[lakerz]

Originally Posted by Erkki

But I don't really care about any of these moral arguments against piracy and I'll continue both stealing and buying games. And nothing any of you can say here will make me feel either worse or better about it.

That's fine Erkki. Everyone must make their own choices in life and all that. Howerver, all of us that don't like piracy will continue to think people like you are definitely part of the problem, and there's nothing *you* can say to make us feel otherwise.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by lakerz

That's fine Erkki. Everyone must make their own choices in life and all that. Howerver, all of us that don't like piracy will continue to think people like you are definitely part of the problem, and there's nothing *you* can say to make us feel otherwise.

Exactly, that was my point.

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Asking for an OS for free? I'm losing you here. I already payed for the same OS the first time. Plus your monitor analogy doesn't work, coz the bottom line, if I have a monitor, I can use it with 2 computers and not have to pay for another one. Why not the OS? It is my personal property and I am supposed to use it as many times as I want.

And just coz you don't insert the CD into the computer to make a program run does not make it any different. When you buy a music CD, you can transform the files into MP3 and you can potentially listen to them either on the MP3 player (downloaded content) or CD player (hard content) at the same time. Just coz something can potentially be saved onto a harddrive does not make it any different than another piece of software. With PS2s and XBOX'es don't you have hard drives? Can you install a whole game to the hard drive of an xbox and play it without the CD?

I think the bottom line is, Microsoft is abusing their monopoly of the OS to force people to buy multiple copies for their personal use, to make more profit. Plain and simple.

SD, in your case, it might not be MS that has made the decision. It could have been Dell. When the PC makers bundle OS with the PCs they sell, as you said, they pass on the cost of OS to the consumers. Dell might have made a special arrangement with MS so that the cost of providing an OS with their PC is lower but the OS cannot be used in another PC. In other words, you did not pay the full retail price for the copy of Windows on your Dell PC. It's not like they charged you the full price for the Windows and prevented you from using it on any other machine.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

SD, in your case, it might not be MS that has made the decision. It could have been Dell. When the PC makers bundle OS with the PCs they sell, as you said, they pass on the cost of OS to the consumers. Dell might have made a special arrangement with MS so that the cost of providing an OS with their PC is lower but the OS cannot be used in another PC. In other words, you did not pay the full retail price for the copy of Windows on your Dell PC. It's not like they charged you the full price for the Windows and prevented you from using it on any other machine.

That's true, but why doesn't it apply to other pieces of software. Like Every other software that came with the DELL installs with no problem. It is microsoft's Windows XP new protection scheme (dunno if you have heard about it), that does not work.

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Well first of all you really don't have much of a choice when it comes to an OS. Windows is the only viable OS to use to play games. Linux is far from close to be a platform to play games.

There are no problems to play games in Linux. You can play Doom III, Unreal Tournament 2004, Neverwinter nights and lots of other things. The problem is that the market is much smaller than for windows.

Originally Posted by RainbowLight

You'll hate piracy even more when you read this article:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/...RSS,RSS,00.asp

"Presumed Guilty: Paying for Piracy in Advance

Should prices for blank media and recording products include a royalty fee to copyright holders for presumed losses to piracy?"

Ah, so if I buy blank cd:s and other blank media I have earned the right to pirate software. How convenient.

[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Asking for an OS for free? I'm losing you here. I already payed for the same OS the first time. Plus your monitor analogy doesn't work, coz the bottom line, if I have a monitor, I can use it with 2 computers and not have to pay for another one. Why not the OS? It is my personal property and I am supposed to use it as many times as I want.

And just coz you don't insert the CD into the computer to make a program run does not make it any different. When you buy a music CD, you can transform the files into MP3 and you can potentially listen to them either on the MP3 player (downloaded content) or CD player (hard content) at the same time. Just coz something can potentially be saved onto a harddrive does not make it any different than another piece of software. With PS2s and XBOX'es don't you have hard drives? Can you install a whole game to the hard drive of an xbox and play it without the CD?

I think the bottom line is, Microsoft is abusing their monopoly of the OS to force people to buy multiple copies for their personal use, to make more profit. Plain and simple.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The thing is, I'm having real trouble arguing with you because you've said so many things I do agree with. Microsoft has undoubtedly abused it's monopoly position over the years. Ideally I'd like to see more software released for an open source OS like Linux but, without either major industry support or radical changes in home computers, that's unlikely to happen soon. I also applaud your well-reasoned arguments against piracy of gaming software. Regardless of the response of some, you've blown away most of the so-called justifications for piracy in a surprisingly succint way.

