[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

If I ever get around to developing a game, and I plan on doing just that, I'll choose what ever gameplay elements augment my general intention the best. No point in constraining oneself with genre boundaries. First there were games and then the genres formed around them - now some people think it should be the other way around.

I would kill if they started to ignore genres. Call me if you ever start a game as it sounds like something I would generally like to try.

I think its high time the pure adventure genre lied down and went to sleep. Maybe thats why I don't care anymore, its probably because so many blended games have shown me there is a better way to make these types of games.

[Kurufinwe]

I've already more or less said it, but since we're all repeating ourselves here, I might just as well go for it.

The problem with adventure games is the interplay between story and gameplay. They used to be gameplay-focused (i.e. focused on exploration/discovery and intellectual challenges), but with exploration came the need for story, which was at first just icing on the cake, until it started becoming a much more prevalent element.

And then some people thought that the right thing to do was to put more and more emphasis on the story, and (though why it should be a consequence of the first part is beyond me) limiting exploration (less hotspots, fewer conversation options...) and dumbing down puzzles.

So now, many adventure games are interactive, but can't justify their interactivity. They're games, but not fun to play as such. You're free to explore, except that there's nothing much to explore. You have control over your character, but absolutely can't change the course of the story.

For many years, many developpers have been doing the same stuff that led nowhere, wallowing in self-satisfied mediocrity. But I think it's changing, and I see three main directions:

1) Making 'games' which are not games anymore, but instead solely focused on story-telling and artistic merits, the gameplay being only a way to enhance the story-telling. I think this is what both Fahrenheit and Paradise are trying to do (and probably Dreamfall as well), though with different methods.

2) Returning to games that are actually fun to play as games. Kheops, with RTMI and Voyage, and TellTale are, I feel, going in that direction, and constantly improving.

3) Trying to make stories that are actually interactive. When I read that 'what makes the originality of Secrets of Da Vinci, apart from its plot, is the non-linear progression of the characters. As you progress in your quest, you have to choose between several branches, which means that each playthrough is different, and that several endings are possible', I do get interested.

Now, maybe you are not interested in those three directions. But at least I think people are now trying to do something with this genre.

So, instead of having yet another thread to bitch about stuff, what do you say we start discussing what we now want, what directions we'd like to see explored for adventure games?

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

I would kill if they started to ignore genres. Call me if you ever start a game as it sounds like something I would generally like to try.

I think its high time the pure adventure genre lied down and went to sleep. Maybe thats why I don't care anymore, its probably because so many blended games have shown me there is a better way to make these types of games.

So you would not like to see an adventure again like Grim or MI or whatever old games you love?
Dont you see, its because of the perception that people will find a pure adventure game boring, that we are getting these horribly mutated new style adventures. Yes some of them may be good.. Indigo prophecy for example, but i ask you... if things need to move on so badly, why did we all enjoy the classics so much? they are just as good now right? so saying we need to move away from that just doesnt make sense, and is why adventures suck today... because they are not being created with the same values, they are being created to be innovative, because supposedly they need to be otherwise they will be boring??? Was DOTT boring? was Grim boring? did they need "innovation", did they need fighting? did they need directx 9 graphics?

If pure/classic/traditional adventures are so bad and we need to progress away from them so badly. Why are we all here in the first place?

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

2) Returning to games that are actually fun to play as games. Kheops, with RTMI and Voyage, and TellTale are, I feel, going in that direction, and constantly improving.

I wanted to agree with you, until you put Voyage and Telltale in there. Voyage to me had useless puzzles that didn't engage me at all. I don't like having to hit 40 buttons until something happens.....and it also shared the very bad inventory dependancy that RTMI had. I actually liked RTMI, except that there were so few locations to actually explore, and it became a simple "click the item on every other item" bit. That essentially killed it for me.....but I did finish it.

Telltale seems to me like they want to be on the story 'path' that you mention. Bone didn't feel like I was doing much of anything except flipping pages of the book. It didn't help that bone itself is very uninteresting to me anyway.....

I do agree with your path theory though. Which one do I prefer? I don't have a flipping clue. When any of the three are done correctly I like them, hence why I even gave Indigo Prophecy the time of day. However I've not seen many in the second category that are worth playing anymore. I hope this changes.....because back with the incredibley challenging and full of explorating Quest days I had a blast. Its a shame that stem of genre gets the shaft in favour of "follow the bouncing story-line ball" games.

Originally Posted by Litrick

If pure/classic/traditional adventures are so bad and we need to progress away from them so badly. Why are we all here in the first place?

Do you see me complaining about the 'mutants' as you put them? I'm against the mediocre pure-genre games that have been released of late. If one actually bothered to be on the same scale as MI or Grim maybe I would care, but I don't know how anyone can play Syberia or Scratches and claim they are masterpieces even worth mentioning in the same sentence as those. I would rather they try new things, because at least IP was worth playing.....

