[kuddles]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

You know what? It's getting damn hard for me to defend this god forsaken genre. I love adventure games, I really do....however this has got to be the only genre where the past really IS better than the future. When the hell am I going to play the next big Monkey Island or King's Quest? No, not the damn IPs....let them rest, I'm talking in context here. When am I going to be able to play a NEW adventure game with interesting characters, a good plot and puzzles that are worth my time thinking about?

First of all, adventure gaming is stuck in a circular rut. Publishers don't think adventure games are worth buying, and practically all the developers making them are those left with severely limited budgets and are on the brink of closing their doors or being gobbled up by another company. When you're working under those contraints, would you take a risk? Waste time implementing a new gameplay technique that might end up turning people off? Charge full price for a game in a genre that nobody is buying? Innovation takes a budget, and only games with a substantial budget can try and take the genre in a new directions, and as the sales figures of Uru, Psychonauts, Indigo Prophecy, and Shadow of Destiny suggest, there's still no incentive for publishers or developers to continue taking those chances. I'm sure a lot of adventure game devs have considered multiple puzzle solutions, different story branches, real-time graphics, etc., but simply just don't have the resources to do it.

Second, a lot of your complaints are completely personal preferences. Personally, I have played quite a few adventure games that I thought were fantastic. You may have not liked the inventory puzzles in RTMI, but I thought they were brilliant, and there should be more like that. And I can tell you that I enjoyed Scratches much more than Grim Fandango, and Syberia much more than any Monkey Island game. It's your right to have an opinion, but I find it funny that you complain that the genre isn't trying anything new, and when people counter with examples of games that do try something new, you dismiss them as not working.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

I've already more or less said it, but since we're all repeating ourselves here, I might just as well go for it.

The problem with adventure games is the interplay between story and gameplay. They used to be gameplay-focused (i.e. focused on exploration/discovery and intellectual challenges), but with exploration came the need for story, which was at first just icing on the cake, until it started becoming a much more prevalent element.

And then some people thought that the right thing to do was to put more and more emphasis on the story, and (though why it should be a consequence of the first part is beyond me) limiting exploration (less hotspots, fewer conversation options...) and dumbing down puzzles.

So now, many adventure games are interactive, but can't justify their interactivity. They're games, but not fun to play as such. You're free to explore, except that there's nothing much to explore. You have control over your character, but absolutely can't change the course of the story.

For many years, many developpers have been doing the same stuff that led nowhere, wallowing in self-satisfied mediocrity. But I think it's changing, and I see three main directions:

1) Making 'games' which are not games anymore, but instead solely focused on story-telling and artistic merits, the gameplay being only a way to enhance the story-telling. I think this is what both Fahrenheit and Paradise are trying to do (and probably Dreamfall as well), though with different methods.

2) Returning to games that are actually fun to play as games. Kheops, with RTMI and Voyage, and TellTale are, I feel, going in that direction, and constantly improving.

3) Trying to make stories that are actually interactive. When I read that 'what makes the originality of Secrets of Da Vinci, apart from its plot, is the non-linear progression of the characters. As you progress in your quest, you have to choose between several branches, which means that each playthrough is different, and that several endings are possible', I do get interested.

Now, maybe you are not interested in those three directions. But at least I think people are now trying to do something with this genre.

So, instead of having yet another thread to bitch about stuff, what do you say we start discussing what we now want, what directions we'd like to see explored for adventure games?

Quoted because it's so true.

I'm tempted to say that there is waaay too much complaining around here, but then again, that's part of the charm.

As far as I'm concerned, though, the adventure genre is doing well, producing lame (Westerner, Mystery of the Mummy), average (Moment of Silence, Darkfall 2) and great (Still Life, Myst 4) games. I'm happy.

[Panthera]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

I said a mouthful on another forum, so I think I'll past it here.


What do these have in common? They are part of a genre thats having its ass kicked. I seriously have a hard time buying any adventure anymore, when the reviews aren't scaring me away the demos do a good job of it.

CSI - If that demo doesn't stop you from purchasing the game, you must be desperate.

Paradise - from the designer of Syberia. Nuff said.....boring story, no interaction, nothing but drab puzzles and slow moving characters. Hey, but its got nice backgrounds! Hoo boy! I thought adventure games were the one genre that didn't rely on graphics....

Crime Stories - Between the translation problems, straight forward gameplay and characters they expect you to know but can't unless your a native from its country....I don't know what to think on this one.

Scratches - I used to like wandering dank lonely locations, problem is Myst does it so well this game has little new to it. The demo kept me wandering the same rooms over and over again.....and it seems it gets no better from review impressions. Just what I needed, a game to force me to read a walkthrough or pull out my own teeth.

Dreamfall maybe be the only hope....but wait! Now we hear the added stealth and fight scenes are pointless and add nothing to the gameplay. Wonderful!

