[Phaid]

Originally Posted by orient

Yeah -- I mean for me, Mass Effect, The Witcher and Fallout 3 delivered really compelling narrative experiences.

The advantage these RPGs have is simple: they're reactive, organic and open-ended, as opposed to rigid, pre-rendered and predetermined. They have more meaningful choices for you as the player. They have mechanics that are deeper than an inventory system and rubbing items together.

Adventure games have a steep hill to climb now that storytelling in games has improved with the aforementioned series'.

I'm going to de-rail the topic a bit here, but it has to be said. I truly belive you're not being serious. Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are as linear, predetermined and devoid of any "organic" feeling as action games can be. Because that's what they are - action games with RPG elements tossed in to spice up the gameplay.
The only thing ME has done right is its cinematic nature - camera work during dialogues and cutscenes. That's where novelty ends. Story? Cliche and predictable, especially if you've played previous Bioware games. Choices? Meaningless, nothing you do matters in the end.

Fallout 3 is the most disappointing game I've played in years, it feels like an Oblivion mod not worthy of carrying the Fallout name. Pathetic, laughable, linear main quest and dialogues written by a five-year-old during lunch break plus poorly designed world and dumbed down mechanics. Again, your actions have little to no impact on the game world. Everything this game does is a giant step backwards compared to what Black Isle achieved with Fallout 1&2 or Planescape Torment. Or Troika with Arcanum and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. It's not even debatable.

Honestly, labelling ME and F3 -especially the latter - as some "deep RPGs" with compelling narrative, pinnacles of storytelling is downright laughable in my book. They utilize 3D graphics/ flashy visuals to hide their mediocrity, how can you fall for that?

[Sughly]

Originally Posted by Phaid

I'm going to de-rail the topic a bit here, but it has to be said. I truly belive you're not being serious. Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are as linear, predetermined and devoid of any "organic" feeling as action games can be. Because that's what they are - action games with RPG elements tossed in to spice up the gameplay...

They utilize 3D graphics/ flashy visuals to hide their mediocrity, how can you fall for that?

I considered saying something along those lines, but to be honest I haven't played a great deal of any of these games. That being said, I loved the original Fallouts and could never get into Fallout 3. And from what I've seen with my brother playing ME2 as well as comments from reviews it seems the ultimate story arc remains the same despite choices throughout. Also, Phaid, you put it better than I may have

But I do second this notion based on my experience with them. Even the Uncharted's which I loved were painstakingly linear. The gameplay was seriously lame. People may think it's amazing but I was only there for the characters and story and really couldn't care less about hide-behind-this-crate-shoot-this-guy, followed by jump-onto-bright-red-bar-jump-to-obvious-climbing-bricks. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Again, this is what I was pointing out to begin with. The adventure genre gets hammered as being stuck in the past, but I fail to see how any other genre has transcended old mechanics beyond graphical improvements.

[Luther10]

http://g4tv.com/videos/44242/Sessler...ng/?quality=hd

This video is awesome, all of you watch it NOW...

[orient]

Originally Posted by Phaid

I'm going to de-rail the topic a bit here, but it has to be said. I truly belive you're not being serious. Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are as linear, predetermined and devoid of any "organic" feeling as action games can be. Because that's what they are - action games with RPG elements tossed in to spice up the gameplay.

I fail to see how combat mechanics dictate the linearity of a game. Fallout 3 may have real-time combat, but it's still very non-linear compared to most games. Can you completely ignore the main quest in Call of Duty? Does God of War have a massive, open world to explore? If my choices didn't matter in the original Mass Effect, then why did my decisions affect quest-lines in Mass Effect 2? In Fallout 3, isn't choosing to save or blow up an entire town significant enough for you?

I get it, you see these action/RPG hybrids as watered down versions of the PC classics of yesteryear. Fair enough, but I wasn't comparing these games to other RPGs. I was comparing them to adventure games, and compared to adventure games, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and The Witcher feel epic and open-ended. The game worlds feel alive and lived in.

Originally Posted by Phaid

Honestly, labelling ME and F3 -especially the latter - as some "deep RPGs" with compelling narrative, pinnacles of storytelling is downright laughable in my book. They utilize 3D graphics/ flashy visuals to hide their mediocrity, how can you fall for that?

I didn't say they were "deep RPGs". I said that adventure games have a long way to go if they want to surpass what has been achieved in recent western RPGs, and I stick by that. The majority of traditional adventures released nowadays are average at best, with mediocre plots, flat game worlds and poor dialog/acting. A few stand out like Hotel Dusk, thanks to excellent writing, and Dreamfall -- a testament to how a well-executed 3D world is always better than a flat, pre-rendered one.

[Sughly]

Originally Posted by Luther10

http://g4tv.com/videos/44242/Sessler...ng/?quality=hd

This video is awesome, all of you watch it NOW...

Yeah look I don't disagree with the guy... well I can't, because I haven't played it BUT until we all have a proper go at the title ourselves, this is still one guys interpretation. I don't mean to be so pessimistic because I'm very excited about getting my hands on it and do think it will be good, but I think it's only ground breaking in the sense that some copycat style games may follow it and will possibly become a kind of sub-genre of adventure games. To me, a lot of these experiences he talks about can still be had in any other genre really if they're handled well (which too often these days is not the case).

