[Stalkinpanda]

Hey everyone, decided to take up some adventure games again and wanted some advice.
I absolutely hate adventure games with an unwinnable state (especially when it's not clear when it happens). So, I was wondering if you can give me a heads up what kind of games I need to avoid.
Thanks in advance!

[Fien]

Not sure what you mean by "unwinnable". Dead ends (see the comments on Maupiti Island in the thread Who Done It)? Or dying and having to restore a saved game, for instance in the old classic Sierra adventures?

In either case, you can safely play all games made by that other great classic company, LucasArts. Oh, and you'd better give my favorite adventure, The Last Express, a wide berth. It's filled to the brim with dead ends you don't see coming, although I'd rather call them non-optimal endings.

[Josho]

Avoid Infocom’s terrific “Infidel.” It presented the player with a real devil’s choice ending: escape the pyramid without the treasure (which is what you’ve been searching for for the entire game), or get the treasure…and be sealed inside the pyramid forever.

I love the occasional ending like this. They make you think, and they don’t present the world as consisting of a never-ending series of happy endings.

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by Fien

In either case, you can safely play all games made by that other great classic company, LucasArts.

Maniac Mansion has plenty of dead ends. Zak McKracken too, I think. And you can die in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[Stalkinpanda]

Thanks for the quick responses to my question! (good way to get introduced to this community )
I was referring to the state in an adventure game where you can continue playing the game (no dead scene/alternative or bad ending) but because you missed something in a previous scene the game becomes unfinishable. This situation forces you to load a previous save or else you're stuck in an unending situation.
While I was searching the web I found this site that gives a list of games and examples of unwinnable states:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nnableByDesign

@ Fien: I was thinking of giving last express a go. As far as I know that game has a dynamic time system which can cause you to miss certain items/clues. Is it also possible to get stuck (the situation adressed above) or does the game automatically progress throughout the story towards one of several endings?

[Origami]

Even though Last Express has it, it's still a highly recommended game. You can rewind the time in the game so it never becomes a drawback.

Tex Murphy has what you don't like.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by Josho

Avoid Infocom’s terrific “Infidel.” It presented the player with a real devil’s choice ending: escape the pyramid without the treasure (which is what you’ve been searching for for the entire game), or get the treasure…and be sealed inside the pyramid forever.

I love the occasional ending like this. They make you think, and they don’t present the world as consisting of a never-ending series of happy endings.

Infidel is one Infocom game I didn’t finish, but the FMV game Golden Gate played a similar trick: you’re looking for hidden treasure and when you’ve finally found it in a cave, you drown. The last thing you see is the seawater closing over your head.

Most, if not all, text adventures from the ’80s and early ’90s are extremely unforgiving. I loved them then, still love them now, but the word unforgiving really doesn’t begin to describe it. Infocom too, but Magnetic Scrolls was by far the worst offender.

[rant on]
In Corruption you can and must follow people around to see what they’re up to and collect evidence of corruption. If you don’t follow your partner in the first ten moves of the game and collect an item he hides, you won’t be able to finish the game. No warning, no hints how many objects you’re supposed to find, nada. Figure it out all by yourself. Grrrr. The absolute nadir for me was Jinxter with its theme of luck. Lots of puzzles that had an easy solution, like cutting barbed wire with a pair of shears you’d picked up elsewhere. Piece of cake. But I got my hand a bit scratched in the process and the game told me: “Suddenly you feel less lucky.” That was supposed to be a hint (too subtle for me!) that I should restore the game and look for an alternate solution, a more complicated one of course. Why should I? There was no way of knowing that in the end game you would need “all the luck you can get”. I guess that was Magnetic Scrolls’ definition of replayability. I call it schadenfreude. Criminal.
[rant off]

Oscar:

Maniac Mansion has plenty of dead ends. Zak McKracken too, I think. And you can die in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

Really? I stand corrected. Haven’t played Zak, didn’t finish Maniac Mansion and I don’t remember dying in The Last Crusade. High time for a replay!

Stalkinpanda:

I was thinking of giving last express a go. As far as I know that game has a dynamic time system which can cause you to miss certain items/clues. Is it also possible to get stuck (the situation adressed above) or does the game automatically progress throughout the story towards one of several endings?

Yes, the game progresses to a *premature* ending. Only one good ending at the end of the journey and lots of suboptimal ones along the way, even very early ones. For instance, you get killed or arrested. Problem is that you have to figure out where and especially when you went wrong. The real-time game has no save option but you can “rewind” the clock. You can do that yourself, but it’s much better to let the game do it for you because you will automatically be taken back to a time where the game is still winnable.

The Last Express is a fantastic game and the suboptimal endings are great to watch too, so if you don’t mind the rewinding part, give it a try! You can get hints here at the forum.

EDIT: I posted the above rant before I saw your link. Thanks, nice list of unwinnable adventures!

EDIT2: The Tex Murphy games can become unwinnable?? Please elaborate, Ori.

[ozzie]

I guess he means the first two Tex Murphy games, "Mean Streets" and "Martian Memorandum".
You should be wary of early Sierra adventures. Until the early 90s many of them contained quite devious dead ends.
Even highly regarded Gabriel Knight and King's Quest VI contain some (I think only one in the former), but I guess you could describe them as fair dead ends. Well, partly at least.

[Stalkinpanda]

I heard the same about the Tex Murphy games.
Most noticeably the first ones (Mean Streets and Martian Memorandum). Pandora Directive doesn't have an unwinnable state as such but is a major bother to get the perfect ending based on the unpredictable nature of the conversation tree.

Edit: @ Ozzie: Finished Gabriel Knight 1 already (think I remember the dead end you are referring to) but dread to start the King's Quest Games based on the reputation they have for unwinnable states. Don't think I've ever really tried one of the classic Sierra ones now that I think about it.

