By the way, why does everyone hate console gaming? It seems like a lot of people wouldn't play a game because it's on a console. May I remind, that a lot of landmark games were on consoles and if they were for the PC, they wouldn't have as any impact on gaming whatsoever.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

By the way, why does everyone hate console gaming? It seems like a lot of people wouldn't play a game because it's on a console. May I remind, that a lot of landmark games were on consoles and if they were for the PC, they wouldn't have as any impact on gaming whatsoever.

I don't hate console gaming. I just hate Microsoft. I don't mind playing playstation 2 games. But I'm trying not to pay a penny to support that mongrel money loving machine of a corporation.

[Kolorabi]

I think one extremely important thing that people seems to forget here is that the PC is, for now at least, an open platform. Everyone can make a game for the PC and pitch it to a publisher or publish it online. That's not the case for consoles, where you'll have to get developer kits and where part of the income will always go to the console maker.

For this reason, the PC will always be the preferred platform for independent developers, and those are often the guys who make the best games.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I, for one, do not hate consoles. Like I had already stated, they are the prime instruments of establishing games and gaming culture as a highly significant phenomenon, and we as gamers cannot deny that fact. We should rejoice in it.

However, nearly all the games I've played and enjoyed have been on the PC, and this is why. I started my gamer lifestyle when I bought a Playstation over four years ago, and I was into that passionately, playing Tomb Raider games, Wipeout 3, Fear Effect, and Silent Hill. I loved those games. However, once I discovered computer games I realized how much more depth they had compared to the PS games available. Gabriel Knight 3 had the kind of story, gameplay, and general pacing most console games lacked. I was even surprised that such an 'arthouse' type game like Silent Hill made it to console. I think that was the difference.

I wanted games that had particular complexities and depth and I couldn't find them on the console. I don't care for arcade, I don't give a damn about Mario. For cripe's sakes, I grew up on arcade games, spending hours with friends at the corner shop pumping quarters into Space Invaders, Centipede, Battlezone, and Tempest. I was sick of that, I wanted to go forward and beyond that. You 'little kids' may be discovering the vintage 'coolness' of those arcade classics, but I'm grown up and I want my games grown up, too. Unfortunately most console games feel too arcade-like for me, too shallow. Instead I've found that many PC games appeal to me precisely because they're more grown up as I am. Even though it was eventually ported to console, Deus Ex had the depth and complexity I was craving. I dunno, I just want something.....mature and challenging because of it.

Now that I have access to an Xbox I searched around for a 'grown up' game I can play on it. I couldn't find a single one!! And the ones that do exist for it (Broken Sword 3, Silent Hill 2, etc.) I've already played - on the PC. I wish they would make more complex, subtle, and mature games for Xbox. I know that's slowly changing now (DX: Invisible War, Thief: DS, etc.), but there still doesn't seem to be much diversity beyond sports games, racers, and arcade platformers.

[Sly Boots]

Well, I think Deus Ex 2 could have been better had it not been developed for both PC and Xbox. Deus Ex 1 was ported to PS after it became a success on the PC, but DX2 seemed the other way around (loading areas, bad control, unique ammo, less RPG). They made the game so it can work on Xbox, ignoring the PC possibilities. That's why I don't like consoles, they dumb down the game, and, in the case of DX2 it affected the PC version.
I don't know why the Ion Storm team didn't develop separate versions, the PC version, except for the controls, is identical to the Xbox (the patch solves some problems though). They didn't use the advantages the PC offered and the sales weren't so great (there is talk that Eidos will stop funding Ion Storm Austin, like they did to the Dallas office).
I think DX2 was a great console game, but only a good PC game.
Max Payne 2, though, was impecable on the PC, although it had a PS2 version.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I agree, but there's more to it than that. The idea of Deus Ex, in its purest sense, is too complex for the console both technically and conceptually. Consoles, as we know them to be and as people generally know them to be, are designed to be simplistic experientially. That is, you plop down on the couch, grab the controls, have fun, and a couple hours later, throw the controls down and run out the door. Consoles embody the idea of entertainment as quick, disposable consumption. A twitch machine built with convenience in mind. That is its most potent quality.

