[Ninja Dodo]

America's the first country to actually put the damn idea to practical use.

Meh... by having political prisoners and prisoners of war tortured in Cuba and Iraq? Through collateral damage?

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

But luckily it has gone a long way to this day.

True, Greece did not start with a very fair democracy and things have certainly changed since then, but not all that much for the better, just taking the US as an example...

People are actively discouraged from voting, to start with by having to register in the first place, but also by making registering more difficult than it needs to be and sometimes even actively blocking people from registering.

The US election has nill to do with policy and competence and is purely about who can look best on tv and throw the most mud at his opponent without getting caught. It's a stupid popularity contest.

Added to that that in this particular case the voting system was developed by Bush partisans, there is no objectivity whatsoever and the entire democratic process in the US today is basically a joke.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Meh... by having political prisoners and prisoners of war tortured in Cuba and Iraq? Through collateral damage?

Hey, don't start with me. Every developed country has had its share of bloody, inhumane acts in its history. Including yours.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Blame it on the Puritanical tight-assed nature of Americans. For some reason everything has to be tied to 'what God would want' or something. Self-righteous pricks.

that is one of the reason why i'm not a republican, seperation betwen chruch and state just does'nt seem to exist like it was intended.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

Meh... by having political prisoners and prisoners of war tortured in Cuba and Iraq? Through collateral damage?

Dude why hating against America. No one is saying that America today has the best foreign policy, but you are making it sound like America is the worst super power in existance. Actually let me recap that at least in America, we protest and get a shot at changing the government. Hmmm England you say? Did you forget that this small island colonized the whole world at one point, turning everyone into their slaves. Human rights my ass, let's talk about the Soviet Union and their human rights. Or the french when they were colonizing the whole world. Hmmm germany. If they got their way, we'd all be non-existant. I wish every super power at its peak at least gave a shit as the people in America do.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

I know this was kind of a joke, but some spiffy things were invented somewhere else. The Internet for example! It was invented in Austria. At the CERN Institute.
Sorry, just had to mention that.


-

Ok, but can you deny the contributions of America in technology? I mean the biggest driver for where we are today in terms of technology is America.

[Ninja Dodo]

Touché.

Both England where I'm currently studying and Holland where I'm from have done appalling things.


BUT...

The difference is that this crap is going on today and something needs to be done about it, whereas the crimes you refer to are in the past.

Note any criticism of America as a country on my part is really a criticism of its current government. I do believe 49% of Americans are sensible, you know...

[Catbert]

My country doesn't have the Patriot Act and when the government screws up, everyone punishes them in the next elections. That's two contraries for you, mista.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

The difference is that this crap is going on today and something needs to be done about it, whereas the crimes you refer to are in the past.

Oh, so you're saying that whatever past atrocities that have been committed by any powerful state - The British Empire, French, China, Germany, etc. - doesn't count anymore? So you can't give a damn about millions of Jews massacred, or Africans enslaved by the Dutch, or peaceful passifist Indians shot down by the British, or the Japanese troops impaling Filipino babies in rural villages (I am Filipino myself)? Just because those atrocities happened in the past doesn't make them any less real and tangible than the 'precious' time period we live in. What makes you think your time period is any more important? That's not only shortsighted, it's damn selfish of you.

So okay, according to you, let's give this some time. In 50 years from today, let's meet back here, so we can listen to you proclaim that whatever questionable acts the U.S. has done doesn't matter anymore. It's a date!

Note any criticism of America as a country on my part is really a criticism of its current government.

Hey, that goes the same way for any government and any country. No system of government is perfect, much less sacrosant.

I do believe 49% of Americans are sensible, you know...

We are. I am. Where did you pull that statistic out of? Links, please.

[LauraMac]

Well I for one personally feel like this is a country of scared sheep (led by bushisms) but that doesn't mean I think the country as a whole or even in part isn't worthy of praise as much as criticism.

One thing I will note, while I was in London recently I was amazed at the lightweight quality of the news both in the written and TV press.. Despite the fact that British troops were engaged in Iraq and other highly topical world news events -- the top stories in all the above were the proposed ban on fox hunting and protests against same and whether the olympic medalist celebration was rightly postponed to incorporate the para-olympics winners. say what?

At least in the US the press is amazingly more indepth than that. Even if a majority is nervously light on the right wing side of things.

