[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

You know how some adventures have that useful option of switching off reflex-based challenges? Well, I think there should be another option: being able to shut off inventory puzzles. If you uncheck one of these, that portion of the game will be shown as a "cutscene". What do I mean by that? Well, in cases of twitchy-stuff, the developers could take a video of one of them playing through it, so that you see how it goes, but you don't actually have to do it yourself. And in cases of inventory puzzles... Let's say the character walks into a room where three inventory items are hidden. If you're playing without inventory puzzles, then the very first thing the character will do as you enter is (without your direct control) walk over to those objects and pick them up, so that detail-missers like myself shouldn't have to go pixel hunting. Then, when the character comes across a situation which needs one of the inventory buttons, he does it automatically (without waiting for the player to tell him to). This should be an option in most adventure games, I think.

Sounds like you just designed Dreamfall.

[Kurufinwe]

You mean there was an option to turn on puzzles in Dreamfall? Crap, someone ought to have told me!

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

In my adventure games, the inventory is an important part of the gameplay and to give the player this option would be like removing half the gameplay. If someone else wanted an option to switch off conversational gameplay, say, then if you combined the two you'd effectively be just watching a film.

What's your point? Do you have something against film? If you create a game with inventory puzzles, then I'm going to be spending only half my time enjoying the game, and the other half pulled out of the experience with walkthroughs and general hair-tugging. I'd rather enjoy the story without the misery, thank you very much, and I don't see why developers are so insecure about interactivity that they think they need to force it down the player's throat even when they can't stand it.

[Dale Baldwin]

Inventory puzzles are one of the reasons why I play AGs and aren't so keen on those that don't have an inventory.

I'd like to see if anyone agrees with your latest idea, Mori

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

What's your point? Do you have something against film? If you create a game with inventory puzzles, then I'm going to be spending only half my time enjoying the game, and the other half pulled out of the experience with walkthroughs and general hair-tugging. I'd rather enjoy the story without the misery, thank you very much, and I don't see why developers are so insecure about interactivity that they think they need to force it down the player's throat even when they can't stand it.

Isn't this a bit like asking for more first person shooters to be made without combat (and don't bring up Metroid Prime here, because I still maintain that it is an FPS, regardless of what you think )? Or maybe like asking for a football game where the match plays itself automatically?

I dunno. It just strikes me that if you want to remove all the actual gameplay because you don't like it then a) why not watch a film and b) why are you wanting to play adventure games?

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Dale Baldwin

Inventory puzzles are one of the reasons why I play AGs and aren't so keen on those that don't have an inventory.

Did you see where I made the word "option" bold? If I'm reading a book, and I like where the story is going but I've just come across an unbearably long description of something (I can't handle descriptions for psychological reasons), I skip it. Not giving the option of turning off inventory puzzles is like the book not allowing me to turn the page until it feels I've suffered enough. Say you do put in this option- who does it harm? You obviously wouldn't use it, so it wouldn't effect you at all. But then you wouldn't need subtitles either, and I doubt you object to those.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Did you see where I made the word "option" bold? If I'm reading a book, and I like where the story is going but I've just come across an unbearably long description of something (I can't handle descriptions for psychological reasons), I skip it. Not giving the option of turning off inventory puzzles is like the book not allowing me to turn the page until it feels I've suffered enough. Say you do put in this option- who does it harm? You obviously wouldn't use it, so it wouldn't effect you at all. But then you wouldn't need subtitles either, and I doubt you object to those.

Again, I question why you'd want to start playing a game if you hate its gameplay...

Anyway, this kind of option would be considered as cheating by a lot of people, and many of them wouldn't want the temptation built into the game. For the same reason most developers don't include a God Mode toggle in the menu for their latest FPS...

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by RLacey

Isn't this a bit like asking for more first person shooters to be made without combat (and don't bring up Metroid Prime here, because I still maintain that it is an FPS, regardless of what you think )? Or maybe like asking for a football game where the match plays itself automatically?

I dunno. It just strikes me that if you want to remove all the actual gameplay because you don't like it then a) why not watch a film and b) why are you wanting to play adventure games?

I'm not asking to remove it. I appreciate that this overused and contrived type of puzzle has a lot of appeal for many people. No, I'm just asking to be given the ability to remove it for myself. I play adventure games for the story. Puzzles are obstacles to the story. If there is absolutely no interactivity other than the inventory puzzles (highly unlikely), and without that interactivity I can still appreciate the story, I won't mind one bit. I have nothing against film.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by RLacey

Anyway, this kind of option would be considered as cheating by a lot of people, and many of them wouldn't want the temptation built into the game. For the same reason most developers don't include a God Mode toggle in the menu for their latest FPS...

Couldn't the same argument be used against allowing the player to skip reflexive challenges?

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

I have nothing against film.

I'm loving your cheap insult through the crafty use of italics .

