[sethsez]

Originally Posted by mag

If somebody starts to dislike a game at the same time that said game becomes hugely popular, I don't think it's out of line to suggest that the game's popularity may be a factor. It certainly wouldn't be the first time somebody started hating something just because it became mainstream.

Fair enough. However, I do think that there was a difference between I-VI and VII-X. Some (most) people appreciated the difference, some people didn't. David Bowie's most popular material was Ziggy Stardust/Aladdin Sane era, but I prefer the album Low because I liked the more experimental nature of it. Popularity isn't something I really take into consideration when I judge things (which can be a problem on some of the music boards I go to because a good chunk of the bands I love are considered sellouts there, which I think is a pointless term 99% of the time).

um...no.

How are they not coherant? They're so simple it's pretty damn difficult to make them anything but coherant. Granted, DMC is all over the place so forget that one, and RE4 is arguable, but Halo, Doom 3, HL2 and Zelda all have simple stories with a singular focus. Say what you will about the quality (I already said they suck), but it's hard to argue that "the princess has been kidnapped, so save her" is hard to understand or scattershot.

Are you sure you're thinking of Final Fantasy and not some other series? Flying off the rails? Deus ex machinas? When did all of this happen?

I've already given examples of this. Final Fantasy VII and VIII completely lacked focus (especially VII, with far too many sub-villains and a world that lacked the artistic cohesiveness of VI), VIII relied heavily on plot contrivances to push the story along, and X went all over the place with a plot that should have been lean and direct.

But forget about the costume design for a moment. Cloud and Squall are both the quintessential male personality: cool, unemotional, logical, tough, strong fighters. They even have the giant phallu...I mean, "swords." Unless you need all your men to be covered in hair and have muscles so big that they're bursting out of their clothes, I don't see how you can consider Squall to be a "girly man."

Because he looks androgynous. This has been a common complain of VIII and X for quite a while now, and initial pictures of Vaan from FFXII were met with scores of people going "oh no, not again." Personally, androgyny doesn't bother me so I don't care that Squall looks like a pin-up from the latest issue of The Advocate (special teen edition!), but I'm not going to say he looks manly.

This is also just an issue with anime in general... the bishonen thing can get out of hand sometimes.

Now Kuja was definitely androgynous.

Well, duh. I didn't really care for him as a villain, but IX was lighthearted enough that I didn't need to take him seriously, which made it less important.

[hengst2404]

Well first, I agree the term androgynous girl men was a bit contradictory. You don't think they look androgynous, well I am not concerned and I know i am not the only one who has made this observation.

I cannot speak for others, but it could be that some us simply didn't like the Final Fantasy games that came out after FF7. It could be that we simply had seen enough by FF8 which i hated in great part because of the horrible Guardian Summoning scenes that made leveling up such a chore.

I definitely disagree with your assertion that the FF series contains games with better clear-cut stories as often I found myself scratching my head at what was happening in the story, while a game like KOTOR told such a compelling story that I was totally absorbed into it. Kotor may have allowed you to make choices, but that never took away from the level of craftsmanship put into that story. KOTOR 2 was certainly disappointing but another tale for another time.

I don't think all japanese RPGs contain starnge stories, certainly I wouldn't spend as much money collecting anime box sets if that were the case. Only that with the exception of FF9, 8 and 10 and 10-2 did nothing for me in the final summation.

[sethsez]

I think I should also say, once again, that despite everything I still enjoy VII and (to a lesser degree) X. They're frequently charming despite the flawed stories and characters, and I did get a kick out of seeing them through to the end. But I also love Friday the 13th movies, and even though I find them highly enjoyable I don't think they're actually wonderful movies. They're not.

I hated VIII though. That game was a huge blotch on Square's record and felt more like a cheap clone than an actual entry into the FF series. I can't think of anything good to say about it outside of "it's pretty."

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by mag

Which is a fair point. If somebody starts to dislike a game at the same time that said game becomes hugely popular, I don't think it's out of line to suggest that the game's popularity may be a factor. It certainly wouldn't be the first time somebody started hating something just because it became mainstream.

The reason it's not a fair point mag is because, as I've stated, I'm a fan of the Half-Life series, the Silent Hill series, the Resident Evil series, the Dragon Quest series (more popular in overall sales than the FF games, or at least very close), etc. So one simply can't explain my dislike for Square by saying, "It's because they are mainstream." Today, I could still enjoy Vagrant Story, FF6, FF Tactics, or Xenogears, which I think are Square's best games. But when you look at ALL of the stuff they make, since the vast majority of it sucks...I just wouldn't call myself a fan.

