[insane_cobra]

A matter of taste. I know most people like it, I don't. But this is not a thread for discussing Dark City.

[entranced]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Still, this is the first time I've seen anyone mention any similarities between Dark City and Fahrenheit, and it's not like it's an obscure movie. I'm anxiously awaiting that thread of yours.

Look a little harder.

Edit: Oh and don't worry, I will be putting together that thread some time next week.

[Rowne]

What I find most unfortunate is that Fahrenheit is a game of imagination. I loved it because it was rather demented, it invited a person to think outside of the box. It was quite the Dali-work in game format and definitely required a level of subjectivity on part of the viewer. It wasn't something that you could simply switch your brain and imagination off for, you couldn't let the little hints slip by, ignoring them completely. If you did, you'd get the kind of result where everything seems to be disjoined and nonsensical.

It's something that I personally believe one has to put a little thought into. To be honest, I saw a lot of the end coming before it hit, which is why I was more generous towards the game than most are. I tend to play a scene, listening closely and then I'll sit back and give it some thought. I'd pondered carefully over the nature of Lucas' powers and I used my own intellect to fill in some of the plot holes.

Questions like; "OMG, how does Lucas have Kung-fu skillz?!" were pretty obvious to me. The guy, before the murder, was obviously pretty talented. He was in good shape so it's possible he oft visited a Dojo and had a black-belt years before the beginning point of the story even occurred. It wouldn't be completely unacceptable. Yet I know of a person who's musically inclined, a geek and happens to be skilled in forms of self-defense. So it didn't take a stretch of the imagination for me there, since I had a point of relativity.

Now then, the AI ...

Most of it's already been pointed out, there were obvious clues. The Crows seemed to have some kind of iconic imagery to the Purple clan, they were used as scouts by said clan and used to spy on Lucas. Wherever Lucas went, there was a Crow there watching him. Now this leads me to believe that the Purple clan orchestrated Agatha from the ground up, allowing Marcus to find her. It seems to fit the evidence.

The whole "Death of Agatha" thing was likely acted out in order to further tighten our protagonist's loyalty to their avatar.

There is the theory that the Purple clan didn't occupy Agatha until the very last encounter or until she died but given a little thought to the clues, this doesn't make sense. The way the story plays out in my mind is that Agatha was always an agent of the Purple clan. Perhaps she was a real person at one point before she was incorporated, they simply picked someone similar to who they'd need.

If they did occupy Agatha at her death, why did they pick Crows so early on to monitor Lucas? I think that Agatha was part of the Purple clan's "resources" and that the Crows are something iconic to that clan.

So, moving along ...

Another poster here was correct in pointing out that there are members of the Purple clan (possibly multiple AIs) talking about how they're going to heal Lucas. This isn't so much a dream as a semi-conscious state for Lucas, that's how I imagined it anyway. Basically it's at this point that they're "rebuilding" him. Actually, if you listen closely they even talk of the implant they've put in him to force him to obey. They mention something of a forced neural node or somesuch.

My opinion also differs on the "zombie" front. I don't think that's true of Lucas at all. It's already apparent that this is set quite a bit into the future by the computers, they definitely look a few years on from our capabilities. Given secret research andsoforth I can't help but wonder if the Purple clan hasn't stolen incredible tech from both companies and the American Government.

My theory is that they used some kind of medical nanotech to sustain him. Something that slowly rebuilt his body from the inside, repairing any damage they found. He already had an inner-power thanks to the Chroma so it wasn't such a stretch for them probably to use this nanotech and their knowledge of the Chroma to heal him completely.

The neural node thingy is how they try to control him later but my theory here is that his natural connection to the Chroma helps him resist this influence. I strongly suspect that their capabilities are a mix of technology bound with Chroma (whereas those of the Orange clan are ancient Magicks bound with Chroma), so on some instinctive level, via some connection Lucas was able to stave off the attacks (at least if one was a good enough button-tapper to do so).

Another theory I disagree with is that somehow the Purple clan's avatar 'manifested' itself from the internet. That would suggest that the Purple clan have no connections outside of the internet, I find this a bit silly. After all, if they're willing to manipulate Lucas then they're very likely willing to do so with other humans, promising them positions of power or whatever they might desire in exchange for their services. They might have plants in all manner of businesses and the Government helping them pull off the heists I mentioned earlier.

Considering the name of the avatar seems to be 'The Cyborg', I'd rather think that this is the case and again, this is experimental technology bound to the Chroma in order to make it more powerful (or perhaps even to realize it, if the technology was there but not a powersource powerful enough to ... well, power it).