So let's just call it quits for now. There's far too many interesting things to discuss to chase this round fruitlessly forever.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by stepurhan

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The thing is, I'm having real trouble arguing with you because you've said so many things I do agree with. Microsoft has undoubtedly abused it's monopoly position over the years. Ideally I'd like to see more software released for an open source OS like Linux but, without either major industry support or radical changes in home computers, that's unlikely to happen soon. I also applaud your well-reasoned arguments against piracy of gaming software. Regardless of the response of some, you've blown away most of the so-called justifications for piracy in a surprisingly succint way.

So let's just call it quits for now. There's far too many interesting things to discuss to chase this round fruitlessly forever.

Ok I agree I'm just frustrated to pay 200 bucks to MS on a windows OS, when that money could go to some gaming goodness

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by ragnar

There are no problems to play games in Linux. You can play Doom III, Unreal Tournament 2004, Neverwinter nights and lots of other things. The problem is that the market is much smaller than for windows.

Doom 3 for linux? Are you sure? How is that possible? DOOM 3 requires direct x to run. Is there its equivalent on Linux? I know that the original DOOM was all rewritten using Java and it ran pretty smoothly. Sun was showcasing how Java can be a viable gaming language.

[jjacob]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Doom 3 for linux? Are you sure? How is that possible? DOOM 3 requires direct x to run. Is there its equivalent on Linux? I know that the original DOOM was all rewritten using Java and it ran pretty smoothly. Sun was showcasing how Java can be a viable gaming language.

Oh yeah, definately. There are more games 'available' for linux than you might think. Even if the developer doesn't make it compatible, some linux junkie will I think ID Software made the linux installer themselves though, you just buy a copy and use that installer program for linux (not included on disc though). Interestingly, the system requirements for Doom 3 on linux are considerably lower than those for windows. Also there's a linux-windows emulator called Lindows, I don't know whether it supports the latest games though, never used it.

[Dragonrose]

Ladies and gentlemen- I would simply like to state that you have never in your life bought a proffesionally made program.

What you have bought is a license. The fact that you also get tangible things like a disk usually obscures that fact, but you aren't paying for the program itself. You are paying for the right to use the program, the same as if you were paying people to be in a movie.

There is a specific reason why I'm using this analogy. In 1973, a version of The Three Musketeers was released. The actors, technical designers, cameramen, and all the other people that worked on the production had signed contracts stating that they would be paid to be in this movie and that they would be paid a certain amount.

By the end of production, so many extra scenes had been filmed, that it was possible to make another movie. And so extra scenes were cobled together and a sequel was made. It was entitled The Four Musketeers: Milady's Revenge. The producers were able to get what they wanted out of it (more money), but the actors, technical designers, cameramen and all the people that worked on the production got nothing. Is it fair that other people profited from the production team's hard work, while the production team got left with nothing?

So think about it. The software creators are providing a service, just like the production team did. If you re-use the service without paying for it, or even worse don't pay for the service at all... that's rather nasty, don't you think?

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Doom 3 for linux? Are you sure? How is that possible? DOOM 3 requires direct x to run.

For windows it might require DirectX, although I'm not sure there isn't an OpenGL version for windows too. Anyway, the linux version uses OpenGL.

Is there its equivalent on Linux? I know that the original DOOM was all rewritten using Java and it ran pretty smoothly. Sun was showcasing how Java can be a viable gaming language.

Eh, I wouldn't want to run Doom III using java.

If you want to know more about Doom III on linux, this might be a good start: http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/linux/doom/

I might even try it some day, when ATI has released a set of drivers for linux that works with Doom III. Because currently, they're somewhat broken when it comes to Doom III.

[Deano]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

*sigh*

One thing that people who engage in piracy continue to forget is this:

downloading a game without paying for it is theft, plain and simple.