EDIT: Oh yes, and most of the plots of those games that you said suck mag...I agree. With the exception of the Half-Life series (which hits stride in the second game, enriching the first game, plot-wise, as a result) and the Silent Hill games...the plots of those games are no better than a Final Fantasy game.

[mag]

Originally Posted by sethsez

How are they not coherant? They're so simple it's pretty damn difficult to make them anything but coherant. Granted, DMC is all over the place so forget that one, and RE4 is arguable, but Halo, Doom 3, HL2 and Zelda all have simple stories with a singular focus. Say what you will about the quality (I already said they suck), but it's hard to argue that "the princess has been kidnapped, so save her" is hard to understand or scattershot.

Well, I'm not really arguing that those plots aren't coherent (except for maybe DMC and RE) as much as I'm saying that Final Fantasy plots are coherent. Often they're quite complex and might even require a little bit of thought, but they do make perfect sense once you have all the information.

Originally Posted by sethsez

I've already given examples of this. Final Fantasy VII and VIII completely lacked focus (especially VII, with far too many sub-villains and a world that lacked the artistic cohesiveness of VI), VIII relied heavily on plot contrivances to push the story along, and X went all over the place with a plot that should have been lean and direct.

Actually, one of the things I thought VII and X did very well that was sort of missing in VIII and IX was that there was a very strong focus on the main goal almost right from the beginning. VII did have a lot of villains, but that didn't really take away from the main focus. If anything, I think it added to the game because most of them were pretty good villains.

I also disagree that the world in VII lacked cohesiveness. VII has a very unique and creative style to it. One of the things that makes a game like FF7 worth playing is the world that it's set in. It's refreshing to see a fantasy world that isn't Tolkien rehashed.

And the contrivances you talk about in FF8 I don't consider to be contrivances at all. It's something that seems contrived when you first encounter it, but if you think about it a little more, it really does makes sense.

Originally Posted by sethsez

Because he looks androgynous. This has been a common complain of VIII and X for quite a while now, and initial pictures of Vaan from FFXII were met with scores of people going "oh no, not again." Personally, androgyny doesn't bother me so I don't care that Squall looks like a pin-up from the latest issue of The Advocate (special teen edition!), but I'm not going to say he looks manly.

hmmm...I don't know. Even now that I know that Squall's character design is based on that freaky lookin' guy (an image that will no doubt give me nightmares, thank you very much), Squall himself still doesn't look all that androgynous to me. Maybe it's just the difference in his attitude and the way he carries himself. Or maybe it's just me. I dunno.

Originally Posted by hengst2404

I definitely disagree with your assertion that the FF series contains games with better clear-cut stories as often I found myself scratching my head at what was happening in the story, while a game like KOTOR told such a compelling story that I was totally absorbed into it. Kotor may have allowed you to make choices, but that never took away from the level of craftsmanship put into that story. KOTOR 2 was certainly disappointing but another tale for another time.

As I said, Final Fantasy stories can often be complex, and sometimes you have to think about them a bit. Frankly, that's one of the things I like about them. But they do make sense.

I've actually never played KOTOR because I have a deep hatred of all things Star Wars. But if you look for instance at a game like Neverwinter Nights. Neverwinter Nights is pretty much the quintessential American RPG. And it actually has a pretty good story. But the focus of the gameplay, as in most American RPGs, is on letting the player create her own character and have some say over how events in the story play out. Well, when you do that, you lose a certain degree of control over how the story unfolds. That makes it much more difficult to come up with plot elements and characters that really affect the player personally. The connection that the player has to the game isn't based on the plot; it's based on the fact that their character is essentially their own alter ego.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

The reason it's not a fair point mag is because, as I've stated, I'm a fan of the Half-Life series, the Silent Hill series, the Resident Evil series, the Dragon Quest series (more popular in overall sales than the FF games, or at least very close), etc. So one simply can't explain my dislike for Square by saying, "It's because they are mainstream." Today, I could still enjoy Vagrant Story, FF6, FF Tactics, or Xenogears, which I think are Square's best games. But when you look at ALL of the stuff they make, since the vast majority of it sucks...I just wouldn't call myself a fan.