Also, I agree with those that say that the Chroma was something that was discovered. It seems to be viewed as something of a "fountain", like a natural spring. Something that was found in an expedition, an archeological dig as it were. It was uncovered and then quickly hushed up by the Government so that it could be studied in secret, since they had absolutely no idea what it was and a glowing hole / puddle of unknown depth might create panic amongst the human masses if this knowledge became public.

With all this in mind, play it again and the end will probably make more sense. Lucas Kane probably knows some form of self-defense and uses that instinctively with the Chroma (there's no saying that the Chroma can't be some kind of purely instinctive force with a base - yet not true - sentience of its own). The Purple Clan have resources beyond the internet and have learned how to mix experimental technology with the Chroma. The Crows monitor Lucas's progress so that the Purple Clan might keep tabs on him and Agatha was simply an item within their "resources".

These are my theories and they're probably why I enjoyed the game more than most. I'm a very introspective and reflective person. I don't play things much without pausing often to sit back and really think about what I've encountered. I don't think the end of the game was so unreasonable at all. Demented, yes. Unreasonable, no.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Rowne

Questions like; "OMG, how does Lucas have Kung-fu skillz?!" were pretty obvious to me. The guy, before the murder, was obviously pretty talented. He was in good shape so it's possible he oft visited a Dojo and had a black-belt years before the beginning point of the story even occurred. It wouldn't be completely unacceptable. Yet I know of a person who's musically inclined, a geek and happens to be skilled in forms of self-defense. So it didn't take a stretch of the imagination for me there, since I had a point of relativity.

I don't know about the others, but I never thought it didn't make sense for him to become a kung fu master all of a sudden (he's the "Chosen One", anything goes), but that it was incredibly lame.

Now then, the AI ...

Most of it's already been pointed out, there were obvious clues. The Crows seemed to have some kind of iconic imagery to the Purple clan, they were used as scouts by said clan and used to spy on Lucas. Wherever Lucas went, there was a Crow there watching him. Now this leads me to believe that the Purple clan orchestrated Agatha from the ground up, allowing Marcus to find her. It seems to fit the evidence.

The whole "Death of Agatha" thing was likely acted out in order to further tighten our protagonist's loyalty to their avatar.

There is the theory that the Purple clan didn't occupy Agatha until the very last encounter or until she died but given a little thought to the clues, this doesn't make sense. The way the story plays out in my mind is that Agatha was always an agent of the Purple clan. Perhaps she was a real person at one point before she was incorporated, they simply picked someone similar to who they'd need.

If they did occupy Agatha at her death, why did they pick Crows so early on to monitor Lucas? I think that Agatha was part of the Purple clan's "resources" and that the Crows are something iconic to that clan.

On the other hand, if Agatha was on the Purples' side from the beginning and they were watching Lucas, why did they wait for him to commit a murder before starting to act? For all we were told, Lucas is chosen by Oracle as his tool completely at random (in fact, only because "the chroma is strong with this one" he manages not to descend into total madness, which is something Oracle and his brethren had been expecting to happen). If the Purples had been aware of Kane's uniqueness while Oranges hadn't, why not try to acquire such a powerful ally much earlier?

Also, I got the feeling that Marcus had known Agatha for years. Given that he doesn't seem like a believer in parapsychology (just look how he treats his brother's revelations), keeping relationship with Marcus hoping he will tell Lucas about her after he, one day, confesses to killing someone, having been randomly chosen by the Oracle the night before, would be the most ludicrous plan ever not thought up by Wile E. Coyote.

Finally, I'd argue that faking Agatha's death would be a ridiculous way to make Lucas felt more attached to her. She hadn't even really told him anything by the time she was killed! And I don't know about you, but I'd be more suspicious of dead people helping me than the living ones.

You say there were "obvious clues", and earlier in your post, "little hints", that we all were too stupid to notice; could you provide examples here? Yes, I've seen the omnipresent crows (it'd be hard to miss them), but what about them revealed they were spies of an advanced AI? (Or that there exists any second clan at all?) As far as I could tell, there wasn't any hint that computer science in the game's world is any more advanced than in ours.

[Rowne]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I don't know about the others, but I never thought it didn't make sense for him to become a kung fu master all of a sudden (he's the "Chosen One", anything goes), but that it was incredibly lame.

