[AFGNCAAP]

Welcome to the forum, TangentBlack. I like your description of noir movement (as long as we don't treat it as an be-all, end-all definition). However, I have issues with two of your points:

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

In any case, the protagonist always has a major character flaw which leads to ruin. It might be that the character is a small-time criminal, adulterer, thief, of a weak-will, etc. The character also may appear to be honest at the outset of the film. In these cases, as the story unfolds, the protagonist becomes tainted by some dishonest deed and is sent to his doom.

I disagree. Don't you consider novels by Dashiell Hammet and Raymond Chandler to be canonical examples of the style (heck, the adaptation of Maltese Falcon is often refererred to as the movie that started the film noir)? But their protagonists are nothing short of chivalrous (and, arguably, it's the higher-than-average moral standards rather than "character flaw" that often make them suffer eventually).

Beneath a Steel Sky has noirish qualities, but is not a noir. You may not be able to tell, but a STEEL sky isn't the most pleasent conditions a city can be under. The color steel and the material is hard and stark, similar to a noir. The character is running from the law, and the city is a smoky wreck of violence and a facade for the rich to hid behind their own corruption.

It's been some time since I played it, but that sounds nothing like Beneath a Steel Sky. Also, the sole motif of running from the law doesn't prove anything - the City is under a tight totallitarian regime, which changes the meaning of "law" into its own parody. In noir we see countless degenerated law officers, but the law itself (as a set of rules) is rarely criticised. Totally unlike in political dystopias, where the cops most faithful to spirit of the law are actually the most dangerous or despicable. Is 1984 by George Orwell noir, or even noirish? I don't think so.


EDIT: As we have failed to mention Discworld at all for something like thirty posts, I say let's move to Chit Chat, shall we? When the game does go freeware, the subject is bound to resurface in a new thread anyway.

[Jazhara7]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Are you sure Noir films had to have Famme Fatals? Also, I think Payne 2 is considered a 'Noir love story' because the Mona is an enemy he falls for. The game doesn't feel like a Noir, more action. But I guess, seeing that Noir films are a sub-genre then Noir-action can be a sub within a sub.

*thinks* Well, Disney's Atlantis had Helga. Then again, it was only Noir in parts, and was more of an Adventure (hence the extra-wide screen).


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[After a brisk nap]

No, you misunderstand, TangentBlack. I am very familiar with film noir, and have no problem following your argument. I was just saying that in your initial explanation, you said a few things you probably didn't mean, like the idea that a noir necessarily has to be set in the 40s or 50s. It's also not universally true that the main character is "sent to his doom" in the end. In, for example, the classic film noir The Big Sleep, Bogart's Philip Marlowe does get dragged into some ethically questionable activities, but by the end of the movie order, honor and morality appears to be restored, and the detective gets the girl.

Or take Kiss Me Deadly, where it's not one of Mike Hammer's many flaws that leads him to the final apocalyptic confrontation (however it turns out, depending on the cut of the film), but rather his loyalty to (or love for?) his assistant. Kiss Me Deadly also demonstrates that it's blatantly not true that brightly lit scenes are not used in film noir, with its several exterior daylight scenes. (Much later, the neo-noir Insomnia even managed to use light in a similar way to how darkness was used in the classic noirs.)

This is not to quibble with your argument in general. Yes, classic film noir (and the only films accepted as true noir by some critics) were movies made in the 40s and 50s, set in their own present. Later noir (neo-noir), made with awareness of the genre, often set their action back in the same time period (Chinatown, Angel Heart, etc.). You might call it retro noir. However, they're just as often set in the present, the way the original films noir were (Body Heat, Insomnia (1997), etc.). And yes, the moral ruin of the protagonist is a major theme of film noir, but it's not an invariable constant. So I was merely looking for slightly more precision, not a wholesale revision of your position.

The top few hits on Google, by the way, are a surprisingly good selection of resources on film noir.

When it comes to tech noir (or future noir, the term I've heard more often) and cyberpunk, I have more issues with your account. First of all, I'm not sure it's meaningful to compare and contrast the two. Future noir is primarily a cinematic term, while cyberpunk is originally a literary category. In addition, cyberpunk has deep roots in film noir and the hardboiled detective and pulp fiction that noir grew out of. As a result, cyberpunk and tech noir often overlap, perhaps more often than not. For instance, Blade Runner is both the future noir film and also often thought of as the archetype of cyberpunk in cinema (though some argue that the lack of "cyberspace" technology excludes it. Ironically, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? did feature something very much like cyberspace, although it was written years before cyberpunk took form as a distinct strain of science fiction). Also, you group PKD with tech noir, but he's practically a patron saint of the cyberpunks (in the preface to Mirrorshades, Bruce Sterling writes: "the cyberpunks treasure a special fondness for SF's native visionaries: [...] the reality games of Philip K. Dick". You just have to trace The Matrix back to Total Recall and "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale" to see how much of Dick there is in cyberpunk).