And that's a much better defense than saying, "No, no. It's because I'm so much wiser now." Which is what you were originally saying. But even so, isn't it still possible that, while you enjoyed other games that were popular, Final Fantasy in particular appealed to you because of its niche following? And so you lost interest when Final Fantasy started trying to appeal to a larger audience? Didn't you already accuse the post-FF6 games of being dumbed down for a mainstream audience?

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Oh yes, and most of the plots of those games that you said suck mag...I agree. With the exception of the Half-Life series (which hits stride in the second game, enriching the first game, plot-wise, as a result) and the Silent Hill games...the plots of those games are no better than a Final Fantasy game.

I'm not sure I'd even say that they sucked. Most of them were fine for what they were made for. But they're really nothing on the same level as Final Fantasy.

Was Silent Hill even mentioned? Because that actually did have a pretty decent story. The most God-awful gameplay I've ever experienced, but the story was good. Pyramid Head is one of my all time favorite villains.

mag

[sethsez]

I think my main complaints for the Final Fantasy games can be found in any given review of the Final Fantasy movie. It has all the same faults that I see in the (recent) games, on a smaller scale, which is why I never understood the fans who worship the games and panned the movie (I personally thought it was a dumb but entertaining tech demo for my home theater).

As for me calling the games incoherant, I should probably clarify that. It's not that I don't understand what's going on, but that they feel incredibly forced. FFVIII is by far the biggest culprit here... explanations are given for everything, sure, but in the end it all feels extremely manufactured and mechanical. Things happen because they need to happen to advance the plot, with explanations retrofitted onto it. The game doesn't feel like it has any internal logic.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by mag

And that's a much better defense than saying, "No, no. It's because I'm so much wiser now." Which is what you were originally saying. But even so, isn't it still possible that, while you enjoyed other games that were popular, Final Fantasy in particular appealed to you because of its niche following? And so you lost interest when Final Fantasy started trying to appeal to a larger audience? Didn't you already accuse the post-FF6 games of being dumbed down for a mainstream audience?

That's not it though because...well...in my view the Final Fantasy games were always popular. Maybe I should have hung out with jocks more, lol, but as I recall...all of my best friends when I was 12 years old were playing FF4. And when I was 14 I only had one friend that didn't love FF6. What I'm trying to say is that to me, growing up, the Final Fantasy games were always hugely popular as far as I knew. FF7 I got and enjoyed, but i never liked it as much as 6. So, my dislike for the later FF games didn't begin because the games got even MORE popular.

Also, I did accuse the later games of being dumbed down to a certain degree, but more in terms of the gameplay and difficulty. I thought having 3 characters to a team in FF7 was rather absurd. Also the exploration didn't feel as deep due to the pre-rendered backgrounds. And as I said before, the games got so much easier than they used to be. I did accuse Square of catering to a larger audience, yes. But I've played all of their FF games and I simply don't much like 7 or 8. I probably enjoyed 9 and 10 more than 7 or 8. I never played 9 in English though, so if the plot was bad...I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by mag

I'm not sure I'd even say that they sucked. Most of them were fine for what they were made for. But they're really nothing on the same level as Final Fantasy.

Was Silent Hill even mentioned? Because that actually did have a pretty decent story. The most God-awful gameplay I've ever experienced, but the story was good. Pyramid Head is one of my all time favorite villains.

Hmmm, I think the Half-Life games (especially 2) tell their stories in the same way that Silent Hill 2 does. That's why I admire them. Half-Life doesn't get into psychological stuff simply because Gordon Freeman is basically the player, and a mute. Heh. But beyond that, the plots are detailed in the same way. The player has to draw conclusions from the visual world around them. I think it's a more intriguing way of telling a story, especially in a game.

[mag]

Originally Posted by sethsez

I think my main complaints for the Final Fantasy games can be found in any given review of the Final Fantasy movie.

Actually, I liked the movie too.

And I mean, come on. You know this turns you on, baby:





mag

[Once A Villain]

Heh. Why is Sephiroth's sword, hair, outfit, etc...well...let's just say why is Sephiroth's everything so much cooler than Cloud's?

[CrimsonBlue]

I think it's the other way around. Sephiroth looks nowhere as cool as in the game.

[Once A Villain]

Ha ha, I think Cloud's hair and especially his big fat sword (talk about overcompensating for something)...are absurd. Sorta hurts the amount of respect I can give him. Also seeing Cloud rolling around in a wheelchair wasn't great for his image. On the other hand, Sephiroth's outfit is stylish, heh, and his hair is long and looks particularly cool in the scene where he walks through the flames. Lastly, his sword is similar to a katana...and well, I have a certain love for the sharpest swords in the world.