[Dasilva]

Syberia 1 & 2 were good, you can't put those in the same sentance with Scratches.

[Cheerios]

The last "pure-adventure" game I played and truly enjoyed was Still Life, and even that I found the game's pacing to be a bit slow and repetitive.

I think that's one of the major downfalls of the "pure" adventure style (at least for me), is the sometimes mundane and boring elements. i.e. watching your character slooowwlyy walk across the entire area which you've been to like 20 times already... or trying conversation trees over and over until you get the correct one.

Yes we all still love the old school games, but I think most of these attempts at innovation stems from an effort to improve these bad elements of adventure games. Personally I think going 3D is a great platform because when you're exploring with your character, you feel much more involved than just watching a character walk across a static, 2D world. At least the world around you is moving... and that, for me, makes it interesting.

Examples of this would be the jump to full-time 3D rendered environments in the Resident Evil and Final Fantasy series, as opposed to the previous 2D, pre-rendered settings. When I first experienced FFX and RE4, I was amazed at how much of a difference the dynamic environments made. When the world around you comes to life, it's much easier to be more engaged in the game.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Dasilva

Syberia 1 & 2 were good, you can't put those in the same sentance with Scratches.

I haven't played 2 so I can't comment, by Syberia 1 to me (my opinion of course) was one of the bigger wastes of time I've had to endure. I played it through hoping it would get better, and it did a little.....only to end and basically should have said "If you want more, buy the sequel!". The whole premise was incredibly weak....the longest part of my gameplay was trying to hunt down some obscure thing I missed, only to further a story I could care less about in the first place. I also want to run that damn robot over with truck.......but then Kate and her damn phone conversations didn't help either.

The last "pure-adventure" game I played and truly enjoyed was Still Life, and even that I found the game's pacing to be a bit slow and repetitive.

I truly believe the only reason I gave Still-life the time of day was because I needed a new adventure game. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. In the span of the game nothing happened.....and the most interesting parts were played out in cut scenes. Don't get me started on the bad voice acting and the baking puzzle......and an ending that would make any lover of the genre cry.

[TheGreyMatter]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Of course, I'm not stupid. However isn't that the point of my post? There aren't enough good adventure games. How many bad ones versus good ones isn't a good excuse.....

it's not an excuse it's reality... you must understand that not you dictate which games will be out next year - the market forces dictate it.
as well you must understand that game companies dont wish to entertain you, but to make shitload of money (take a look at LucaStarwars)

and adventure games has less market -> less budget -> less professionals -> less games -> less quality games (by using my last post calculations).

Q.E.D

dont understand me wrong - I dont say it's should be like that, and I do not accept it, but you need to accept it or open your own AG studio .

[Litrick]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

I haven't played 2 so I can't comment, by Syberia 1 to me (my opinion of course) was one of the bigger wastes of time I've had to endure. I played it through hoping it would get better, and it did a little.....only to end and basically should have said "If you want more, buy the sequel!". The whole premise was incredibly weak....the longest part of my gameplay was trying to hunt down some obscure thing I missed, only to further a story I could care less about in the first place. I also want to run that damn robot over with truck.......but then Kate and her damn phone conversations didn't help either.



I truly believe the only reason I gave Still-life the time of day was because I needed a new adventure game. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. In the span of the game nothing happened.....and the most interesting parts were played out in cut scenes. Don't get me started on the bad voice acting and the baking puzzle......and an ending that would make any lover of the genre cry.

Yep, that whole subplot with her boyfriend cheating was just weak...

Anyway, I agree and disagree with you guys, i think it is good people are trying to do new things. But i also would love to see developers still trying to make great traditional style adventures, oh wait, Bone, Runaway 2, El Emmo... Sweet

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by TheGreyMatter

dont understand me wrong - I dont say it's should be like that, and I do not accept it, but you need to accept it or make your own AG studio .

You have no idea how damn much I want to do that and put and end to what I consider to be utter shit. However -

1) I couldn't run a business if I tried
2) The only thing I'd have any idea what to do is design work, planning and etc.....I wouldn't be able to do any actual work on the games.

So basically unless I took up a business course I don't expect to do this any time soon. Considering how little I want to throw everything I've got into a business venture I doubt it will ever happen.

[larrylaffer]

The reason why there are no good adventure games anymore (with the exception of a few rare gems) is quite simple. They have gone the same way as the music business, you buy a copy of Sugar Hill gangs 'Rappers delight' on 12 inch, you have got a 15 minute long record. That would be unheard of today.
The people who run the music and games industry seem to think that all we want is a quick adrenaline rush, a quick thrill something we can pick up,play and then leave 10 minutes later. They think guns=excitement, excitement= kerching!!! big moolah. Personally i am sick of seeing hey guys look its a fps...but with chickens!!!! or some such nonsense, i mean lets face it you play one, you played them all. I too long for the days of DOTT where i personally lost a good few hours playing it without realising it. However there is hope: Broken Sword the angel of darkness and a lot of the freeware adventures ( Crown of solomon case in point) are reviving a dying genre. It's jsut a shame so few people have the patience or time to actually play them.

