graphic fidelity, I'm baffled that animation is still low on the list of priorities, short of those few companies like Sucker Punch and Naughty Dog.


Cheers

[Lee in Limbo]

I think EvoG has hit it on the head.

You see, the thing is, most devs in the industry have no background in animation (let alone visual arts, in many cases), and thus, don't put much stress on lifelike animated behaviours. We see some in certain games, but for the most part, it's all walk/run/push/climb/jump/shoot/throw/talk. These are the essentials, so of course every game dev thinks about getting those in there, but they very often think that the rest is nice but nonessential.

Whereas, if you have someone on staff, or perhaps a dev themself, who has at least some background in animation, you get more emphasis on human behaviourisms, regardless of the actual character design, which goes a long way towards making the characters believable. You can have the most photorealistic characters, or perhaps the most abstracted cartoon characters, but so long as they exhibit familiar but completely nonessential behaviourisms, the audience will find themselves empathizing better, which is far more essential than how detailed the character rendering is.

As far as actual character design is concerned, I personally prefer characters to be designed very much to suit their environments. this requires an art director who has a very solid grasp of what the settings and the mood of the game are going to be. Even cartoon environments can have realistic characters moving about in them, but it helps if the character designs aren't too mundane. So, Eddie Valiant can wanrder around in Toon Town without looking too out of place, mainly because Bob Hoskins is dressed fairly clownishly to begin with, even though his clothing is period-correct for the rest of the film.

However, it's just as easy to make a very abstract, cartoonish character move and act believably in a photorealistic environment and still get that pathos from the audience, as decades of manga and anime have ably proven. You just have to make the cartoon character exhibit recognizable, if exaggerated behavioursims. Suddenly, the cartoon character seems more believable than the environment they are in. It's an illusion, but it works.

Ultimately, the art is in finding that happy balance between character design and the environments they are expected to move around in. That said, so much of it is so subjective that it's really hard to break it all down without going into very dry details that won't make sense to anyone who isn't schooled in the arts. So your best bet is to design characters that make sense to you in these settings, and then make sure you have animated them as believably as possible, without skimping on the human behaviourisms.

A good way to get the kind of information you need is to actually watch some really good classic animation and actually watch what the characters are doing when they aren't actively advancing the plot. I prefer old Warner Brothers, Tex Avery, Bob Clampett, Fleischer Bros, and early Disney films, myself. You'll pick up a whole lexicon of character traits that are unique to certain characters, and you'll get to see how those behaviourisms are fitted seemlessly into the story in such a way that you can't imagine them not being there.

After that, you'll notice the same thing in any good movie where the actors and director understand about adding human behaviourisms to fill in the blanks.

And that's about as much as this wannabe game dev knows about that.

[noknowncure]

Originally Posted by Lee in Limbo

A good way to get the kind of information you need is to actually watch some really good classic animation and actually watch what the characters are doing when they aren't actively advancing the plot. I prefer old Warner Brothers, Tex Avery, Bob Clampett, Fleischer Bros, and early Disney films, myself. You'll pick up a whole lexicon of character traits that are unique to certain characters, and you'll get to see how those behaviourisms are fitted seemlessly into the story in such a way that you can't imagine them not being there.

Excellent advice. Its often easy to forget just how quickly an audience accepts and understands the characters in classic animations.

"All the pleasure and the truth lie in the details."

[Terramax]

I think EvoG and Lee pretty much sum up what I mean. Some games look believability and involvement because the games are so unlifelike and unfamilier.

Kaptain Brawe was a bad example because it's not that bad. I think the game looks terrific and, whilst initially having a distaste for the character design, I don't seem to mind. It's mainly more 'realistic' games such as Around The World In 40 Days or damn Macroids games that irratate me. Doesn't anyone just feel like some characters in AG games looking like they've been made by some random design option?

Lack of character in Kaptain Brawe is more to do with little emotion on the character, something which most 3D character modals lack. But there are often games where players don't even have mouths, only heads that shake up and down when they talk.

It doesn't always take that much though. Ever noticed the facial expressions in Grim Fandango? This game has one of the most simple character animations that I could almost draw. However, it's the little movements in Manny's eyebrows and large teech that says so much to the audience.