You know what? It's getting damn hard for me to defend this god forsaken genre. I love adventure games, I really do....however this has got to be the only genre where the past really IS better than the future. When the hell am I going to play the next big Monkey Island or King's Quest? No, not the damn IPs....let them rest, I'm talking in context here. When am I going to be able to play a NEW adventure game with interesting characters, a good plot and puzzles that are worth my time thinking about?

It really hurts when 10 or more adventure games come out in 2 months time and I only feel the need to buy one of them, simply out of hope. I think after I get Dreamfall I'm going to go back into dosbox and scummvm and play all the games I've missed, because at least they'll be new to me, AND worth my time.

Its nice to hope for a revival, but considering Indigo Prophecy was the only decent game to carry adventure elements in ages (and its not even in the truest sense of the word) I think I'm almost done caring. So lead on Dreamfall.....your the last real hope for this genre for me. I love other genres enough not to bother looking on the horizon of a genre that can only wow me 5 years between each game.

Your post always makes me feel bad for liking the adventuregames I do.. Like I'm really stupid, and don't know how to recognice a mediocre game when it's shoved up my nose..

I'm going to play CSI 3 when it's cheaper because I'm a sucker for the stories..
I'm anticipating Paradise, yes, becasue it's in a style I like, I really liked Syberia (not so much 2) and think Sokal does a good job. It's not bringing the genre forward, or bringing something new, but give him some slack. If this is how he wants to make AG's and he think's there's a market for it, why do he HAVE to reinvent the genre? What is wrong with making traditional AG's?

And Dreamfall have I been anticipating since I finished TLJ (witch was the first AG I played) and no bad review will make me not buy the game..

[fov]

Originally Posted by Panthera

Your post always makes me feel bad for liking the adventuregames I do.. Like I'm really stupid, and don't know how to recognice a mediocre game when it's shoved up my nose..

This conversation comes up again and again, and it always ends up making someone feel stupid for liking certain games.

I'm with the person who commented early on... just play the games you like, and don't bother with the ones you don't. 'Nuff said.

[BuGz]

uhm... is Indigo Prophecy that good?
I think Dreamfall will be cool, even though it prolly won't have any brain buster puzzles as I read in the ign review.

[Jackal]

Thanks, Kurufinwe. This post saves me a lot of trouble. (I'd quote it, but Ninth just did. )

"I don't want games to be like yesterday's, I don't want games to be like today's, I want them to be like tomorrow's!"

The problem with the sort of complaining in this thread is that it's so pointless. Demanding fresh and new and innovative gameplay on a regular basis is unrealistic. It's unrealistic of ANY genre, let alone one that typically finds itself hamstrung by budget. Besides, no one has any clue what "tomorrow" should like for adventures. A game like Indigo Prophecy was a breath of fresh air whose gameplay should never ever be repeated. No future there. Dreamfall falls back on some age-old action elements to spice things up. Hey, no problem, but it's not new, and doesn't add any more today than it ever did.

Honestly, I think some people should just drop the charade of pretending they actually like adventures anymore. It's no one's fault; it happens. You reach a stage where you've seen everything a genre has to offer, and it's not enough anymore. It's true of any genre one plays extensively. I used to love strategy games, but now I'm bored to death of them. It's true of other media, as well. It's true of other forms of entertainment. Maybe we should all bitch about our plastic army men because all they do is stand there? It was good enough as kids, but not now that we're older. So change the toys to adapt to our changing tastes, dammit! ... Or maybe we should just acknowledge that it's us that's changed, and maybe there's nothing actually wrong with the toys.

So you've outgrown the genre. What's the point of blaming the games for that? Can adventures be made better? Hell yeah! Can they be more progressive? In some ways. But as Kurufinwe's post nicely states, these things ARE happening. Slowly, yes, but surely, at last. If none of them are good enough, really that says as much about the player as the play.

[Jelena]

Originally Posted by colpet

It seems we always focus on what's wrong with today's adventures. For many of us, there's nothing wrong; we still have fun and anticipation with new releases. Games like Paradise and Scratches provide us with the entertainment we love.
Instead on focusing on changing existing adventures to suit your tastes, perhaps it's time to move on. Obviously many gamers here find nothing exciting with the new releases. So, find something you like to play. Don't carp and complain about what a game doesn't give you. Stop buying the stuff you don't like and focus on the games that interest you. There's so much talk about hybrids and other genres that encompass 'Adventure' elements that soon distinctions will be very blurry indeed.
I think that some gamers tastes evolve and change as they play games. They want something different every time - graphics, game play, storyline, etc. Those can be high expectations for any developer to fill. There's only so much you can change and still deliver the Adventure.

I agree!
I´ve only been on the forum since January (did no lurking before) and there are so much grumbling going on and on. I understand that a forum like this is the place where you really can dig deep into the topic. Many of the forumites are very articulate and loves the debate. I learn a lot about the genre and its history by reading your posts. But it amazes me that some people sort of gets stuck in the grumbling and complaining. If I was so disappointed with something I´d stop doing it and find myself something to enjoy instead.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Honestly, I think some people should just drop the charade of pretending they actually like adventures anymore.