But of course, I'm just referring to visual appeal here...

EDIT: Oh and yes Crimson, I agree...he looks better in the game.

[mag]

That's not Sephiroth. That's a new character named Kadaj.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

Ha ha, I think Cloud's hair and especially his big fat sword (talk about overcompensating for something)...are absurd.

You know, not everything has to be realistic. This is fantasy, you know.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

On the other hand, Sephiroth's outfit is stylish, heh, and his hair is long and looks particularly cool in the scene where he walks through the flames.

If by "stylish," you mean "goth."

mag

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by mag

You know, not everything has to be realistic. This is fantasy, you know.

Yeah but I mean, the sheer magnitude of the sword actually reminds me of Toshiro Mifune in Seven Samurai. His sword was 1 1/2 times as big as anyone else's. And people have joked about the implications of that for 50 years.

Originally Posted by mag

If by "stylish," you mean "goth."

To be painfully honest, I'm going by memory. I haven't really looked at Sephiroth for some time now. I just recall him looking cool and I remember his sword. Maybe his outfit could be described as "goth", I dunno... Visually, I mostly remember bits and pieces of imagery that struck me, and they all involved Sephiroth and/or the Weapons.

[Fallen Seraph]

I have to admit...this fighting is pathetic. People have different views on everything - I myself believe FF VIII is the best Final Fantasy...why? Cause it was more serious in terms of plot than the other FFs...no Gold Saucer...

Anyway, I have to still say I'm on the Final Fantasy side. I'm not an experienced Rpg player, but that's the reason I love the FFs. They are appealing to a broad range of people (probably why they fall short in other people's views) and thus make it easy for any kind of player to walk in and enjoy it. I remmember someone saying Square was pathetic for creating the FFs cause it showed how a company was unable to create a sequel, but it only shows how good they are at story-telling cause they able to make something new everytime.

About FF plots being similar and stuff...maybe cause all adventure/fantasy rpgs have that similar backdrop. Sometimes high expectations ruin a game. People hated FF 8 for the majority of it cause it wasn't FF 7...it had its advantages that none of you can really diss: Triple Triad, Junction System, and Maybe I'm A Lion. Triple Triad is complicated but what game has offered such a complex mini game where players can actually deviate from completing the game only to show off they have all the cards? Junction System offered a new way to set up characters and allowed various amounts of customisation to suit your style. I do hate FF X-2 but it had great plot points. One thing I really loved about it is the possibility that Shuyin could be the real version of Tidus (since Tidus was a dream).

Regarding the plots:

FF VII's villains really made the story actually tie in together. Character devlopment in this title is poor for one simple reason. There was basically none - FF VII didn't develop characters from what they were seen as from the beginning (Maybe Cloud & Barret) but it is because FF VII focused heavely on characters backgrounds. That's why people grew attached to them. They came to know the characters more and came to appreciate the reasons they were fighting.

FF VIII's villains were a crash cause they switched around that role too many times. However, character development was great...the characters had similar pasts...so there was no back story to grow off from but rather Square focused on making them grow together while the story progressed. The other characters came to understand Squall while you also came to know him (that's what attached people to the characters in this game, you grew with them on their jourey).

Now, about girly men...I know more about them than anyone - cause I am one!! Nah, just playing Cloud and Squall don't fall under that category - I'm sorry. Cloud broke down, yes...Cloud cried for Aerith, yes...Cloud cross-dresses, yes...but that makes him appear human to the players (except the cross-dressing part). Squall on the other hand, didn't do anything you guys wouldn't do for the love of your life!! About their clothing? Cloud's style is basically cool...not as cool as Sephiroth but cool!! Squall is actually considered the second coolest looking character in the series after Sephiroth.

Just tell one of the FF tales to people, you will have them captivated...For the record, Fantasia was good. The majority of these arguments are well based...makes it tough to think of a counter but the point is...it doesn't matter how many critics there are cause there will always be people with praises. Btw, if you guys wanna rumble with me and the other fans - we can meet up. We'll have a rumble in the jungle...but watch out for me!! I float like a bee and sting like a butterfly...or was it the other way around...

[hengst2404]

I agree with the sentiment that as in most things, whether a person oikes the FF series or not is a personal choice. I think the main problem was the assertion that if a person doesn't like FF7 or a similar game, they are simplyu being contrary for its own sake.