That's what the media keeps telling you isn't it? So you assume it's true. Then this might shock you, you might want to sit down. It's lies. Piracy is not theft, plain and simple. Oh it's morally very wrong and it's copyright infringement which is a major civil offence but it is not theft! It's not a criminal offence, despite what the media want you to believe.
I don't mean to be all snarky with you here as I pretty much agree with you that piracy is wrong but as a fact "Piracy is theft" is just rubbish. There's plenty of valid arguements you can (and are) making against it but please don't lower yourself to the level of quoting media propaganda. Here's some friendly help, apologies for the bad language: http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/ffi/ffi1.htm

Another excuse that I hear a lot from people who engage in piracy is that it's ok to download a game because they wouldn't have bought the game anyway. To me, this also makes no sense. Is it Ok for you to go a steal a book from a local Barnes and noble because you wouldn't have bought it anyway?

Interestingly lots of book shops these days are encouraging you to read books while there, on the logic that it encourages other people to buy. And this would be a fairer analogy.

Here's something that really annoys me though - Knights of the Old Republic 2 was meant to be out for Christmas, was really looking forward to playing it over Christmas, but it's been delayed. Tough break hey? Oh, but it's only delayed for us Europeans, the US are getting it in December. So come the US release date what should I do? There's three options:
1) Wait - which sucks
2) Import it - pay over the odds, and it wouldn't work on my UK Xbox unless it was chipped anyways
3) Download it and play it
I want to buy the damn game! Even after the Sam and Max and Full Throttle sequal debacle I'm there with my money ready to give to Lucas Arts... but no, I live in the wrong place, so I have to wait 3 months - well if they're gonna treat me like a second-rate customer then why bother lining thier pockets?

[timcclayton]

Originally Posted by ragnar

If you want to know more about Doom III on linux, this might be a good start: http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/linux/doom/

I might even try it some day, when ATI has released a set of drivers for linux that works with Doom III. Because currently, they're somewhat broken when it comes to Doom III.

You see, for me, that's the problem with Linux - I don't want to spend my hard-earned cash on a game and then spend the next 8 hours fiddling with Linux to find out whether it is going to run or not. I just want to sit down, install the game and play it. Don't get me wrong, I think that the open source movement is highly laudable - I use Firefox now (although I have to keep IE on my system for accessing certain websites that Firefox refuses to) and I would be more than happy to use OpenOffice at home (although I got a licence for Office 2000 with my last PC so I actually use that at the moment).

But Linux just isn't there yet for gamers. And until it is totally compatible, most average users are just not going to use it.

[ragnar]

Excuse me for my language, but you're talking through your hat. Linux nowadays isn't much more difficult to use than windows, it's just a little different. The major reason so few people really change from windows to linux is that they are a lazy bunch that don't want to learn something new, they prefer to pirate windows and still use what they're used to. The only way they would change is if someone force them or the other thing is exactly as the old one.

And the problem that a game doesn't work with ATI currently isn't limited to linux. There is often problems with some games certain driver and game combinations on windows. Thief 3 had some rather irritating shadow problem on my ATI for example.

although I have to keep IE on my system for accessing certain websites that Firefox refuses to

It probably isn't Firefox:s fault, but the idiot that designed the website to exclude non-IE users.

[Fop]

I get such headaches and rage attacks when I use Windows... Nothing works logically. If it works, it may not next time. If it doesn't, there's no way of knowing why. Also, searching for new versions of software is such a pain. I just "emerge sync && emerge -u world" and let linux do the work of installing tried and tested new versions.

[Fop]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

You can rent the game if you are so hesitant to pay 50 bucks on it.

Wrong. Maybe in the States, but not in Finland and not in most of Europe. I do pirate some games. However, I have bought many games that have failed to keep my interest and so haven't given me the experience I bargained for. Games that I've pirated and played through I've bought.

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Piracy is bad because companies spend 4 years pouring their heart out to produce a game for your pleasure.

Oh, come on. Game companies do it for money, and lots of it. Halo 2 sold more on it's first day than Spiderman 2 on it's first three days. Games are a huge business and game companies aren't philantropists.

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Do you find it right or moral, that you work on something for 4 years, and someone just grabs it for free? Maybe if you put yourself in their shoes, you will understand.
Whether you care about the gaming industry or not, they are the ones who create the games you love. Stealing hurts the development houses and publishers, and some of their figures are pretty shady.

If I failed to make a product of acceptable quality, I wouldn't expect people to pay for it. Furthermore, I'd be ashamed of taking their money and I'd get a job I can do.