That's entirely true, but then again if they did drop this pretense, then they probably would stop coming here, and that would make the discussion one-sided and boring.

[Jackal]

You think so? I find the same repetitive rhetorical arguments boring. I honestly wish there were more interesting threads about the games, themselves. Of course, that would require people actually PLAY them.

EDIT: Note that I'm not saying I wish people would leave. Though I honestly wonder why some people do stay, since they seem to hold the genre in such contempt. But there's still plenty of reason to have contructive debates. I just don't get the rants that don't really add much to anything.

[nrvllrgrs]

Adventure games are the foundation for all other games and without them no other genre would make sense. They are the story and meaning to any game. But, yes, adventure games are stuck because they aren't action-driven. Still I believe that there is still hope for pure adventure games. Given an evolution must occur, but it will happen. I have hope it will rise from fans and indie developers.

Besides that's what I'm going to school for. I would hate to have wasted so many years of my life for nothing.

[fov]

Originally Posted by Jackal

Maybe we should all bitch about our plastic army men because all they do is stand there?

This is the best quote ever.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Paradise - from the designer of Syberia. Nuff said.....boring story, no interaction, nothing but drab puzzles and slow moving characters. Hey, but its got nice backgrounds! Hoo boy! I thought adventure games were the one genre that didn't rely on graphics....

Well, I loved Syberia and Amerzone. Syberia is my #6 adventure game and I've played them for 16 years. So I'm looking forward to Paradise, thank you very much.

[JemyM]

What I liked with the adventure genré was that it sold on the story. I want a memorable experience. I want to laugh, I want to cry, I want to feel like I am in there with the characters. Few games offer that today and focus more on the actual "game" aspect than the "interactive story" concept.

But many genré's have shown that it's possible to deliver a nice story, even when the gamestyle suggest different.

Take First Person Shooters such as No One Lives Forever. Memorable characters, nice story, full of style. I do not let the genré FPS stop me from enjoying a such game. Or what about Call of Cthulhu or MYST V?

Take arcade-style adventures like Beyond Good and Evil, that frankly was awesome, packed by style & content. Or what about Fahrenheit?

What about semi-hack & slash "survival horror" adventures such as Silent Hill and Alone in the Dark?

It's the point & click / 2d games that's gone... The adventures are still out there for me. They are just called something else now and sometimes contain some buttonmashing, which doesnt effect me much when I run the game on easy.

[Steve Ince]

You know, my heart sinks a little each time I read a thread like this, not because people shouldn't complain, but because a part of me feels a little guilty for not providing the kind of adventures that people love to play. While I accept that The Sleeping Dragon wasn't to everyone's taste and some of the decisions made might have been a little ill-judged, I also feel for the other developers when their games are criticised. But whatever you do, don't stop complaining or we'll get complacent.

In a world with ever-tightening publisher funding, the chances of an adventure being created that can compete with multi-million-dollar blockbuster games is next to zero, which only compounds the vicious circle that such funding creates. So what do we have to offer the adventure player? What can we do within such a straight-jacketed regime? The only thing we can do is to maximise the resources we have to hand.

What this means is that, aside from a few bigger names, adventures are being put together by smaller teams who look for ways to give a rewarding experience to the player without the need to spend even hundreds of thousands of dollars. A good developer will learn to adapt and use those limitations to their advantage and give great gameplay that doesn't rely on expensive engines, tools and an army of animators. Perhaps some of them have only been making games in an era where such restrictions are a novelty and must now learn to explore what they can do within the limitations.

If adventure developers will rise to the challenge, I think that we'll see some exciting games, not because they are at the cutting edge of graphics and animation or have the sophisticated rendering techniques of Half-Life 2, but because they have quality gameplay. But most importantly, games that are developed by small, even one-man, teams will have a soul to them that 20 million dollars worth of effects will never have.

[Squinky]

If you're bored of commercial releases, you should play some amateur adventure games. Now THOSE are innovative!

(Unless, of course, you think amateur adventure games are poop because of their inferior production quality.)

[fov]

Originally Posted by Steve Ince

You know, my heart sinks a little each time I read a thread like this, not because people shouldn't complain, but because a part of me feels a little guilty for not providing the kind of adventures that people love to play.

But you have. Those people just aren't complaining.

[insane_cobra]

True, it's just that you can't please everybody.

[Lucien21]

Some people are never happy unless they are complaining.

[insane_cobra]

What you're saying is true, but then again, some people complain because something's actually bugging them, not because they're complain-a-holics.

[tabacco]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

What you're saying is true, but then again, some people complain because something's actually bugging them, not because they're complain-a-holics.

Yeah, but some people establish a bit of a trend.