[mag]

Originally Posted by hengst2404

Well let me try and rephrase this so you will see my point...sometimes my points are such that you have to read them carefully and think about them...oh wait where have i heard that? Seriously, just because you satet that the story is coherent as a fact, doers not make your statement true. Unles you are some kind of arbitrator or have some previously unmentioned insight into FF or perhaps helped write the story, then you simply cannot state that the story is coherent. See making a statement like that requires some type of authority. What you are saying is that story is coherent, period end of sentence. Now while its great that you think you are the fact master, but again just because you feel its so, doesn't make it so. Your statement is based upon your opinion. Not some law carved into a cliff or ancient text or in an article. To say that the stroy is coherent simply because you feel it is, dopesn't make it so. anymore than my stating the story is incoherent...period. That doesn't make my sentence a fact. Certainly without some type of qualification.

Okay, i will bite, explain your logic as to why all of the stories in all of the FF series are coherent, starting with FF and ending with FF X-2.

You're really not getting this, are you?

Whether or not the story is coherent has nothing to do with my opinion or yours. It also has nothing to do with having "some type of authority." It has to do with logic. If the story makes logical sense, then it's coherent. If it doesn't, then it's not coherent. It's as simple as that. Opinion doesn't enter into it. It's all logic.

Say I give the following argument.

All men have beards.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates has a beard.

That is a coherent, logically valid argument. Whatever you "feel" about it doesn't matter. It is.

Now I'm not going to sit here and go through the entire plot of every Final Fantasy game point by point. I think enough webspace has been devoted to that purpose already. Do a search on Clusty if you're interested. I'm sure you'll be able to find a number of synopses that will explain the story to you in detail.

And the fact that it is possible for these people to explain the story in a way that makes logical sense proves that the story is, in fact, coherent. So yes, the story is coherent, period, end of sentence. Now if there's some specific point in the story that you think isn't logical, I'd be more than happy to listen to your argument for why it's incoherent. But so far, no one has showed me anything in the story that doesn't make sense. All I've seen from you is a lot of crying and screaming because I disagree that a fact can be transformed into an opinion just by adding the words "in my opinion."

mag

[hengst2404]

All I have seen from you is a whole lot of non answers. Not crying, just some almost illogical sernse of your rightness on things, particularly the topic in general. Again you say the story is logical, period and end of story. I disagree, period, end of story. your statement that the story is logical does not in fact constitute a fact. One of these days, you will stop poitning to socrates and all of that and just accept that your point, well written though they are do not necessarily constitute facts. Just because you say a thing is logical doesn't make it so. You are certainly a rational individual and I appreciate your points and don't mind arguing them. But then you make a point and accuse me of crying about things when i did nothing to the contary. So in the futre, try and make your point, back it and then leave it at that. Nothing about these boards is all together personal or ultimately important enough to be insulting, overtly or covertly. This whole thing started by me pointing out how your bit about how the story is complex and has to be read carefully certainly came off as rather patronizing. Whether you intended it or not, I don't really know. But why sully your otherwise well-written arguments with accuasations of crying and the like. Simply put, you haven't proven your point, at least to me and likely won't. Which does at least leave open the possibility, however minute, that you may not be right. or i could just be crazy talking

Oh an just because I think the stroies are somewhat disjointed and occasionally non-coherent, does not in fact mean that i didn't understand them. taht was never my point. my point was the stories themselevs asdn the way they are told are not necessarily coherent or logical or even presented in a good manner all the time.

But if i recall this entire debate began when you accused those of us who had bad things to say about the FF series as being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Completely missing the fact that some of us simply didn't like all of the FF series. Strange as it is to imagine, its true.

[sethsez]

Just because it's possible to follow a story does not mean the story is coherent.

For example, let's imagine a movie in which there are five people in a cabin in the woods. One of them mentions, in passing, that his great grandfather was in WWII. Then, for the next forty five minutes, the people are attacked by evil demons one by one. Some gratuitous sex happens, then some gratuitous violence, and a woman runs out into the woods in her pajamas before being eaten by a demon. At the end of the forty five minutes, we fade to black.

When it starts up again, we're following the previous character's great grandfather and his traumatic experiences in the war for thirty minutes. He has a daughter near the end. Fade to black.

The daughter is grown up. For the next forty minutes, the movie is about her trials and tribulations in finding a man. It's a lighthearted romantic comedy. Then the movie ends.