I can't and won't argue with you there, to be honest it would've been better if he'd manifested the Chroma in some other way, if it were only the ability to run really fast and jump rather high. To simply bust into Kung-fu for the sake of an action sequence was a bit cheap.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

On the other hand, if Agatha was on the Purples' side from the beginning and they were watching Lucas, why did they wait for him to commit a murder before starting to act? For all we were told, Lucas is chosen by Oracle as his tool completely at random (in fact, only because "the chroma is strong with this one" he manages not to descend into total madness, which is something Oracle and his brethren had been expecting to happen). If the Purples had been aware of Kane's uniqueness while Oranges hadn't, why not try to acquire such a powerful ally much earlier?

The Purple Clan are based off technology. One of the boons of technology I'd say is that it can be incredibly patient, according to the official releases regarding the Purple Clan, they've been around a very long time. So I gather they've simply been waiting and watching, using their spies to gather information since information is the most powerful of resources.

This also makes sense to me because in this way, the Purple Clan only really has to step in at the very last moment. Had the player believed Agatha then they would've gained the player's trust from information alone. That's how I choose to believe they work and that at the end, they simply had to step in because waiting, watching and passive manipulation wouldn't actually solve anything there.

Perhaps it's the actions of the Orange Clan which leaves the Purple Clan with the belief that organics are an inferiour race, always too ready to prove their dominance due to some biological urge. Never bothering to actually take the time to think things through and plan carefully. I'd also say that greed wouldn't be one of their failings either so whilst they built up logical resources, since they already had the Chroma they saw no need to actually acquire a bio-form with Chroma capabilities, early on they simply only saw the need to monitor him to ensure that he didn't become a threat.

The problem I perceive with your questions is that human failings are being stapled to the Purple Clan, such as second-guessing, greed, the need to actually prove something (rather than stepping in and simply making it so when the time is right) and so on. I'd say that aside from being somewhat malign, the Purple Clan are actually beings based more on cold logic than anything else.

I'll leave that one for you to think about, the Purple Clan already had their own digital avatars capable of utilizing the Chroma, they only manipulate the bio-forms when it suits their ends. They have as little interaction with them as possible and only use them via base manipulation so they won't have to overly deal with managing them. Much like a mysterious crime boss might (ever seen the radio in City of Villains that has a radio show that offers work to the aspiring villain?).

So in my opinion, I can counter that question with another question: Why would a computer-level intellect bother owning something when it could simply manipulate that something and the circumstances to meet its needs? Of course, due to the Chroma, Lucas wasn't see easy to manipulate but since they'd never encountered a human with the Chroma, it was an easy miscalculation on their part. And that's my answer.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Also, I got the feeling that Marcus had known Agatha for years. Given that he doesn't seem like a believer in parapsychology (just look how he treats his brother's revelations), keeping relationship with Marcus hoping he will tell Lucas about her after he, one day, confesses to killing someone, having been randomly chosen by the Oracle the night before, would be the most ludicrous plan ever not thought up by Wile E. Coyote.

Then opposedly it's possible that they acquired Agatha still before Lucas met her but in the time that Marcus was searching for her. What I'm suggesting is that in this somewhat more future era, there's probably another version of Echelon or some World-wide wiretapping network in place and I'd find it frankly a bit silly if the Purple Clan couldn't get access to it. Opposedly I'd imagine they'd be quite merrily monitoring every call in the World.

Now either they created Agatha as a fictional avatar or simply occupied her at that point and allowed for Marcus to find her in a way he'd find believable. As I said, they are a World-wide intellect that's able to travel anywhere within the digital or physical World at whim so they can't exactly be comprehended on the same level as a couple of humans (even powerful humans). So they create/acquire Agatha and then string along a story for Marcus to believe that through investigation he's managed to find a person who'd help.

That I could personally find believable.

I never really found anything in the game that suggested that Marcus had known Agatha for years, that's just down to opinion and your opinion and mine differ at this point. My imagination tells me that out of desperation, Marcus immediately began researching and asking any friends or even believers of multiple faiths he might've known from his time working at the Church for any leads.

This ties back into the ponderance: If they acquired Agatha, why not acquire Lucas? As I said, they already had their own Chroma-beings but they wanted to keep him monitored and very possibly manipulated. They knew he was a bit of a wild-card which was why they'd rather that not try to acquire him but simply ensure that either he stays out of their way or does their work for them. This would also explain why and how Agatha was so able and ready to provide information about the Orange Clan.

Though due to their position, the Purple Clan likely couldn't give Marcus too much information so they gave him hints instead, just things to point him in the right direction (towards the Orange) and away from them.

I enjoy letting these scenarios play out in my mind to help fill any gaps I might've found and that's how I personally explain the questions you've asked.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Finally, I'd argue that faking Agatha's death would be a ridiculous way to make Lucas felt more attached to her. She hadn't even really told him anything by the time she was killed! And I don't know about you, but I'd be more suspicious of dead people helping me than the living ones.