[timcclayton]

Originally Posted by ragnar

Excuse me for my language, but you're talking through your hat. Linux nowadays isn't much more difficult to use than windows, it's just a little different. The major reason so few people really change from windows to linux is that they are a lazy bunch that don't want to learn something new, they prefer to pirate windows and still use what they're used to. The only way they would change is if someone force them or the other thing is exactly as the old one.

First of all, I am not talking through my hat - I don't even WEAR a hat. But talking of hats, I took the time earlier this year to sit down and install Red Hat 7.3 and although it took a while I did get it installed OK (I seem to remember that drive partioning was the most difficult bit and took a while to get right though). Yes it came with a shedload of free software, almost none of which I ever used and since the download was 2 CDs (yeah it took a while) I was a bit pissed off to be honest as it is the same "bloatware" claim they make about Windows, but at least Windows fits onto a single CD.

Once it was installed I tried copying Windows files to Linux and vice versa on floppies to see how that worked, and a simple thing like that was a struggle - I had to mount drives etc., there was nothing like "My Computer" in Linux.

Then I tried peer-to-peer networking the Linux box to my Windows box. I had to spend hours and hours reading technical articles and was still none the wiser.

I gave up in the end - you may be right in what you say about Windows users not wanting to change over, but there's a good reason for that - Windows works. It's taken a bloody long time, but it works. And my earlier post still stands: "I just want to sit down, install the game and play it". I can with Windows and I mostly can't with Linux.

Where's my Linux box now ? Gathering dust in the garage.

Rags, I know you are a fan of Linux and I respect that. But being over-defensive of it is counter-productive - the simple fact is that it isn't close to being used by the majority of gamers yet. Someone needs to produce a gaming build of Linux that is 100% compatible with Windows/DirectX etc. before it will enter the mainstream, because people just don't have the time to sit around tinkering with operating systems any more - they just want to play...


As to the IE thing, I totally agree - Microsoft's browser and it's WindowsUpdate website among other things are non-W3C compliant and they should be ordered to change them so that they are. Question is, who's going to force them to do it ?

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by ragnar

Excuse me for my language, but you're talking through your hat. Linux nowadays isn't much more difficult to use than windows, it's just a little different.

That maybe so, but there's a shitload of things to learn. Firstly, which distribution to use? I've tried Mandrake 10.0 (and 9.1 or something previously), but I just don't know where to easily learn the things that are different from Windows. Well, to be honest, maybe I've not bothered too much to find a place where all is explained, but have resorted to trial&error learning. Even creating shortcuts is confusing even, and different in Gnome and KDE, as far as I remember.
And where should I install programs? There's no default setting like "XProgram Files" for windows, and I never understood how this works in linux. I haven't used it for a long time now, but as I remember some things are at /usr/bin and some at /usr/sbin or something and so on or were those only for the binaries?

[Fop]

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Yes it came with a shedload of free software, almost none of which I ever used and since the download was 2 CDs (yeah it took a while) I was a bit pissed off to be honest as it is the same "bloatware" claim they make about Windows, but at least Windows fits onto a single CD.

No. None of that stuff is integrated in Linux - you didn't have to install them. Media Player and IE have been integrated into Windows so Windows doesn't work without them. Why'd you download Red Hat if you didn't want that stuff? You could've gotten Wolf (http://www.woalf.uklinux.net/), which fits in a single floppy and offers web capability. Gentoo, the distribution I'm using, fitted in a single CD.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Once it was installed I tried copying Windows files to Linux and vice versa on floppies to see how that worked, and a simple thing like that was a struggle - I had to mount drives etc., there was nothing like "My Computer" in Linux.

Your brand of Linux didn't automatically install such easy to use features. I remember having a Linux install with icons for the Floppy drive and CD-ROM on my desktop, from the moment I first turned the computer on. Now I sport an iconless desktop, though.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Then I tried peer-to-peer networking the Linux box to my Windows box. I had to spend hours and hours reading technical articles and was still none the wiser.

Yeah, Windows -> Linux networking can be troublesome. They're developing it all the time. But does that really have anything to do with Linux as such? Windows doesn't have that capability at all.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Windows works. It's taken a bloody long time, but it works. And my earlier post still stands: "I just want to sit down, install the game and play it". I can with Windows and I mostly can't with Linux.

Windows works sometimes, often it doesn't. It took me three hours yesterday to update IL-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. Windows liked to cut my internet connection for no reason at all (something which never happens in Linux for me), making it difficult for me to download the large update package. Of course I had no way of knowing why it cut my connection. There were no error messages or logs that I could find.