That being said, all super powers, to me, commit "super wrongs" along with their "super rights". Just the way it goes. And no history should ever be forgotten or taken lightly. Remembering is the only way to slowly creep towards something better.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by NinjaDodo

Hmm yes, the US allows you the freedom to get screwed up the ass by huge corporations. Criticism of the government is frowned upon and if you're a foreigner or a muslim you pretty much have no rights.

The U.S. also allows you the freedom to organize class action lawsuits to counterscrew those huge corporations up the ass. And I'd rather take getting a bad look from the government any time over getting shot or mysteriously vanishing in the night just for my criticisms, like what happens in countries like Pakistan, China, or Iran.

Also, did you know that one reason many Turkish women (and women of other Muslim countries) come to the U.S. to study at university is because the U.S. doesn't care whether they wear head coverings? Whereas in France it's now illegal to wear it in schools?

[EasilyConfused]

Originally Posted by LauraMac

One thing I will note, while I was in London recently I was amazed at the lightweight quality of the news both in the written and TV press.. Despite the fact that British troops were engaged in Iraq and other highly topical world news events -- the top stories in all the above were the proposed ban on fox hunting and protests against same and whether the olympic medalist celebration was rightly postponed to incorporate the para-olympics winners. say what?

Unless you have spent more than a couple of weeks in the UK I think it can be a little hard to have much perspective on this. I lived there for three years altogether and found the place a lot more free than America.

For one thing, yes, most of the papers were sucky, but the Financial Times and the Economist are great. But the television news programs AREN'T crap, they are much, much, much better than they are here. Most people in England know--HAVE to know--something about a country OTHER than England. How many people in America do? The papers and networks here have massively scaled back their coverage of international news. People are always asking why other countries hate us. Um, at least the English KNOW why other countries hate them (because of their history of imperialism etc. etc. etc.) As for fox hunting, it's not a dumb topic, it's a real political issue there. 1) It involves animals being torn apart, while still alive, by dogs, for fun. 2) The economy of many parts of rural Britain allegedly depends on it. It's not that different from a headline story about the spotted owl (which was a big controversy here) or restoring coyotes or wolves to national parks, or something. As for the quality of the press here, I think there are some great magazines and papers. But the lead story on the news here yesterday as far as I can tell was the post-Thanksgiving shopping day and how much it was likely to net retailers--even though it was only half over. Oh, so THAT's more important than the war in Iraq?

Second, the place as far as I could tell was a lot more tolerant of other races than here--I saw tons more interracial couples and so on. That might not be true outside of London and I know England has its racial problems. But if you compare them to those on the continent, I don't think they're half as bad.

And third, and this is true of Europe in general, yeah, the economies might not be as ginormous as the US's, but they're a lot more fair. People can get health care. Executives don't make hundreds of times more than the people who work for them.

I saw as many political freedoms when I was living in England as I do here (I don't know about now--things are screwed up here now, and maybe they're screwed up there.) But those aren't the only kinds of freedoms that matter, either. There's no one perfect society, I'm not pretending that England is the promised land (I just liked it better for me--fools wouldn't give me a visa.) But what I hate about a lot of Americans is that they act like America is the BEST country out there when it's just not true. Other countries are at least, you know, in the running for acceptable countries. Other countries have above third-world infant mortality rates. Neat things like that.

And just because Francis Scott Key wrote that we were the land of the free and the home of the brave, as someone else pointed out, in 1814 doesn't make it true today. He was watching the British bomb us. Of course he was annoyed.

Whew. It felt good to get that out. Sorry, LauraMac--didn't mean to rant AT you, your post just triggered a pre-existing rant that I didn't know was there.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

Unless you have spent more than a couple of weeks in the UK I think it can be a little hard to have much perspective on this. I lived there for three years altogether and found the place a lot more free than America.

For one thing, yes, most of the papers were sucky, but the Financial Times and the Economist are great. But the television news programs AREN'T crap, they are much, much, much better than they are here. Most people in England know--HAVE to know--something about a country OTHER than England. How many people in America do? The papers and networks here have massively scaled back their coverage of international news. People are always asking why other countries hate us. Um, at least the English KNOW why other countries hate them (because of their history of imperialism etc. etc. etc.) As for fox hunting, it's not a dumb topic, it's a real political issue there. 1) It involves animals being torn apart, while still alive, by dogs, for fun. 2) The economy of many parts of rural Britain allegedly depends on it. It's not that different from a headline story about the spotted owl (which was a big controversy here) or restoring coyotes or wolves to national parks, or something. As for the quality of the press here, I think there are some great magazines and papers. But the lead story on the news here yesterday as far as I can tell was the post-Thanksgiving shopping day and how much it was likely to net retailers--even though it was only half over. Oh, so THAT's more important than the war in Iraq?