I don't think I explained my theories surrounding Agatha's death thouroughly enough, so allow me to extrapulate a little further.

I think that faking her death was exactly the thing they needed to do. Lucas already knew he had a powerful foe following him and he knew that whomever he got too close to would be in danger. So they faked her death leaving Lucas to believe that it was the Orange Clan who killed her (a reasonable assumption). This would raise Lucas' hatred towards the Orange Clan and tie in perfectly with everthing I've already said above.

Further, Agatha after this point becomes a spirit, something ethereal that the Orange Clan likely can't touch. She came back from the brink of total annihilation after the Orange Clan supposedly killed her. Now Lucas might see this as a Get Out of Jail Free card. What I mean by that is that suddenly he has this mentor who seems to be completely unkillable, of course he's going to look to her for advice because anyone else he might look to for help might wind up the same way. It's the kind of worry over Marcus that left him how he was I believe halfway through the game.

* Rowne takes a deep breath ...

So I'm not suggesting that Agatha was simply killed in a mugging or something foolish like that but that the Purple Clan wanted to make it look like it was all a plot by the Orange Clan to leave him without any aid or resources, Lucas would become weaker due to this and he'd look towards anything that was obviously against the Orange Clan. It seemed obvious to me (subjectively) that his state of mind was as thus since he did willingly accept any and all aid from Agatha right up until the end, where he only begun to become suspicious.

Hell, if the player was more trusting, he might not have been suspicious at all and thusly handed the Indigo Child right over to them. "Beautiful bit of manipulation there, chaps. Well done!"

>> Continued in the next post.

[Rowne]

>> Continued from the previous post.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

You say there were "obvious clues", and earlier in your post, "little hints", that we all were too stupid to notice;

I think you're misunderstanding me ... I said that there were hints there that I spent the time reflecting upon that others might've ignored. I doubt many people will have spent the time contemplating on every little conversation within the chapter after every chapter. I'd imagine that such incredible procrastination is purely a failing of m yown. I tend to slow things down and put things off with too much thinking, which means it takes me a hell of a long time to get through a game. Considering how quickly most people complete games, I'm sure that it's not commonly found.

I had not meant to imply any stupidity because you're quite obviously and frankly not. You've provided a clear, astute and very well reasoned argument to my own views. Nor would I say that anyone else here is stupid. All I tried to imply was that perhaps I gave more thought to the little pieces of information per chapter than the average gamer might have. That doesn't imply a greater intellect, it simply implies that I have a little more patience and a grasp of the not so great art of procrastination. And nothing more than that.

That was an incorrect implication made from my words and in my name and I wished to correct it because the assumption it was based on is simply not true. Read what I've said and I'm sure you'll see that it's consistent with the two paragraphs above. I'm not always so good at conveying myself, I know that and that's my fault. I hope now that it's more clear.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

could you provide examples here? Yes, I've seen the omnipresent crows (it'd be hard to miss them), but what about them revealed they were spies of an advanced AI? (Or that there exists any second clan at all?)

Who might say they would have to be? This is simply something I ascertained after much thought, after having completed the game about ... oh, four times. By the first time I saw Agatha my initial reaction was something like this:

"Hey, it's Agatha, the Crow-Master! What the hell? Has she been watching over me or spying on me? She certainly likes to keep herself updated by sending her pets to peep on me, even when I'm almost naked! Dirty old woman."

This slowly built into the realization that Agatha has been either occupied or created (as I said) by the Purple Clan. It all seems to click, this might not click for you because half of this evidence is speculation and subjective (as I keep pointing out) but from my point of view, that's what seems to make sense. I'm also saying that every person can easily have their own view of this that would also make sense, there's no reason for it not to. I found that often Star Trek would have bigger plot holes than Fahrenheit and it was fun finding sensible ways to fill them, it was more fun and inventive than whining about them. Yet whining is any person's right, I'm just not like that.

In other words, I parsed every bit of information I could from playing through a number of times, from both the beginning and the end of the game and eventually everything began to click. There are certainly other things that taught me to do this. One of them was Akira that made absolutely no sense at all on the first watch through. Yet since I didn't particularly feel like being left in the dark, I watched it a few more times and carefully took note of any information I was given. Even without the wealth of information that was in the comic, I managed to slowly piece things together. It's this kind of investigative work that I enjoy.

I personally don't see what's so very wrong with that ...

(Edit: I felt a little persecuted here since apparently I was calling stupid just because I believe I spend more time sitting back and thinking things over than the average gamer might. It's also likely that I'm wrong to feel that way, so you can strike that last sentence if you like.)