[AdrianWerner]

I just want Paradise. Besides that this year is all about DarkMessiah, Heroes of Might and MagicV, Warhammer:Mark of Chaos and Medieval2 for me

And "defending the genre". It's not like all other genres are doing better. What about RPGs? THe overhyped Oblivion which has more to do with Redguard than Daggerfall. Where did the real good RPGs go? What about platformers? CHanged into some bizzare third-person shooters with furry animals. Fighters? No new good fighting IP in the last 5 years(at least on consoles, PC got MeltyBlood ). What I mean is that one can complain about almost every genre

[AdrianWerner]

Originally Posted by Dasilva

Have you read about the action? You don't have to fight every fight, and its jade empire meets Kotor style, which is good.

Considering that combat in JE sucked like hell and the one in KOTOR played like a boring version of BaldursGate2, I don't know if it's a good recommendation

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Voyage to me had useless puzzles that didn't engage me at all. I don't like having to hit 40 buttons until something happens....

If you think Voyage was about random hitting 40 buttons, I believe you didn't really give it a chance. http://forums.adventuregamers.com/sh...1&postcount=11

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Dont you see, its because of the perception that people will find a pure adventure game boring, that we are getting these horribly mutated new style adventures. Yes some of them may be good.. Indigo prophecy for example, but i ask you... if things need to move on so badly, why did we all enjoy the classics so much?

We've also enjoyed being a yellow circle in a labyrinth very much, but things have moved on. When playing the classics I'm willing to cut them some slack, but it's not like I can't see how they could be improved, gameplay-wise (that may or may not include puzzles, btw), were we to rebuild them with today's knowledge and technology. But when a brand new game still adhers to those exact same principles, I'm sorry, but I get a little disappointed. At best I feel like patting its head and saying "You're a fine little game, yes you are."

[Cheerios]

Originally Posted by larrylaffer

It's jsut a shame so few people have the patience or time to actually play them.

Shame indeed. With the hectic lifestyles of today's society, everyone is in this fast-paced mentality and are always looking for quick fixes. I think that's why these fast-twitch games are so appealing.

Most people I speak to would rather watch a movie or read a book for quality storytelling. For some reason, anything that's a "videogame" is labeled as a waste of time to them

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

1) I couldn't run a business if I tried
2) The only thing I'd have any idea what to do is design work, planning and etc.....I wouldn't be able to do any actual work on the games.

Welcome to the field of game design, my friend.

It still requires a lot of work, though. A lot of work.

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by larrylafer

The people who run the music and games industry seem to think that all we want is a quick adrenaline rush, a quick thrill something we can pick up,play and then leave 10 minutes later. They think guns=excitement, excitement= kerching!!! big moolah. Personally i am sick of seeing hey guys look its a fps...but with chickens!!!! or some such nonsense, i mean lets face it you play one, you played them all.

Alright, a large chunk of games published are pretty - how should I put it - shallow.This holds true to adventure games as well. Very, very much so.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

First there were games and then the genres formed around them - now some people think it should be the other way around.

A man after me own heart.

Seriously, avatar_58, if you have already spent so much time (years even?) looking for that one adventure game(TM) that might come close to these ancient favourite adventure games(TM) of yours (and still haven't found it!), chances are you're never going to find it.

[colpet]

It seems we always focus on what's wrong with today's adventures. For many of us, there's nothing wrong; we still have fun and anticipation with new releases. Games like Paradise and Scratches provide us with the entertainment we love.
Instead on focusing on changing existing adventures to suit your tastes, perhaps it's time to move on. Obviously many gamers here find nothing exciting with the new releases. So, find something you like to play. Don't carp and complain about what a game doesn't give you. Stop buying the stuff you don't like and focus on the games that interest you. There's so much talk about hybrids and other genres that encompass 'Adventure' elements that soon distinctions will be very blurry indeed.
I think that some gamers tastes evolve and change as they play games. They want something different every time - graphics, game play, storyline, etc. Those can be high expectations for any developer to fill. There's only so much you can change and still deliver the Adventure.

[phankiejankie]

Originally Posted by Litrick

Was Grim boring? did they need "innovation", did they need fighting? did they need directx 9 graphics?

Sorry but many "purists" of the times nailed Grim for being too innovative and not a point and click adventure. Actually the reason why its sales were that bad it was because the word of mouth advertising at first wasn’t very supportive... Luckily one of the best games of the century (exclusively my opinion), like misunderstood artists after their death, received the recognition it deserved.