I also have my eyes on Shadow of the Comet but read conflicting reports on that game (most noticably if it has unwinnable states). Anyone have experience with it?

[Origami]

Yes, I was referring to the first two Tex Murphy games. From what I have heard you can create an unwinnable situation in those games.

[Dara100]

Who can forget the inimitable ending(s) in Myst? Choose wrong - although if you do you are probably a psycopath or have just not been paying attention - and you face an extremely claustrophobic fate.

$Deity$ help you if your last save was before the wonderful maze!

(I actually loved the game and highly recommend it).



Edit: to obscure the ending further

[TimovieMan]

Originally Posted by Oscar

Maniac Mansion has plenty of dead ends. Zak McKracken too, I think. And you can die in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

Maniac Mansion and Zak McKracken have a few dead ends, yes, but The Last Crusade doesn't. You can die in a fight occasionally (the same goes for Fate of Atlantis), but there aren't really any dead ends.
The only thing that could count as a "dead end" is missing one vital clue that makes determining which grail is correct in the endgame harder (meaning you'll have to guess, you won't know for sure). And that dead end only happens if you destroy a bridge in the Venetian catacombs before crossing it to look what's beyond...

Early Sierra was filled with dead ends, yes. One specific dead end in Larry 2 made me quit that game altogether (I had missed some swimming trunks at the bottom of the pool on the cruise ship and I needed them a LOT later in the game)...

[Dara100]

Just remembered in the strangely captivating Dark Seed there is an invisible bobby pin that must be only one pixel wide on the floor. Miss it and the game is completely unplayable after a point.

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Stalkinpanda

I also have my eyes on Shadow of the Comet but read conflicting reports on that game (most noticably if it has unwinnable states). Anyone have experience with it?

I played Shadow of the Comet. I think I got trapped in two dead ends there. These are annoying, and if I hadn't consulted a walkthrough I'd have been very frustrated. I started peeking into a walkthrough before I even encountered a dead end, so when I got stuck in one I didn't hesitate for long before seeking the help I needed.
I think Shadow of the Comet is worth it. It has a lot going for it, but it isn't perfect, by far.

[Stalkinpanda]

Originally Posted by ozzie

I played Shadow of the Comet. I think I got trapped in two dead ends there. These are annoying, and if I hadn't consulted a walkthrough I'd have been very frustrated. I started peeking into a walkthrough before I even encountered a dead end, so when I got stuck in one I didn't hesitate for long before seeking the help I needed.
I think Shadow of the Comet is worth it. It has a lot going for it, but it isn't perfect, by far.

Thanks for the answer. Do you know when you're in a dead end though (in the form of a death scene or whatever) or is the player left to guess? I am a major fan of the Lovecraftian/Chtulhu Mythos though so I think I'll play it regardless

[Zorkman]

Originally Posted by Josho

Avoid Infocom’s terrific “Infidel.” It presented the player with a real devil’s choice ending: escape the pyramid without the treasure (which is what you’ve been searching for for the entire game), or get the treasure…and be sealed inside the pyramid forever.

I love the occasional ending like this. They make you think, and they don’t present the world as consisting of a never-ending series of happy endings.

You learn something every day. I played this game years ago, and always remember the great ending of you getting sealed in the pyramid with your treasure. Great ending. I never knew you could leave without it.

I agree that the ending although not pleasant made a change from all the happy ones when you go of into the sunset with either your treasure or the Princess (they were not PC then).

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Stalkinpanda

Thanks for the answer. Do you know when you're in a dead end though (in the form of a death scene or whatever) or is the player left to guess? I am a major fan of the Lovecraftian/Chtulhu Mythos though so I think I'll play it regardless

Now that I think about it, I'm sure there was only one dead end.
Basically you could escape the catacombs without taking certain objects with you. Granted, the reason you went there is to get these objects...I guess I didn't pick them up because I didn't realize that these were the objects I needed to find. Or because I was distracted by the monster that was in the same room with the objects but doesn't attack until you leave. It just taunts you patiently. Anyway, my memory is too foggy to be certain.

It might have been my own fault for getting stuck in the dead end. It's not the most unfair of its kind. For whatever reason I didn't realize until much later that I was in a dead end, even though it was clear that I needed the objects, I think. Ah, I can't remember...

[Oscar]

Originally Posted by Fien

Oscar:

I don’t remember dying in The Last Crusade. High time for a replay!

I envy you - A sawblade trying to cut off your head would leave most people scarred for life!

[Annacat]

Originally Posted by Dara100

Who can forget the inimitable ending(s) in Myst? Choose wrong - although if you do you are probably a psycopath or have just not been paying attention - and you face an extremely claustrophobic fate.

Those are endings, though, not continuing the game in an unwinnable state. Generally saving before trying a game ending is a good idea, because even if you did it right, you may want to try the bad ones after.

In terms games that can actually become unwinnable mid-play rather than just having bad ending options, a couple of additional examples are...

Titanic: Adventure Out of Time - It's still worth playing, in my opinion, even if this is a pet peeve for you, because all the ending permutations are interesting, but it's possible to make moves fairly early on (and these aren't always obvious) that make it impossible to get the good ending much later; you can still finish but you can't win. A guide is actually handy to make sure you understand the variations.

Return to Zork - There are multiple ways to get through the game, but anything that results in premature loss of inventory items can render the game unwinnable. Two ways this can happen are to have The Guardian come take your items as punishment for doing something "illegal" (although the game interface allows you to do it) or attempting to combine the matches with any other inventory item which results in the item being burnt. Generally you can avoid the unwinnable states in Return by knowing they exist, and avoiding a few specific actions that can trigger them.

[Schneckchen ^.^]

Grim Fandango. The entire game is a DEAD end.