Everything is tied together. It's all understandable from a plot point of view. But it's utterly incoherent.

In FFVI, the game world was coherent. Everything fit together, and it felt like a real place. In FFVIII and X, the game world was also coherent, if blatantly artificial. In VII, however, it was not coherent. Art styles would change without warning, certain kinds of technology would exist in exactly one place only, and you'd find a lone farm in the middle of a grassy field near a swamp which leads to a cave just east of a giant technological horror of a city. There's no rhyme or reason to the world's flow, no real sense of place. Every individual location works, and yeah, from a plot point of view it's all justified, but artistically and thematically it's utterly incoherent.

Incidentally, this goes for the characters, too. Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Barret, Cid and Yuffie are fine, but Vincent, Cait Sith and Red XIII had no place in the game world. Sure, the plot justified them, but they just don't mesh well with everything else, and wind up sticking out like a sore thumb.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by sethsez

For example, let's imagine a movie in which there are five people in a cabin in the woods. One of them mentions, in passing, that his great grandfather was in WWII. Then, for the next forty five minutes, the people are attacked by evil demons one by one. Some gratuitous sex happens, then some gratuitous violence, and a woman runs out into the woods in her pajamas before being eaten by a demon.

Ha ha, if you had said "raped by a tree" instead of "eaten by a demon" I might think you were talking about Sam Raimi's Evil Dead. Hard to believe that all the guy does anymore are Spider-Man movies...

[sethsez]

Heh, well, I had the Book of the Dead edition next to me as I typed that.

And as weird as his progression is, Peter Jackson's is far more bizarre. From Bad Taste and Dead Alive to Lord of the Rings... wow.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by sethsez

Heh, well, I had the Book of the Dead edition next to me as I typed that.

And as weird as his progression is, Peter Jackson's is far more bizarre. From Bad Taste and Dead Alive to Lord of the Rings... wow.

Ha ha, yeah it's close though. Dead-Alive is surely the most bloody movie ever made...even though it's so comical that it's not offensive and the blood generally doesn't look real. I think Bad Taste is underrated by fans who hopped on the Peter Jackson bandwagon after LOTR. I've personally liked his work since the mid-90s. Bad Taste is pretty clever, just super low budget and...absurd. lol.

[mag]

Originally Posted by hengst2404

All I have seen from you is a whole lot of non answers. Not crying, just some almost illogical sernse of your rightness on things, particularly the topic in general. Again you say the story is logical, period and end of story. I disagree, period, end of story. your statement that the story is logical does not in fact constitute a fact.

The story is either logical or it's not. But whether it is or it isn't is not a matter of opinion.

If there is ANY way for a story to be explained such that it makes logical sense, then it is coherent. Seeing as how there have been many, many people who have explained FF7's story in just such a way, I can only conclude that the story is, in fact, coherent. If you disagree, fine. Tell me why you disagree. But you can't just say, "Well, in my opinion, it's incoherent," and not give any reason. This isn't about your opinion. Now since I've been asking for somebody to show SOMETHING in the story that doesn't make sense and all you've done is continuously repeat your conclusion over and over again, that makes me think that you really are just trying to be contrary.

Now maybe you just don't like how the story is written. That's fine. THAT is a matter of opinion. But if you're going to say something like, "The story is incoherent," then yeah, I'm going to ask you to back it up.

Originally Posted by hengst2404

But if i recall this entire debate began when you accused those of us who had bad things to say about the FF series as being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Completely missing the fact that some of us simply didn't like all of the FF series. Strange as it is to imagine, its true.

Well then you're not recalling correctly because I never said anything of the kind. I suggest you go back and reread the thread. No_doubtsy suggested that certain people who don't like FF7 are hating on what is popular, and I said that he had a fair point. But I never accused anybody of anything just because they don't like Final Fantasy.

Originally Posted by sethsez

Just because it's possible to follow a story does not mean the story is coherent.

For example, let's imagine a movie in which...blah, blah, blah,blah

That's not what I said. What I said is that a story is coherent if it makes logical sense. We humans are pretty smart. We can understand a lot of things that aren't necessarily logical. But that doesn't make it coherent.

The movie you describe isn't incoherent because it can't be followed. It's incoherent because the plot points as you describe them make no logical sense. Final Fantasy VII's plot does make logical sense. Therefore, it is coherent.