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

As far as I could tell, there wasn't any hint that computer science in the game's world is any more advanced than in ours.

The simple fact that they'd upgraded all the doors in the Asylum from manual locking mechanisms to electronic mechanisms controlled by a central computer "years ago" didn't tip this off? That was one of the little pieces of information dropped that lead me to believe that the game is set a little bit in the future because I don't believe that any Asylum's in today's World would use a locking mechanism that isn't managed manually by heavy bolts.

That might be a failing on my part though and it's simply subjectively how I see things. I approve of the fact that you have your own opinions, it means you took the time to think things through. I won't challenge that you have a different opinion to me either, I'm just presenting my opinions and the innermost workings of my brain for your entertainment. Every story can be told a thousand different ways. I think the only crime truly is in claiming that a story's wholly broken and unfixable.

--- Edit ---

Also, aside from the Asylum comment regarding my personal belief that it's set a little into the future; doesn't it seem as if Lucas's work computer (in the Bank) is just a little bit too advanced to be today's technology? He has five wafer-thin monitors there, all hooked up to what seems to be a Linux variant. I think most people today would die for a computer setup like that and I've not seen one, not even in a place of work.

It's things like that that tip my opinion towards it being set a little into the future.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Rowne

I think you're misunderstanding me ...

Oh, I wasn't trying to be defensive, if that's what it looked like. Neither was I offended by your post, nor did I think you were trying to brag about your intellect. That's just my fault - overusing irony while underusing smileys. Sorry you felt "persecuted".

I should have expressed the "too stupid to notice" part differently. My point was exactly the same as what you said in your most recent post: that fixing the plotholes here is mostly based on speculation. It's hard for me to believe that these deliberations were actually considered by the developers, and for me it is a narrative crime. Don't get me wrong; I enjoy not being spoon-fed all details of the story and figuring out stuff by myself. But as soon as I feel (this, too, is of course highly subjective) that doing so requires being smarter than the writers were, I feel cheated.

Back to the specifics:

The Purple Clan are based off technology. One of the boons of technology I'd say is that it can be incredibly patient, according to the official releases regarding the Purple Clan, they've been around a very long time. So I gather they've simply been waiting and watching, using their spies to gather information since information is the most powerful of resources.

But that's still working under assumption that they somehow knew Lucas' forces will eventually be catalyzed by the diner murder. But Oracle chose him by accident! (or do you think his choice was somehow affected by the Purple clan?)

This also makes sense to me because in this way, the Purple Clan only really has to step in at the very last moment. Had the player believed Agatha then they would've gained the player's trust from information alone.

That's another problem. On my first (and only, for now at least) playthrough, I knew I shouldn't give the Indigo Child to Agatha. The whole setting of that scene: music, camera work, dialogue, told me that. But Lucas had no way of knowing. Now, I had accepted the convention than I'm playing out an interactive film rather than playing as the character, so that in itself didn't bother me much. However, I realized that the trap has been set to catch me, not Lucas, who never showed any doubt about Agatha's good will. So these cyborg beings, despite relying on cold logic, assumed that Kane will simply collaborate with them asking no questions at all.

I'm sure I'm babbling in the above paragraph, but that was something which really bothered me. Maybe I'll find a better way to express myself later.

So in my opinion, I can counter that question with another question: Why would a computer-level intellect bother owning something when it could simply manipulate that something and the circumstances to meet its needs? Of course, due to the Chroma, Lucas wasn't see easy to manipulate but since they'd never encountered a human with the Chroma, it was an easy miscalculation on their part. And that's my answer.

It seems more than a miscalculation. If the AI accepted the possibility of him escaping all the supposedly powerful Oracle's attempts at killing him (and if they hadn't, they wouldn't even bothered to have him on their side), they must have expected Lucas to be able to stand against their clan as well.

Then opposedly it's possible that they acquired Agatha still before Lucas met her but in the time that Marcus was searching for her. (...) That I could personally find believable.

Yes, this timing makes the most sense, I believe. It also fits the peculiar design of Agatha's house. Its emptiness, and sheet-covered pieces of furniture, might have been a clue that nobody really lives there. This has just crossed my mind.

I never really found anything in the game that suggested that Marcus had known Agatha for years

You're right. I mistakenly thought that Marcus tells Lucas about her on their first meeting in the park, but I checked that that's not true in the meantime.

This ties back into the ponderance: If they acquired Agatha, why not acquire Lucas? As I said, they already had their own Chroma-beings but they wanted to keep him monitored and very possibly manipulated. They knew he was a bit of a wild-card which was why they'd rather that not try to acquire him but simply ensure that either he stays out of their way or does their work for them. This would also explain why and how Agatha was so able and ready to provide information about the Orange Clan.