Second, the place as far as I could tell was a lot more tolerant of other races than here--I saw tons more interracial couples and so on. That might not be true outside of London and I know England has its racial problems. But if you compare them to those on the continent, I don't think they're half as bad.

And third, and this is true of Europe in general, yeah, the economies might not be as ginormous as the US's, but they're a lot more fair. People can get health care. Executives don't make hundreds of times more than the people who work for them.

I saw as many political freedoms when I was living in England as I do here (I don't know about now--things are screwed up here now, and maybe they're screwed up there.) But those aren't the only kinds of freedoms that matter, either. There's no one perfect society, I'm not pretending that England is the promised land (I just liked it better for me--fools wouldn't give me a visa.) But what I hate about a lot of Americans is that they act like America is the BEST country out there when it's just not true. Other countries are at least, you know, in the running for acceptable countries. Other countries have above third-world infant mortality rates. Neat things like that.

And just because Francis Scott Key wrote that we were the land of the free and the home of the brave, as someone else pointed out, in 1814 doesn't make it true today. He was watching the British bomb us. Of course he was annoyed.

Whew. It felt good to get that out. Sorry, LauraMac--didn't mean to rant AT you, your post just triggered a pre-existing rant that I didn't know was there.

I agree with you on the media. I've been to Europe before, and I like BBC. It is not as biased as Fox for example. And American news isolates Americans from the rest of the world.

But I don't agree with everything else.

Europe is more tolerant than the US? You are kidding me right? Like trep said, muslim women in the US are allowed to wear veils and practice their religoun freely. In France they are forcing them to take off their veils and forcing xtians to take off big crosses. Actually Americans are originally english who were persecuted in their own land, so they fled somewhere safe.

I truly believe this is the land of the free. It opened its arms to every single race out there. Its amazing how many different people we have and different races, and they all tend to live happily. It is the land of oppurtunities too, because it gives everyone the oppurtunity to become successful.

As far as health care goes, I think it is better to make it private. This way you get better quality health care. In canada, the wait sometimes to get medical attention is very long because of the number of people in line to be treated. All respectable companies here usually provide health care.

[LauraMac]

Well I didn't mean that fox hunting or any other issue was dumb. But I am saying to me there seemed a level of self censorship even in the BBC presentations that wasn't as evident in BBC feeds I watch regularly in the US. I also think it was most evident in London. Then there is that little matter of it being illegal to speak ill of the queen. No one is above or beyond criticism here in the US - and those remarks (regardless of how harsh or even lewd) can not be penalized by the govt. (at least not yet) for example only a civilian or private citizen has the legal right to sue even for libel/slander.

That being said, I agree with all else you said about prejudices and other attitudes in general, (in general is key) for all the europeans I know and have known over the last google years have all had some prejudice in specific. I encountered a great deal of prejudice for a long while against Moroccons in Paris, not sure if this still prevails. UK folks, well many carry a superior attitude towards europeans in general. Neapolitans feel the rest of Italy just doesn't quite measure up and so on. Prejudice (whether hidden, politely served up or yelled in the streets) is a human reality and favors no one place over another. It is just the focal point of that bias that carries local flavor.

And I will also admit to my own prejudice. In most ways, I found greater comfort and sense of belonging in europe. Always have. But that doesn't mean I do not have a love of many things about my birth country. I was really just putting forth one small one.

and for the rant that got stirred up ,,, good for you! I am glad that you felt motivated to speak up passionately. Hey, you know what..it's my first *hey you made me want to rant!* reply here. Feels kind of special. 8-)

[Ninja Dodo]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Hey, that goes the same way for any government and any country. No system of government is perfect, much less sacrosant.

Yeah, I know. I was just saying don't take my comments personally.

Oh, so you're saying that whatever past atrocities that have been committed by any powerful state - The British Empire, French, China, Germany, etc. - doesn't count anymore?