Originally Posted by sethsez

In VII, however, it was not coherent. Art styles would change without warning, certain kinds of technology would exist in exactly one place only, and you'd find a lone farm in the middle of a grassy field near a swamp which leads to a cave just east of a giant technological horror of a city. There's no rhyme or reason to the world's flow, no real sense of place. Every individual location works, and yeah, from a plot point of view it's all justified, but artistically and thematically it's utterly incoherent.

Incidentally, this goes for the characters, too. Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Barret, Cid and Yuffie are fine, but Vincent, Cait Sith and Red XIII had no place in the game world. Sure, the plot justified them, but they just don't mesh well with everything else, and wind up sticking out like a sore thumb.

Again, you're talking about art, not story. And again, what you're saying doesn't make any sense. The world in Final Fantasy VII fits together rather beautifully. So some locations are more technologically advanced. So what? You don't expect the entire world to be completely homogenous, do you? There are many places here on Earth that are like that. I don't know where you're from, but here in the United States, it's not that unusual to be out in the country one minute and in the city the next. Furthermore, the varying degrees of technology across locations makes perfect sense within the context of the gaming world. Wealth is concentrated amongst a small group of people, just like in real life. What's important is that the game does have a distinctive art style throughout. It's not like you're going from manga to Disney to neo-classicism in one game. The art style isn't what changes. What changes is the culture in each location...again, just like real life.

The only change in art style I can reallly think of is the way the characters go from block figures in one scene to realistic looking cartoons in another. That can be kind of annoying, but I consider that a relatively minor quibble.

I also don't know what you mean by saying that Vincent, Cait Sith, and Red XIII had no place in the game world. They don't stick out at all. Really, how is a walking stuffed mog any more or less out of place than a guy with a flying ship? Or a chocobo? Or giant flying monsters that are destroying the planet? Sure, they may look different, but again, in the context of the game they make perfect sense.

mag

[hengst2404]

Well mag you have worn me down and no not because I enjoy being contrary. I agree that typically something either is or isn't logical. Now you have continually maintained that the story is coherent and logical but haven't really provided any specific examples and/or resoning for your argument. Nor have I for that matter and in the interests of ending what started as an interesting debate but has since turned dull and filled with circular arguing both from you and me I saw we simply agree to disagree with what we belive to be the case with the FF stories.
Lol so if you want it broken down..uyou win i give up the argument You wore me down. I do appreciate the mostly very well written responses. You must have been on the debate team or something. I did debate but only extemporaneous speaking where one could talk out of their ass and win the debate.

[sethsez]

Originally Posted by mag

The movie you describe isn't incoherent because it can't be followed. It's incoherent because the plot points as you describe them make no logical sense.

The plot points make perfect sense. Everything connects. You can follow the plot through three generations (this is not a new style... "The Pillow Book" does it, for example) just fine. The problem comes with the sudden changes in style, presentation, and lack of thematic continuity.

mag, you say that coherency is a SOLID FACT. Despite this, there are those (not just me) who consider the world and art of FFVII to be an incoherent patchwork (mostly due to the sheer number of people who worked on it, and the contrasting styles of Amano and Nomura). You can argue that this is factually untrue until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make you correct. It just makes you persistent.

I also don't know what you mean by saying that Vincent, Cait Sith, and Red XIII had no place in the game world. They don't stick out at all. Really, how is a walking stuffed mog any more or less out of place than a guy with a flying ship? Or a chocobo? Or giant flying monsters that are destroying the planet? Sure, they may look different, but again, in the context of the game they make perfect sense.

Imagine if Lord of the Rings had a gigantic walking Big Boy advertisment at Mt Doom. Now, could you justify it by saying "well, this world has dragons and hobbits and magic, so why not?"

I find (note the emphasis here) FFVII stylistically (again) incoherent.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by sethsez

...this is not a new style... "The Pillow Book" does it, for example...

Ah yes...The Pillow Book. Or as I like to call it "Ewan Mcgregor and a bunch of Japanese men running around in their birthday suits". Heh. I'm not the biggest Greenaway fan.

[sethsez]

I think Greenaway should just make a movie called "Lots of Penis: A Study of Grotesqueries and Lists" and be done with it. That's what everything he does boils down to anyway. Of course, he seems to think that making every shot symetrical and aping famous paintings makes his work artistic. The man has a talent for taking graphic violence, gratuitous sex, bizarre stories and gorgeous cinematography and making it all mind-numbingly boring. He's like David Lynch, only stupid and irrelevant.

[Once A Villain]

lol. Yeah exactly.