The thing is, she doesn't tell him practically anything on his first visit. There we have another flaw in the plan: assuming our hero will decide to return to her (and, in fact, be alive to make such a decision).

Also, aside from the Asylum comment regarding my personal belief that it's set a little into the future; doesn't it seem as if Lucas's work computer (in the Bank) is just a little bit too advanced to be today's technology? He has five wafer-thin monitors there, all hooked up to what seems to be a Linux variant. I think most people today would die for a computer setup like that and I've not seen one, not even in a place of work.

It's things like that that tip my opinion towards it being set a little into the future.

Oh, no doubt about that it's set in the future. But a future familiar enough for a yellow polygonal guy to feel out of place. If I've seen Lucas' computer in real life tomorrow, I'll probably say "Cool stuff. Must be expensive.", unlike a person hibernated for the last 50 years, who'd probably exclaim "What the heck is that?" because of the culture shock. If you've played Deus Ex,

Spoiler:

that game had a near-Godly AI introduced late in the game, but with hard sci-fi elements like nanotechnology and man-machine hybrids and robot guards being common in the game's setting, I felt prepared for that.

[Rowne]

This is filled with many, many spoilers. Anyone who hasn't played Fahrenheit yet may wish to avoid this post. The spoilers are really too integrated to wrap spoiler tags around without simply putting every reply in spoiler tags and that might be annoying.

Sorry to necro-thread but discussing admittedly hole-ridden storylines is a personal favourite past-time of mine.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Oh, I wasn't trying to be defensive, if that's what it looked like. Neither was I offended by your post, nor did I think you were trying to brag about your intellect. That's just my fault - overusing irony while underusing smileys. Sorry you felt "persecuted".

Perhaps persecuted was too strong of a word. It's just that I've often noticed that if a person claims that they've spent time being cerebral in regards to something, it can often be misconstrued as stating that the person is saying that another is lacking. This kind of misinterpretation is a bad one and one I've encountered before so unlike you, I am a bit defensive over it. Of course, what I hadn't realized in my defensiveness is that you were being gleefully facetous and joking. I'd not have been defensive had I known that, I don't always catch the meanings of things purely through text without narrative, sometimes it is difficult to do so.

My apologies too then for being more defensive than I ought to have been.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

But as soon as I feel (this, too, is of course highly subjective) that doing so requires being smarter than the writers were, I feel cheated.

I agree with that. I think it's something that's subjective and highly relative to the person who's considering their entertainment, it's down a lot to how critical a person is. Myself, I can be far more forgiving of a bad story than I can of say, bad game mechanics. Regardless of how good a story is, if an adventure game is chafingly difficult to move around in or if the puzzles are nauseatingly nonsensical then I can find myself feeling negatively towards the game.

So I understand where you're coming from. It's all about the tolerance point for each person in each respective area.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

But that's still working under assumption that they somehow knew Lucas' forces will eventually be catalyzed by the diner murder. But Oracle chose him by accident! (or do you think his choice was somehow affected by the Purple clan?)

It is supposition, purely. That's something I wish to get out of the way immediately.

The theory I pose is that due to their intensive integration into the global network, they were already aware of the Chroma source near where Lucas enjoyed the not-so-carefree or halycone days of his youth. Considering that they knew this and with their access to numerous classified reports over the years, through any level of security, mix that in with the caches of mythological knowledge that can be found around the internet; I surmise that they pieced together how a human can become "infected" with the Chroma.

After studying records and deciding which humans are affected, they dispatch their Crows to do spying on these humans. What really would've helped is if the developers had placed a Crow or two at the army base. Perhaps though they didn't have that kind of technology at their command at the time to be able to do that (I'll come back to this later).

In other words then, the AI have a database of any entities infected with the Chroma and this would seem pertinent for them because they come across as very competent at what they do. After all, they seemed to know more than the Orange Clan all along. Consider this; The Orange Clan probably had to send emails and memos over electrical lines, even the Oracle proved that he was rather fond of phonecalls (and I must admit, seeing magicks being casted over a phoneline was possibly one of the most wonderfully absurd, demented and amusing things I'd seen in any storyline, I loved it).

So the Purple Clan already likely had any knowledge that the Ornage Clan did, plus anything that the Governments knew, plus anything that people who kept files on their computers knew, plus all myths regarding the Chroma.