I'm still not quite following the reasoning for spending not insignificant amounts of money on a game only to remove half of the content that actually makes it a game rather than machinima. Do you level the same criticism of overused and contrived gameplay mechanics at other genres of game? Because, you know, RPGs would have this great, flowing story were it not for statistics management and battles...

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Couldn't the same argument be used against allowing the player to skip reflexive challenges?

Yes. If a reflexive challenge is considered to be important by the developers then I'm not actually a fan of letting you skip it. My complaints regarding these have always been about the bad design of those challenges, not their existence.

Of course, such challenges don't normally make up fifty per cent of the game (to pluck a figure from thin air), so it's not really a good comparison.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by RLacey

My complaints regarding these have always been about the bad design of those challenges, not their existence.

Same here. Applies to any kind of challenge, if it smells of boring, uninspired or plain bad design, of course.

Because, you know, RPGs would have this great, flowing story were it not for statistics management and battles...

BOING! I know, I linked to that in another thread already, but hey. If only each and every studio out there had a manifesto like that and would just care about making one of these "damned fine games", heheh.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by RLacey

I'm loving your cheap insult through the crafty use of italics .

I'm still not quite following the reasoning for spending not insignificant amounts of money on a game only to remove half of the content that actually makes it a game rather than machinima.

It's very simple- you're doing it because most adventure fans like inventory puzzles, but not all. Better to let that minority enjoy the game for the story than to beat 'em over the head with inventory puzzles for it. And I will again emphasize that being film is not the most terrible thing in the world. I hope you understand that this is an exaggeration- even if you take out the inventory puzzles, it still retains all the adventure game's strengths- the ability to control pacing, a stronger connection to the player, interactive dialogues, etc.

Do you level the same criticism of overused and contrived gameplay mechanics at other genres of game? Because, you know, RPGs would have this great, flowing story were it not for statistics management and battles...

I'm so glad you bring it up. Some RPGs have great battle systems. But only some. Many force you to sit through repetitive and unoriginal random battles for 95% of the time you're playing, just to pad out the length of the game. (I look forward eagerly to the day that RPGs learn how to rise above 8-bit thinking with their battle systems.) Once I was playing an RPG with a fantastic story and positively unbearable battles. (Much worse than most.) I was just about to give it up when I learned of a cheat that allowed me to skip every one of the battles. I couldn't believe how much fun the game suddenly was! So yes, ideally everyone should want to play the whole thing because it's designed so well that it's fun for everyone. But as long as it's not, the option should be given to shut off parts of the game which are frustrating but simply not fun at all to play.

[MoriartyL]

Oh, and one other comment: You wouldn't miss any of the game. You'd see everything that was programmed in there, as if a friend was sitting next to you playing them. You just wouldn't be playing it yourself. So you'd still be able to appreciate the cleverness of the puzzles, the characterization of the, um, character, and all that good stuff that inventory puzzles can offer. The part you're losing is only the frustration. (Don't tell me you'd be losing the mental challenge- I've tried these things, and my brain just isn't wired that way. So it's not a mental challenge, it's a frustrating impossibility.)

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

So yes, ideally everyone should want to play the whole thing because it's designed so well that it's fun for everyone. But as long as it's not, the option should be given to shut off parts of the game which are frustrating but simply not fun at all to play.

I'm sure that this is stuff publisher's dreams are made of. Such a game will never exist... Also, you make it sound as if game developers would deliberately put in stuff that's completely un-funny, frustrating, repetitive, etcpp, just for the heck of it. Or to piss players off. I dunno, I... just dunno.

The truth is: You don't like these obstacles some call inventory puzzles or battling your way through hordes of orcs or God knows what else. Get over it. So, sure, it's not as if including inventory management, toying around with plenty stuff, lateral thinking or battling orcs would be a requirement to make a damned fine game(TM). Besides, "Dreamfall" sounds indeed like your kind of thing. Tried it yet?

[MoriartyL]

Nope, my computer doesn't have the right specs. But understand that I'm not suggesting that games be made easier for those who like inventory puzzles. I'm just suggesting adding on, on top of whatever the game designers wanted to do, the option of watching it instead of playing it. I'm not saying to change the way they do things- I'm saying to put in something which really isn't all that hard to implement! A few basic rules (pick up everything in a room upon entering, use one item on another whenever possible), and the programming does it for you.

[Squinky]

But programmers are lazy.

[MoriartyL]

Okay, then, how about a smaller option: An automatic "take all". Even without solving the puzzles for you, that would be a tremendous help. And I don't see how anyone could object to that much.

[After a brisk nap]

If you don't mind adventure games being like movies, why don't you just ask someone to record a video of them playing the game, then watch that?

You would need neither to point nor click!

[Melanie68]

Or, find someone to play the game with and let them play the parts that frustrate you.