ARGH! No no no! Trep you are totally misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying the past doesn't count or matter - I am personally deeply ashamed of some of the things my countrymen have done (I mean, we invented apartheid :eek: ) - but what I am saying is that the past cannot be changed whereas the present can.

You guys or the UN or SOMEONE can get Bush the **** out of there so all this will stop.

Also, did you know that one reason many Turkish women (and women of other Muslim countries) come to the U.S. to study at university is because the U.S. doesn't care whether they wear head coverings? Whereas in France it's now illegal to wear it in schools?

Yes. The thing is it applies to all prominent religious symbols. It's not singling out muslims and the intention is not to supress anyone but to ensure a secular atmosphere in schools. I think it's a bit fascist and unecessary, but it's a debatable issue.

We are. I am.

I know.

((( sensible americans )))

Anyway...

- a link -

It's now 48% though, apparently.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Ok, but can you deny the contributions of America in technology? I mean the biggest driver for where we are today in terms of technology is America.

Designed by all the Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. Asian people who have moved to America. The greatest technological advancements after WW2 were by Germans who had moved to America.

[Ninja Dodo]

The U.S. also allows you the freedom to organize class action lawsuits to counterscrew those huge corporations up the ass.

It's kind of difficult though when those same corporations own the government or worse are the government *cough*Cheney*cough* ...

[Bastich]

Personally, I think countries should be judged purely on the quality of their porn.

[EasilyConfused]

LauraMac and SoccerDude, I totally agree with you on headscarves, but as far as I understand that's mostly in France (and the Germans aren't treating their Turkish immigrants wonderfully either.) I mean, LEGAL nastiness to schoolchildren based on the excuse that "schools are secular" is just a French thing. I also encountered disgusting racism when I lived in Paris, I just didn't want to rant about that because it was a more negative rant against another country, whereas I figure ranting against my own is okay. In fact, I think despite the horrible history of racism here, America has at least confronted it and discussed it in ways some places haven't--or haven't had to yet because they haven't historically had the same variety of people inside their borders that we have and that Canada (mega melting pot in places) has.

BTW, I think it's bad manners to speak ill of the Queen, but I don't know if you can get arrested for it, unless you are Irish and look awfully suspicious. It's illegal to even jokingly threaten the life of the President here. Just try it near a Secret Service agent.

As I said, I don't think the US is AWFUL. But I think that it's not like it's hands-down "The Best" and there's no question about it. We have some good ideals, but lots of other countries share them--as other folks have pointed out, many of our ideals were things we borrowed from the French and the English. And since we were the first ones to try them out in practice--to try a self-governing democracy--there are lots of things that in my opinion we didn't get right. Now this is a huge sacred cow--ooh, don't mess with the Constitution. But the way I think of it, our government was designed in order to keep it from doing much. The Framers didn't want it to be very powerful, so they made it pretty inefficient. That's good if you want to keep one person from appropriating control of all branches of government, sending the economy into a nosedive, launching us into a scary war with no exit strategy based on false information, and generally keeping the government's activities secret, because, you know, that would never happen, there are all sorts of checks and balances built into the system. Oh wait--nevermind. But it's not that great if you are actually in favor of democracy, in the sense of passing laws that super-majorities of Americans want.

I also just think it's cool that as one commentator was pointing out during this election cycle, the British PM has to answer questions every week or fortnight or whatever it is. Can you imagine ANY U.S. President--Johnson or Nixon or Carter or Reagan or Clinton, not to mention the current President--having to answer the tough questions of the public's representatives on a regular basis? That would be pretty darn interesting. I know there's a lot of bluster and showmanship during those sessions, but Tony Blair has to stand up and defend every scandal and crappy decision that his government makes in public, which is not that bad a thing.

[RLacey]

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

but Tony Blair has to stand up and defend every scandal and crappy decision that his government makes in public, which is not that bad a thing.

If only. If you've ever listened to Prime Minister's Questions, you'll know that a certain Mr Blair likes specifically NOT answering questions. It's in his nature, as a lawyer, to just start slating the Conservatives every time they criticise him. Which is getting a little tired now - he's had almost two parliamentary terms to fix the 'problems', and yet he's still blaming Thatcher.

Go Tories!

With apologies for the Anti-Labour bias. But I don't like them.

Originally Posted by Bastich

Personally, I think countries should be judged purely on the quality of their porn.

that quote shall go down in history!