I have another supposition which I'd like to share with you; the Crow was monitoring Lucas even before the murder. We already know that there was a Crow present in the crime-scene but what if the fly-by at the very start of the game was actually from the eyes of the Crow as it was dispatched to spy on both Lucas and the Orange Clan, since such a gathering of both an uninitiated man of the Chroma and one of their enemies was something that they'd want to observe and keep tabs on, it might've boded ill for them.

I admit, I'm pulling a lot out of my arse here but I like fixing up storylines like thi swith the most likely solutions by piecing together the bits of information that're there, I think this strings together things in a believable way but how solid my theories are is a purely subjective thing and everyone is welcome to take them at face value or dismiss them. My theories stand as no better than any others and it's just as likely that I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

That's another problem. On my first (and only, for now at least) playthrough, I knew I shouldn't give the Indigo Child to Agatha. The whole setting of that scene: music, camera work, dialogue, told me that. But Lucas had no way of knowing. Now, I had accepted the convention than I'm playing out an interactive film rather than playing as the character, so that in itself didn't bother me much. However, I realized that the trap has been set to catch me, not Lucas, who never showed any doubt about Agatha's good will. So these cyborg beings, despite relying on cold logic, assumed that Kane will simply collaborate with them asking no questions at all.

As a reply to that paragraph alone (if I may), I offer the proposal that our friends of the Purple Clan were simply that arrogant. If I am right and they had manipulated humans in the past, through promises of wealth, power and so on, they probably expected Kane to be just another simple-minded sheep of the world-wide cattle.

So I'd put that purely down to the realization that the AI believed that the human race was little more than cattle or less than that, an infestation, not really worth the time considering as a truly sentient race. From my perspective this seemed their failing at the end of the game because from their attitude, I gathered that they genuinely believed that a human of the Chroma was no match for a machine of the Chroma.

One other thing to consider regarding that scene is that Lucas was under great duress, he'd been chased and had kill attempts made on his life, he'd curled up in a bundle near Marcus convinced that he was losing his mind. For an everyday man in that situation (who's likely not a geek like us), he probably wanted an easy answer. He might've liked the window of oppurtunity presented for him to set all this behind himself and walk away, just to walk away and try to live his life again. That did seem to be what Agatha was offering.

She offered to take the child and keep it safe away from the Orange clan. She offered this to a man at the end of his rope. It might ... just might be a very convincing offer, to such a man.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

It seems more than a miscalculation. If the AI accepted the possibility of him escaping all the supposedly powerful Oracle's attempts at killing him (and if they hadn't, they wouldn't even bothered to have him on their side), they must have expected Lucas to be able to stand against their clan as well.

My theory still stands with statements made by the AI at the end of the game, they sound like a very arrogant race. I suspect that the AI viewed the humans as simple Rats running around in a maze, a maze that they were manipulating. The Rats could fight each other but surely they'd have no chance of standing against them. Even if the humans could stand against them, they certainly had enough thouroughly and logically planned contingencies to deal with it. They were infallible machines, the next race. There was absolutely no way they could lose to a lowly human, right? Humans were just resources to be used at their whim and to be done away with when they were no longer nessescary.

That's how I envision the entirety of the Purple Clan as being, they seem to have something of a megalomaniacal/God complex and as with any being who suffers such a thing, they can't really consider anything around them to be an equal. Just interesting entertainment, possibly a small threat but nothing that could really set them back.

I admit, playing the AI arrogance card isn't as solid as it could be but the way my mind weaves the story, their attitude just seems to make these pieces fall into place. That's the story I've weaved for myself.

>> Continued in next post.

[Rowne]

>> Continued from last post.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Yes, this timing makes the most sense, I believe. It also fits the peculiar design of Agatha's house. Its emptiness, and sheet-covered pieces of furniture, might have been a clue that nobody really lives there. This has just crossed my mind.

I was wondering if you'd bring that into the discussion.

The house was very dead. I think even Lucas made a comment or two about this. How it seemed creepy that the house was mostly in disuse aside from the few items he needed and a number of Crows, the same Crows that'd been following him.

I'm going to do it again .. *Sheepish.*

I'm playing the AI arrogance card again here because if they didn't cover their tracks and they left the house looking unlived in, they likely considered Lucas as too unobservant to really notice, either that or they felt they'd give him clues to see how Lucas would "play the game". Perhaps it's been a game of Cat and Mouse ... or simply a game of Chess with Lucas and Lucas is merely one of their pawns. They'll give him little pointers just to see if he'll catch on but all the while suspecting that he won't.

Again, for me, that just seems to play into the arrogance of the AI.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

You're right. I mistakenly thought that Marcus tells Lucas about her on their first meeting in the park, but I checked that that's not true in the meantime.