Say I'd like to install and play Doom 3. I'd open up a console (one click), type "emerge doom3" and insert proper CDs when the installer asks. Then I would type "doom3" and the game would start. Then I would soil myself.

Originally Posted by timcclayton

Rags, I know you are a fan of Linux and I respect that. But being over-defensive of it is counter-productive - the simple fact is that it isn't close to being used by the majority of gamers yet. Someone needs to produce a gaming build of Linux that is 100% compatible with Windows/DirectX etc. before it will enter the mainstream, because people just don't have the time to sit around tinkering with operating systems any more - they just want to play...

Rags wasn't over-defensive. The reason Linux isn't being used by a larger faction of gamers is that IT ISN'T BEING USED BY A LARGE FRACTION OF GAMERS. No market for games, so only some get Linux versions.
Good luck getting MS to publish their source code, BTW, because that's what it would take. Meanwhile, we're stuck with Wine, which is an excelletn try considering the goal.

[ragnar]

Originally Posted by timcclayton

First of all, I am not talking through my hat - I don't even WEAR a hat. But talking of hats, I took the time earlier this year to sit down and install Red Hat 7.3 and although it took a while I did get it installed OK

Why do you use old software? RH 7.3 was old already early this year. If you want redhat, try Fedora Core 3.

(I seem to remember that drive partioning was the most difficult bit and took a while to get right though)

This is only complicated because you want both windows and linux at the same time. You had had to go through the same process if you had only had linux installed first and then wanted to install a windows side by side with linux.

Yes it came with a shedload of free software, almost none of which I ever used and since the download was 2 CDs (yeah it took a while) I was a bit pissed off to be honest as it is the same "bloatware" claim they make about Windows, but at least Windows fits onto a single CD.

That's why I use netinstall and only download those programs that I want on my computer.

Once it was installed I tried copying Windows files to Linux and vice versa on floppies to see how that worked

Floppies? I didn't think anyone used that anymore.

, and a simple thing like that was a struggle - I had to mount drives etc., there was nothing like "My Computer" in Linux.

And here we have something that works a little different. Wait a minute, last time I checked Fedora Core, there *were* something like "My Computer". Mounting drives is not a very big problem, unless you use floppies, which are a problem in themselves.

Then I tried peer-to-peer networking the Linux box to my Windows box. I had to spend hours and hours reading technical articles and was still none the wiser.

P2P? Why would you use that to transfer files between two machines? or am I misunderstanding something? Perhaps you mean normal windows networking and then your blame again should go to microsoft for making a non-standard, proprietary protocol for connecting windows machines. The samba team has done a great job deciphering it all.

I gave up in the end - you may be right in what you say about Windows users not wanting to change over, but there's a good reason for that - Windows works.

No it doesn't. You've just gotten used to all the strange things that it does. I'm not saying that Linux is perfect, it isn't, but it's not more broken than windows. Lots of people use it daily (including me), even as a desktop machine, and are very happy with it.

It's taken a bloody long time, but it works. And my earlier post still stands: "I just want to sit down, install the game and play it". I can with Windows and I mostly can't with Linux.

Because most game companies don't make linux versions at all. By the way, if all games just works on windows, why is there so many posts here about technical issues with all sorts of games, even new ones?

Where's my Linux box now ? Gathering dust in the garage.

That's your choice. You can use whatever system you want. But you have been delivering obvious false statements (that you can't play good games on linux) and that is what I oppose.

Rags, I know you are a fan of Linux and I respect that. But being over-defensive of it is counter-productive

Defensive? I just state that there is no problem running games in linux. It seems to me that you are fighting wind mills here.

- the simple fact is that it isn't close to being used by the majority of gamers yet.

That's because the windows market currently is much bigger and thus the game makers make games for windows mainly

Someone needs to produce a gaming build of Linux that is 100% compatible with Windows/DirectX etc.

Why? People play games on lots of non-windows platforms, MacOS, consoles, PDA:s and what not. Are you saying they are not valid gaming platforms because they're not 100% compatible with windows/directx?

before it will enter the mainstream, because people just don't have the time to sit around tinkering with operating systems any more - they just want to play...

If they only want to play, I think it's a better option to buy a console. It's made to play games.

Why don't you end your war and let people play on the platform they want? If you only want to play games with Bill, that's your choice. Don't enforce it onto others.