Look at something like Gabriel Knight for example. It's just one example (the first off the top of my head), but when a snake tackles you down you have a few seconds to respond in a similar fashion to QTE. Though instead of wildly pressing various buttons, you're faced with a situation to logically respond with the environment around you (which is to ultimately hit the fan switch). To me, this situation does the same as what these sequences in Heavy Rain are doing but is somewhat more tactile, and idea for example that could be used more often within titles using traditional adventure mechanics of 'point-and-click' and use this item on that item.

Will I prefer playing games in the future that are full of QTE sequences? No, but I will enjoy them. Will I prefer to play adventure games as they are? If done well, then probably yes. That said, I welcome the possible sub-genre of 'interactive-narrative' games that could follow this.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by orient

I fail to see how combat mechanics dictate the linearity of a game. Fallout 3 may have real-time combat, but it's still very non-linear compared to most games. Can you completely ignore the main quest in Call of Duty? Does God of War have a massive, open world to explore? If my choices didn't matter in the original Mass Effect, then why did my decisions affect quest-lines in Mass Effect 2? In Fallout 3, isn't choosing to save or blow up an entire town significant enough for you?

I think the idea is, though you are right about the world feeling lived in, and that you can explore these worlds in a seemingly non-linear fashion and explore numerous side quests, ultimately you need to go where the game developers want you to go and in the end if you're wanting to unravel the story behind the game then that's where you have to go. Sure, side quests offer more pieces of story and this to me is the best thing about these kinds fo games. But by the end fo the game the side quests are all kind of arbitrary to where the game wanted you to go anyways.

And though I could be wrong, I get the sense (only from watching my brother play) that the elements of ME that carry on to ME2 are quite subtle, such as minor character interactions or deaths that carry on a change of comment or interaction here or there in ME2, but the core story remains unnaffected. It seems to me a kind of illusion of change.

[Gabe]

Heavy rain, hallelujah hours of stressful interactivity.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Reality blurs between Heavy Rain characters and actors | Ars Technica

Heavy Rain relies on its characters to deliver much of the gravity and story of the game, but what you might not know is that the actors often provided both the sound and the face of their characters. How close are the two?

The images below show just how much the character models look like the actors. The resemblance is frightening, particularly how much of a mirror image Sam Douglas is for Scott Shelby.

[Sughly]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Haha, obviously they didn't like Jacqui's hair? Otherwise it's quite... creepy.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Sughly

Haha, obviously they didn't like Jacqui's hair? Otherwise it's quite... creepy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ7wpQGMOBc

For the RPG Mass Effect 2, BioWare also did similar with the character Miranda Lawson being voiced and modeled after Australian actress Yvonne Strzechowski. The original concept had Miranda as a blonde, but as development progressed they decided a dark haired, sexy, and strong willed femme fatale type suited Miranda best. After all, she is supposed to be genetically designed to be the perfect woman. You can see Strzechowski doing the voice work and how it translates in the game in the link I gave above.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Looks like the "experimental" context sensitive control system make take a bit of time to get used to....

[DustyShinigami]

The game seems to be getting great scores/reviews. *sigh* It's a shame this game's only exclusive to the PS3, but... at least there's Alan Wake for me to look forward to.

[Roper Klacks]

The male faces are pretty good, but somehow Madison's face is a bit creepy, looks very masculine and weird. The same happened in Mass Effect 2 with Miranda. I mean Yvonne is an incredible beautifull lady, but Miranda... not really. I guess thats the uncanny valley effect.

[Gabe]

Madison reminded me Kate Walker btw miranda looks like a perfectfish more than a perfect woman

[D.C.]

Wow, there's the movie version cast right there.

Morrigan in Dragon Age also looks a whole lot like Claudia Black, who voices her.

[Fantasysci5]

Wow, that cartoon is freaking hilarious. Is that really how the demo works?

And Claudia Black, I love her.

Man, I really wish I had a PS3...

[Erwin_Br]

*sigh* Another game I hope will be released for the PC as well. I can wait, though... I can wait...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Erwin_Br

*sigh* Another game I hope will be released for the PC as well. I can wait, though... I can wait...

Just keep rooting for it to be a commercial success on the PS3. Maybe then a PC port may happen. I don't know what Sony's track record is on that, though.

Looks like it's getting quite positive reviews...

Metacritic average score: 88/100

Gamepro review score : 100/100

An emotionally engaging thrill-ride from start to finish, Quantic Dream's Heavy Rain is a superbly crafted interactive experience, told expertly through it's stunning visuals and believable characters.

Gamespy review score : 90/100

If you can buy into the idea that the ending you get is your ending, and that your characters are really your characters, then you just might find yourself feeling moved by a videogame.

[D.C.]

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

Wow, that cartoon is freaking hilarious. Is that really how the demo works?

They've exaggerated a lot, but there were a couple a times I was a little confused on what action they meant. It's mostly intuitive, though.

Originally Posted by Fantasysci5

And Claudia Black, I love her.

Agreed.

[orient]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Just keep rooting for it to be a commercial success on the PS3. Maybe then a PC port may happen. I don't know what Sony's track record is on that, though.

I'd say it's more likely to get a PC port if it isn't successful, as a last resort of sorts. In reality though, I don't see it happening either way. Sony funded Heavy Rain so they would have a solid exclusive. They need games like this to push consoles and hopefully get Xbox owners to drop money on a PS3.

Plus, porting from PS3 to PC is a lot harder than Xbox360 to PC, and Sony aren't known for porting their exclusives to PC.

[Linque]

I would be very surprised if this game ever got released on PC.