I wouldn't have called foul if you had said that, I wasn't entirely sure either but it was what I seemed to remember. On the first encounter he gives Lucas the cross and on the second encounter, he provides a contact.

I couldn't be sure though, that part of the game was a bit of a blur. I guess Marcus didn't leave as much of an impression on me as he could've.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

The thing is, she doesn't tell him practically anything on his first visit. There we have another flaw in the plan: assuming our hero will decide to return to her (and, in fact, be alive to make such a decision).

Of course, they could just be playing him. Trying to ascertain his personality. How desperate is Lucas Kane? Will he be desperate enough to be a pawn? If he returns after being given no information, if he's gullible and an easy target, they'd know it'd be more viable to keep playing him as a piece on their side of the Chess-board. So they don't give him any information the first time, just to see whether Lucas is really serious about his predicament. If he wasn't, they likely might've shifted their focus away from him, to more useful pawns. However, he played right into it and came back, as soon as he came back, they fed him with a load of clues regarding the Orange Clan and so the game goes on.

This is more than a feeling than anything else, you see? I can't really base it on anything more than that and I wouldn't lie about it, it just feels to me as though the developers and writers had a certain personae in mind for the AI and perhaps I'm just judging the AI wrong, perhaps I'm not really getting the correct vibes to understand them.

But if they are arrogant, cold, God-wannabes then that's exactly what they'd do.

Humans are unpredictable largely unless they're dependant and loyal. Could they make Lucas loyal in any way? That was the real trick for them, that was what they had to discover and learn. And to be honest, Lucas was right in their hand of the deal up until the end, had Lucas out of desperation handed over the Indigo Child, then they would've played their game well. It would've been check-mate all around.

... at least until Lucas turned up at the base to deal much boot to AI head.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Oh, no doubt about that it's set in the future. But a future familiar enough for a yellow polygonal guy to feel out of place.

I'm sorry to have broken up the paragraph but I want to make a quick interjection, I won't be too much of a windbag with this one.

Okay, what I theorize is that as I said, the Purple Clan already have a number of members of high-ranking organizations and the Government on their payroll. Now what might be interesting is if their technology was based purely off nanotechnology or some form of light and forcefields. All they'd have to do is project an image and it wouldn't really need to be solid. As I recall, Lucas didn't go "Kung-Fu Mastah" with the AI, there was no physical contact whatsoever. And when the AI brushed aside the soldiers, it did seem like forcefields.

What I stipulate is that one of the soldiers was paid off and carried in the device(s) that allowed the AI to render and manifest its forcefields. It's a long-shot but it's just a theory.

Perhaps even only a little into the future, holography and repulsion fields have been cracked.

And Lucas's computer screen did seem oddly hologram-ish.

Wild Sci-fi speculation, yep! But that's the best I have.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

If I've seen Lucas' computer in real life tomorrow, I'll probably say "Cool stuff. Must be expensive.", unlike a person hibernated for the last 50 years, who'd probably exclaim "What the heck is that?" because of the culture shock. If you've played Deus Ex,

Spoiler:

that game had a near-Godly AI introduced late in the game, but with hard sci-fi elements like nanotechnology and man-machine hybrids and robot guards being common in the game's setting, I felt prepared for that.

Yep. I don't think the AI was actually that advanced though. What I'm thinking is that mostly the visual appearance of the AI was just a hologram (easy enough to do I'd guess) and then it was just a matter of forcefields, those forcefields could purely have been channeled Chroma effects for all I know. If they're able to possess the Chroma in a digital state, perhaps they are able to channel their Chroma-presence to wherever they need it to be.

Theories, theories. I know.

So, there you have it. I'm not trying to contest anything here and as I said before, I hope you find this as entertaining as I do. I admit there are a lot of plot-holes and I'm probably thinking up things that even the developers might not have but given the information, I'm just doing my best to connect the dots. That's something I like doing.

[AFGNCAAP]

I admit it holds together rather well. Moreover, the story, behind all the "Mayan God fights the Internet" (a quote stolen from Eurogamer, I think) lunacy, becomes even quite meaningful, with Lucas standing up against his "creators" (I agree that the machines seem to be responsible for his undying) in the last minute, choosing to follow his own path rather than blindly* accepting someone else's answers.

*Ha! Does Agatha's condition symbolize the fact that AIs were blinded with pride and hence underestimates human race?

Thanks for sharing.

PS. Don't worry about the spoilers in this thread (for Fahrenheit, at least). The "[Spoilers!]" in the title should have scared the people who hadn't played the game.