For instance I made the point that I don't particularly care for the storylines as I feel they are disjointed and just seem to take themselves too seriosuly. To this i was informed , and I quote:

"As I said, Final Fantasy stories can often be complex, and sometimes you have to think about them a bit. Frankly, that's one of the things I like about them. But they do make sense."

So my opinion that they don't make sense apparently is more in line with lack of my ability to sift through a complex story and see it for what it is, as well as an inability to think about it more. These types of implied things are what often set folks off.

If FF8 hadn't had such long guardian summonings or had at leats let you skip them, I likely would have enjoyed the game a whole lot more. especially once i became good at the card game minigame.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by hengst2404

If FF8 hadn't had such long guardian summonings or had at leats let you skip them, I likely would have enjoyed the game a whole lot more.

Ugh, don't remind me. FF7 also... I remember I'd go use the restroom or make a snack during some of those things.

[mag]

Originally Posted by hengst2404

I agree with the sentiment that as in most things, whether a person oikes the FF series or not is a personal choice. I think the main problem was the assertion that if a person doesn't like FF7 or a similar game, they are simplyu being contrary for its own sake.

For instance I made the point that I don't particularly care for the storylines as I feel they are disjointed and just seem to take themselves too seriosuly. To this i was informed , and I quote:

"As I said, Final Fantasy stories can often be complex, and sometimes you have to think about them a bit. Frankly, that's one of the things I like about them. But they do make sense."

So my opinion that they don't make sense apparently is more in line with lack of my ability to sift through a complex story and see it for what it is, as well as an inability to think about it more. These types of implied things are what often set folks off.

First of all, I never said it wasn't a matter of personal taste. I'm not the one in this thread who seems to have trouble differentiating between facts and opinions just because a statement of opinion might not necessarily begin with the phrase "I think." You can dislike Final Fantasy as much as you want for all I care. I never said anything about why you feel the way you do about it.

I was responding to your statement about Final Fantasy being incoherent. Now you can choose to believe that the story isn't coherent all you want. But you would be wrong. The story is coherent. That's not an opinion. That's just the way it is.

mag

[hengst2404]

I was responding to your statement about Final Fantasy being incoherent. Now you can choose to believe that the story isn't coherent all you want. But you would be wrong. The story is coherent. That's not an opinion. That's just the way it is.

mag[/QUOTE]

Wow so because in your opinion the story is coherent, its simply becomes a fact? An interesting leap in logic completely unsupported by your argument. Thanks for sharing

[mag]

Originally Posted by hengst2404

Wow so because in your opinion the story is coherent, its simply becomes a fact? An interesting leap in logic completely unsupported by your argument. Thanks for sharing

You people do have difficulty distinguishing between statements that are opinions and those that aren't, don't you? Okay, here's a refresher course.

Opinion: "Apples taste good."

Not an Opinion: "Apples are fruit."

Opinion: "Mickey Mouse is annoying."

Not an Opinion: "Mickey Mouse is a cartoon character."

See the difference? Alright class, now let's try applying this concept to our current example.

Opinion: "Final Fantasy VII is a great game."

Not an Opinion: "Final Fantasy VII has a coherent story."

You see, the second statement falls into that category because whether or not a story makes logical sense is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of...well, logic. A story is either coherent or it's not. You can think the story is incoherent all you want. That doesn't make it true.

Furthermore, and I don't usually cover this until the more advanced classes but I think you guys are good enough to understand it now, you can't turn a statement into an opinion simply by adding in the words "I think" or "in my opinion." Non-opinion statements don't work like that.

Okay, everybody. Class dismissed. And be sure to finish reading Chapter 12 for Monday.

mag

[hengst2404]

Well let me try and rephrase this so you will see my point...sometimes my points are such that you have to read them carefully and think about them...oh wait where have i heard that? Seriously, just because you satet that the story is coherent as a fact, doers not make your statement true. Unles you are some kind of arbitrator or have some previously unmentioned insight into FF or perhaps helped write the story, then you simply cannot state that the story is coherent. See making a statement like that requires some type of authority. What you are saying is that story is coherent, period end of sentence. Now while its great that you think you are the fact master, but again just because you feel its so, doesn't make it so. Your statement is based upon your opinion. Not some law carved into a cliff or ancient text or in an article. To say that the stroy is coherent simply because you feel it is, dopesn't make it so. anymore than my stating the story is incoherent...period. That doesn't make my sentence a fact. Certainly without some type of qualification.

Okay, i will bite, explain your logic as to why all of the stories in all of the FF series are coherent, starting with FF and ending with FF X-2.