[Fallen Seraph]

Even as a devout FF fan, I have to say FF VII is incoherent in style (and not because I don't like the game as much as I enjoyed VIII). They were rushing to get everything out on schedule and had to employ a large number of people. With more people, you get more styles. Sometimes those people don't fit together...reason being probably why Nomura Tetsuya is always the character designer nowadays (to keep a similarity between FF characters - often why people feel there's no difference between the main characters). FF VII was quite random - it portrayed the difference between a Shin-Ra modified habitat and a natural place quite well but it didn't quite seem to fit....FF VIII did have Winhill (though unaffected by technology for some reason, even though Esthar soldiers had been there before). The fact is the number one reason FF VII appealed to so many people but had so many faults (incomplete ending - they were also planning to include extra endings if you had Vincet/Yuffie in your party; areas where "mystical" moments happen like Aerith's "ghost" in the church; and other stuff...) was because it was a melting pot of different styles that people of different tastes could enjoy. There's no way you can say the art style is coherent because no two people do things the same way...no matter what they are doing (something will always differ - the way they shade things, the way they colour...). This argument should be basically over, I had my say and still stick to it: FF VIII Rulez!!

- Fallen

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

lol. Yeah exactly.

Actually, no. In fact, he's a great director.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Actually, no. In fact, he's a great director.

He's alright. He has his moments. But he's not one of the greats. I agree with you on Wong Kar-Wai. Greenaway though...he's just too much sometimes. If I wanted to see a closeup of a Japanese man's asshole or one thousand Japanese penises (mixed in with shots of Ewan McGregor's) I'd get some gay Asian porn. Please explain to me Ninth why you think that Japanese assholes aid the storyline or enhance the artistic value of The Pillow Book? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against nudity or sex in films, but I like for it to seem somewhat necessary. Greenaway is over the top with just about everything, seemingly just for the hell of it.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

He's alright. He has his moments. But he's not one of the greats. I agree with you on Wong Kar-Wai. Greenaway though...he's just too much sometimes. If I wanted to see a closeup of a Japanese man's asshole or one thousand Japanese penises (mixed in with shots of Ewan McGregor's) I'd get some gay Asian porn. Please explain to me Ninth why you think that Japanese assholes aid the storyline or enhance the artistic value of The Pillow Book? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against nudity or sex in films, but I like for it to seem somewhat necessary. Greenaway is over the top with just about everything, seemingly just for the hell of it.

Weeell, obviously the assholes made a much stronger impression on you than they did on me, because I didn't remember them at all . I just remember the story, the morbid and perverse, yet sometimes sensual atmosphere, and the beautiful writing.
In any case, I haven't seen that many of his movies, and the one I liked best was "Drowning by numbers".

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Weeell, obviously the assholes made a much stronger impression on you than they did on me, because I didn't remember them at all . I just remember the story, the morbid and perverse, yet sometimes sensual atmosphere, and the beautiful writing.
In any case, I haven't seen that many of his movies, and the one I liked best was "Drowning by numbers".

Ah yes, Drowning by Numbers I remember enjoying (it's been awhile). I also recall enjoying The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover. But The Pillow Book, 8 1/2 Women (which features a scene where an older man and a younger man compare weenies, very Greenaway I must say), and most of his recent stuff I find bleh... Also, I seem to remember in Prospero's Books Greenaway couldn't do without showing a completely nude John Gielgud, who was 87 at the time. LOL.

[sethsez]

Greenaway is a great visual director. He can make some beautiful movies. Unfortunately, he absolutely cannot direct actors, and many times he inserts symbolism tha has nothing to do with the movie's theme, just to satisfy his fetish for symbolism (the man loves lists and numbers, that's for sure). I also generally hate how he uses music, with the two worst offenders being A Zed and Two Noughts (beautiful score, but repeated so often that it becomes obnoxious halfway through) and The Pillow Book (the French song... ugh).

I want to see him direct something written by someone else, without any lists, pointless symbolic detours or gratuitous nudity that has no bearing on the story. I think he could do something great if he lost a little creative control. Someone needs to reel him in, because I tend to think his movies get lost in his own personal obsessions.

[Orange Brat]

Hard to believe that all the guy does anymore are Spider-Man movies..

He's doing Evil Dead 4 after Spider-man 3. Confirmed and starring Bruce Campbell. He's also co-producing the Evil Dead 1/2 remake which doesn't star Bruce Campbell. Just thought I'd throw that in.