But a game as complex and subtle as Deus Ex is difficult to enjoy that way. It is a more formal game that demands sustained attention and a level of patience. I think Eidos and ISA overlooked this. Their mistake, as you pointed out, is that they diluted the game to fit the constraints and simplicity of the console. The result was an emasculated version of an otherwise deep and wonderfully intricate gaming experience.

But I think it would still have been possible to do a game like DX for a console. The trick is how to do, not what to do. What they erroneously did was say: "Let's take this highly complex game and cut out the subtleties and adapt it to the simple console." The question they should have asked is: "How do we take advantage of the console's simplicity and straightforwardness and effectively create a complex game out of it that's not like any other console game?" Their approach to this was unfortunately stilted by the perceptions and (I'll venture to say) stigma attached to the console.

I don't think consoles are ultimately 'dumb'. I think that they have so much potential as a platform for new, more nuanced games. It's a matter of working with the console's given possibilities and concentrically working out from there.

[Crunchy in milk]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

I'm trying not to pay a penny to support that mongrel money loving machine of a corporation.

Hah hah hah hah.... It's a Sony...

[Sly Boots]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

By the way, why does everyone hate console gaming?

I don't hate consoles, I just don't like them very much.
Still, I think I will play Final Fantasy on the PS2 when I'll go to my uncle.

Originally Posted by Kolorabi

Everyone can make a game for the PC and pitch it to a publisher or publish it online.

Yeah, a couple of years ago I tried making a text adventure game I called SUD Mafia. SUD=Single User Dungeon.
I gave up after I realised I couldn't program it and I didn't have any story ideas.

[remixor]

From the accompanying news post...

Originally Posted by Tycho of Penny Arcade

If you've been avoiding consoles because you see them as childish, while you yourself are a man of erudition who only deigns to use a machine befitting your elevated intellect, there is no way for me to describe to you how far off-base you are. You can't even see the base from there. You're looking around, but you can't find it. Where's the base?

No online play on consoles? No innovation? Those aren't simply false, they're criminally negligent. They do not even resemble reality. Don't send us anymore hatemail about this garbage, as it has the opposite of your intended effect. It is a sweet odour to us, like an offering. We forward them to each other and laugh at you, we trade your worst moments in joy and exultation. So, keep shaking that tiny fist! From here, it looks like a puppet show.

(this was originally posted when StarCraft: Ghost was announced to be a console game but it's just as applicable now)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

[reads the comic remix-o-lot posted]

LMAO

*ahem*

On a serious note, perhaps my perceptions of the console might have been different if they had brought out Gabriel Knight 3 on the Playstation?

Sony exec: "Impossible! We will never allow our brilliant invention to grow up!"
Nintendo: "Pffft!"
Microshayt: "Who the hell took the last bag of Doritos?!!"

Trep: "Fine." [shrugs. goes off and boots up Uru on his PC]

[ConcreteRancor]

I have to give consoles credit for bringing gaming to the mainstream, making our pastime look less antisocial to others. Hell, my girlfriend was actually eager to play Marvel vs. Capcom 2 with me on the PS2. But I have yet to play a game on a console that hasn't been done better in some way on the PC. (Not necessarily the exact game, but a similar game.) I feel sorry for console players who have no idea that there's something better out there, and who honestly think that their games are the best there are.

It's never more apparent than when I'm talking with some friends about Halo, and I mention flying a Banshee. "There are no banshees in MP," they say, and I say "There are on the PC." And they'll say "Oh, the PC version." And I'll be like "Don't you dare dismiss me! I play 16-on-16 capture the flag, dammit! 16-on-16! You can't touch that! And you know why? Because you don't have four freaking X-Boxes! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!"