Also, your descriptions of the supposed differences between the two don't completely make sense. In what way does Minority Report portray the world as "a retrograding wasteland of death and destruction"? (I presume you're talking about the movie, since the original short story isn't really a sufficient basis for debate.) And as for cyberpunk, your list of technologies seems completely arbitrary. Various cyberpunk settings have included and excluded genetic engineering, articifial intelligence and cloning, as well as others like cybernetic implants, nanotech, robotics, advanced pharmaceuticals, nuclear technology, time machines, teleportation devices, and almost any other piece of science fiction gear you can think of. Since one of the hallmarks of cyberpunk is that it's postmodernist, it borrows freely from everything that has been done in SF. You're also overlooking sub-genres like steampunk, which usually don't advance science very far beyond what we know today, though the technology is different.

Finally, I am not convinced by your description of the role of technology in cyberpunk (by the way, you mean Snow Crash, not Snowbound; Neuromancer, not Nueromancer; and I can't make sense of "New Latania" at all):

This is a technology designed to keep people within the 'system' that dominates the lives of most 'ordinary' people. This is the science of controlling human functions and of electronic, mechanical and biological control systems designed to replace them.

The traditional cyberpunk environment is chaotic, and all players essentially opportunistic. There are no grand conspiracies to "keep people within the 'system'", technology is created by competing multinational corporations, organized crime, government factions and military or para-military organizations, as well as private individuals and independent groups (hackers, punks). Its purpose is rarely anything more than competitive advantage; the effect on regular people is essentially irrelevant. Science and technology, then, are simply amoral, not particularly tools of oppression or conformity.

[TangentBlack]

Thanks for replying to my posts, and thank you for my welcome. First off, I would like to say that my definition of noir there is gathered as a general defininition from years of watching, playing, and writing noir. Of course there are outlying demonstrations that prove my definition false. In no way should my definition of noir/film noir/cyberpunk/tech noir be the end all to the topic. The reason why I used constant words such as always and never is to spur your opinion on the topic. I respect your opinion and hold it highly. Also, and in no way am I trying to criticize anyones knowledge of noir. I love benefiting from the knowledge of others and I learn from disscussions such as these. To the topic of the Maltese Falcon, Bogart is what a screenwriter may call a half and half, that is to say he is an antihero at moments and is also a hero at times. Ultimately, he becomes the hero, yes, but his morals do not restrict him from playing on both sides of the law. Now this may not be a flaw, but it is not in any way a complete Mr. Nice Guy approach. Before the novel began (also, it has been a while since I have seen the movie, so bear with me), while Miles Archer was still alive, Sam Spade was having an affair with his wife, Iva. After Miles’s death, Spade goes to lengths to avoid her. So in this sense, he does have internal demons he conquers before pursueing justice.In the book, Hammett invented the hardboiled private eye genre, introducing many of the elements that readers have come to expect from detective stories: the mysterious, alluring woman whose love may be a trap; the search for an exotic icon that people are willing to kill for; the detective who plays on both sides of the law to find the truth, but who ultimately is driven by a strong moral code. The protagonist is essentially good, but a flaw is always there to create inner turmoil. The flaw can be something small as uncertainty, doubt, or fear. It is not always murdering and violence, sex or lust.
Beneath a Steel Sky is one I have not played for a while also, and I cannot say anything to rebute on George Orwell's 1984, (the only book by him I have read is Animal Farm), but the game I believe was done in a noirish fashion. The illustrations, dark and forboding, and the cynical and mundane routine of the daily life in the city is also clearly displayed in the game. Like the film Dark City, the main character challenges the system that maintains control over it. It isn't the concept of challenging the system that is noir, because that could possibley be the Underdog story, but it is the style in which BASS does it that is reminicent of noir. So I guess you are right in that aspect AFGNCAAP, that the main intention of BASS is not a noir topic, but I beg to differ on the genre it uses as a medium to it's story. Thanks agian for your response, I value your opinion.

Snarky, you are right, I do not mean that ALL noir must be set in that period, because of the myraid subbreeds existing within noir, but that true noir exist within those set time periods. Not all subbreeds of noir must be this way. I side with many critics in the sense that tech noir resides in neo-noir, but by technicalities and systematic elimination, they are almost in and of themselves. This is because there is noir, and to its right you have crime genre, and to its left you have mystery. Under noir, neo noir rests, and under neo-noir, is tech noir.

I have always refered to Dick as a tech noir writer because so many of his films that HE approved of have the environment of a noir and a sci fi approach as well. Screamers, Minority Report, Bladerunner, and the TV version of Total Recall. The creator of cyberpunk, William Gibson, cannot even identify cyberpunk.The best he can say is that it is what he calls EDGE. But it never hurts to try to define it. Phillip Dick lacked in the sciences that Gibson created and maintained throughout his works. New Latina is also called Mona Lisa Overdrive in America. This Gibson story is weak if anything but still is quiet cyberpunk, as follows Neuromancer, (my spelling is not the best, english is my second language)

"There are no grand conspiracies to "keep people within the 'system'", technology is created by competing multinational corporations, organized crime, government factions and military or para-military organizations, as well as private individuals and independent groups (hackers, punks). Its purpose is rarely anything more than competitive advantage; the effect on regular people is essentially irrelevant."