[remixor]

Originally Posted by ConcreteRancor

I have to give consoles credit for bringing gaming to the mainstream, making our pastime look less antisocial to others. Hell, my girlfriend was actually eager to play Marvel vs. Capcom 2 with me on the PS2. But I have yet to play a game on a console that hasn't been done better in some way on the PC. (Not necessarily the exact game, but a similar game.) I feel sorry for console players who have no idea that there's something better out there, and who honestly think that their games are the best there are.

And I feel sorry for you for thinking that either consoles or PCs are actually superior to the other.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Oh come on, CR! Be nice.

[ConcreteRancor]

But I've played a lot of both console games and PC games, and I honestly feel that way. There are too many compromises to be made in developing a game for a console. Look at Doom 3 for the X-Box, or Deus Ex 2's controls. Or, horrors, Baldur's Gate for the PS2. It was turned into Diablo!

Console players can think their games are superior, and I don't mind, AS LONG AS THEY'VE PLAYED PC GAMES FIRST! And that is usually the missing element.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Well, I for one am done snubbing consoles. But, as I've always pointed out, most of the PC games I've played and really enjoyed possess a certain depth that I almost never find in console games. And that's what I'm looking for, depth. Whether it's an emotional depth, or intellectual or even highly complex but subtle gameplay mechanics that are NOT twitch based. I'm still waiting for them on console.

[ConcreteRancor]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Well, I for one am done snubbing consoles. But, as I've always pointed out, most of the PC games I've played and really enjoyed possess a certain depth that I almost never find in console games. And that's what I'm looking for, depth. Whether it's an emotional depth, or intellectual or even highly complex but subtle gameplay mechanics that are NOT twitch based. I'm still waiting for them on console.

I guess this is at the heart of what I'm saying when I say that the games are done better on PC.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Well, that's what I mean. A good part of the stigma attached to the console is the fault of both developers and gamers. Why are there a hoard of twitchy, kiddie, arcade-y games for consoles and very few slower paced, subtle, nuanced, and generally gameplay-intricate titles? Because, I argue, the console advocates perpetuate this perception.

When you think of consoles you immediately think of sports games and Mario, right? So, what's stopping you to think Uru and Facade as well? Granted, there are console titles that aspire to a deeper level. The Silent Hill series is perhaps the most powerful one, but it's really more an exception than a rule. There's all the Final Fantasy series, but again an exception. The possibilities are there waiting, but the current market - and stigma - prevents people like me from really getting into gaming on consoles. So naturally I look to PC games for that depth of gaming. Not everyone who looks toward consoles are interested in its sports and kiddie games.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by ConcreteRancor

But I've played a lot of both console games and PC games, and I honestly feel that way. There are too many compromises to be made in developing a game for a console. Look at Doom 3 for the X-Box, or Deus Ex 2's controls. Or, horrors, Baldur's Gate for the PS2. It was turned into Diablo!

Console players can think their games are superior, and I don't mind, AS LONG AS THEY'VE PLAYED PC GAMES FIRST! And that is usually the missing element.

For the record, all those games are are PC games that were put on consoles. Clearly they're not in their element. You're fine to prefer playing on a PC, but condescending and hypocritical comments like "I feel sorry for console players who have no idea that there's something better out there, and who honestly think that their games are the best there are" are just laughable and unnecessary. I refer you again to Penny Arcade's thoughts on the matter.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by remixor

For the record, all those games are are PC games that were put on consoles.

Well, for the record, no. Deus Ex 2 was developed simultaneously for the PC and console, and the PC-version of Deus Ex 2 received a lot of flak for the fact that it used an unwieldy, console-like control system. Doom 3 for Xbox is not a direct port of the PC-version either, Vicarious Visions have been very clear on the fact that they're making a console game. Though I don't know why we're talking about it here, as it's not out yet for the Xbox.