I cannot say that the purpose of cyberpunk is providing examples of the competitive edge of hackers, punks, and multicorperations. Propaganda in Russia is different than America but equally recognizable; I do not think that that is the cyberpunks main purpose. Also, I do not see any hackers, punks, or military (save Paycheck) as an in depth topic of Phillip K. Dick. So, according to your definition, the patron saint, Dick, uses technology creation as a means to exemplify compitition? If it is not about the individual conforming to technologies whims, then it is nothing at all. From a literal interpritation, which is what I am assuming you are taking, perhaps companies are out to compete with one another through technology. The deeper meaning I think is much more important. Technology creates a bubble in which people cannot escape from. They must either conform or die. In cyberpunk, the individual is sucked into a world, illegal or not, that has changed and often become a pathetic vision of a utopia. A utopia where the rich become richer, and the little guys stay little. Take Neuromancer, where Case, the protagonist, feels that the only way to live is through the AI. He is a space cowboy and without his virtual reality, he is incredibly pacified and lonely. The individual is destroyed by his dependence on the technology, and must conform to it in order to feel whole. He is oppressed because he cannot live life without that which is false and fake: virtual. " 'Neuromancer' takes place in the near future, but the novel deals with social processes and social transformations, which have already begun in our time and points out their possible consequences. " (Winter 1996: 3). Also, there is an interesting quote from Phillip K. Dick that I have in an interview in Time Magazine I saved from about twenty-five years ago, "I am a writer, but I am not a good one. I just believe that I can tell stories that a man might in fifty years pull from it a message that has been prophesied for those fifty years. The message is simple. Science, like God, is theory, for no man has absolute proof that every bit of it is universally true. Because of this, theory, like everything manmade, is of err. My writing has been attractive to the fans of the late 1950's noir episodes of crime of corruption. Not all of that is completely similar, but to me, my message is about the sacrifices that man takes to claim he is right. Noir often does such in its own little way. So I suppose I then I write hand in hand with a dying genre called noir. Perhaps what he (Benny Long) said was right as well. I do write in the style known as tech noir, but if I do, I just dabble." It is because of this quote and a few of my own beliefs that I think Dick began a paved road to cyberpunk, but Gibson created the finished product. Neuromancer is cyberpunk, and the epitime of it. Also, for more examples of cyberpunk, read Burning Chrome by Gibson, which is a series of short stories with essentially the same message.

By the way, quoting from your own works is quite legal from where I live. I'd hope my own article is suprisingly resourceful, as you put it, I put some heavy time into it. Virgie Brown aka Mike Irvir Geown, if that acronym that is my name you will be questioning soon is of any help. No hard feelings, eh? I do really appreciate your posts, they are quite stimulating! Hope to talk to you in the future......

[TangentBlack]

Oh, by the way, has anyone heard of the new Dick movie approaching American theatres called "A Scanner Darkly"?

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by TangentBlack

Oh, by the way, has anyone heard of the new Dick movie approaching American theatres called "A Scanner Darkly"?

Not until you mentioned it but I looked at the IMDB page and watched a trailer. It looks fascinating and the 'animation' style is intriguing.

Here's the page for trailer links:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405296/trailers

[Jazhara7]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

Not until you mentioned it but I looked at the IMDB page and watched a trailer. It looks fascinating and the 'animation' style is intriguing.

Here's the page for trailer links:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405296/trailers

It's not actually animation. It's actually normally filmed, and then treated with filters.


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[TangentBlack]

Incredibly done. We have some programs that have somewhat similar filter features at the VGIK, but nothing that can create an animation treatement such as that in our film.

[After a brisk nap]

The director, Richard Linklater, used similar rotoscoping techniques in Waking Life. It allows you to move seamlessly between highly realistic and highly stylized animation, which could come in handy for Scanner.

Keanu!

[TangentBlack]

I find it incredible that the actor Downey Jr. is back in a role. I saw an Entertainment Tonight special that he had been addicted to drugs and jailed.

Another movie you guys should look out for is The Fountain.

[After a brisk nap]

Downey also stars in the movie that occasioned the last discussion we had about film noir around here, Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. That's a really enjoyable flick, which I highly recommend. Not (in my opinion) a film noir, but a cracking hardboiled mystery.

He also has a part in George Clooney's latest directorial effort, Good Night and Good Luck, which has got some good reviews.

I always thought Downey was an immensely talented and charismatic actor, but unfortunately he's more notorious for his drug use than for the work he's done.

[Melanie68]

Babileah, I moved your post to this help thread. Read through that to see if you can get it working in DosBox. I think that's your best bet to get it going.