[Fairygdmther]

While JA+ and Gameboomers can't do polls, I did post one at Mystery Manor, where Jim and I moderate, to see if there is any difference in the results there.

FGM

[mag]

I think the problem with this question is that it implies a dichotomy where one doesn't really exist, or at the very least shouldn't exist. Neither element is more important. You need both. An adventure game is a story told by use of puzzles. Because the puzzles are what move the story forward it may be tempting to think that it is actually the story itself that is the key ingredient. But without puzzles it wouldn't be a game. It would be a movie (or worse, one of those God awful interactive movies like Star Trek: Borg). Having an adventure game without puzzles is like having a book without words. Doesn't really make sense. Both are crucial. The puzzles are what create the story. That's why you hear so many people complaining about puzzles that don't make sense within the context of the game. The puzzles should be seemless, and so in an ideal adventure game there is no difference between the story and the puzzles.

Originally Posted by BacardiJim
Might I suggest off the bat that to ask a group whose average age is 22 or so what the "foundation" of adventure games is will most definitely lead to a skewed result that may well vary widely from the adventure gaming public as a whole, including the views of the many people who come to Adventure Gamers home page for news and reviews but don't frequent the forums?

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther
Second, I truly laughed out loud at Kingzjester's comment, but actually, to make an analogy, what value would he place on an eight year olds' preferences, someone less than half his age? Not bib-wearing, perhaps, but also not widely experienced. That's how he and many others here seem to Jim and me. I'm not trying to start a flame-war, just trying to give a bit of perspective.

Well, I'm 19. So I guess I'm one of those "bib wearing eight year olds" you guys are talking about. I realize that the adventure genre tends to have an older audience than gaming in general, but if you're suggesting that people in their late teens/early twenties are unqualified to judge a game, I would have to disagree. These aren't toddlers we're talking about. They're adults, and they can see things just as clearly as any other adult. And especially since gaming as whole hasn't been around that long, I really don't see where the problem is. I'm not trying to sound mean or start a flame war or anything. I'm just saying that you shouldn't discount their opinion just because they happen to be young.

mag

[BacardiJim]

Consider: During the 80's and 90's, adventure games were generally much more expensive than they are today, costing $40-80 each. Why did people spend that much for them? Because they got weeks or even months out of playing time from each game. This was exactly because the story's "narrative flow" was broken up by puzzles.

Would you have spent $70 to get 12 hours worth of story?

But people did... because the puzzles, which were the actual raison d'etre of the genre, extended gameplay to weeks or months. (Note that this was before the Internet and downloadable walkthroughs.)

Any historical look at adventure gaming will clearly demonstrate that puzzling was a chief element of the genre long before "characters" and while most plots were still fairly simplistic. Thus, by definition, they are the "foundation" of adventure gaming. The basis. The rock on which the genre was built. And don't forget that that is the question being asked in the poll. Not "which is more important to you when you play a game?"

[Intrepid Homoludens]

All eight-year-olds here please speak up! It's time for Fairygdmther and BJ to change your bibs.

[ragnar]

During the time I have checked computer game prices including adventure games (which is since mid eighties I guess) they have always cost about the same as new, i.e. $40 - $60. It might have be different in other countries, but that's how it is in Sweden.

[The Seed]

To be honest, i'm quite shocked by the way this poll is turning out. For me, the balance between puzzles and story has always directly effected my opinion of the game.
That's probably why I don't like The Longest Journey as much as most people, because I felt like I was being led by the hand through the whole story, which didn't quite click with me, even though it is a magnificent story.
I prefer games that integrate the story and puzzles seamlessly.
The game that I think achieved this best was Monkey Island 2, which gave you loads of freedom to solve the puzzles, but didn't take anything away from the story.
When I play an adventure game, I don't just want an interactive storybook, I want something more involved.

[BacardiJim]

Adventure games dropped significantly in price here in the USA in the late 90's to around $15.-25 each. (Of course, they started getting much shorter then than they used to be, what with people no longer wanting those darned time-consuming puzzles.) With the last batch of games that came out last Fall-Xmas, the price jumped to $20-30 for new releases. In the US, the only two recent releases to debut at more than $30 were BS3 at $40 and URU at $50.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

All eight-year-olds here please speak up! It's time for Fairygdmther and BJ to change your bibs.

Now, trep, you're closer to BJ's age, we may have to enlist your help here, there are so many eight year old bib-wearers!

8-)

[Stinger]

Jim's right; prices have gone down quite a bit, but this is across the board for all computer games. When King's Quest VI came out, at the absolute peak of the genre, it listed for $80. Right around that time, when Phantasy Star IV came out for the Genesis, it listed for an amazing $100.

Time has driven prices down quite a bit. Now, even the most hyped and important new games (Warcraft III, Crystal Chronicles, Wind Waker, KOTOR) cost $50 and never more. Only items like the Warcraft III Special Edition collector's pack command more. Amusingly enough, it retailed for $60, a full $10 cheaper than The Adventures of Willy Beamish's original retail price.

So you can't pin price decline just on adventures. The more dramatic price decline of adventures compared to other genres is simply representative of the fact that it's not the market leader anymore.

*note* I am speaking only for American prices, of course.

- Evan

[ragnar]

There has definitely not been such dramatic price changes here in Sweden. At least not what I've seen.

And when we're speaking about prices. I preordered Syberia 2 the other day and it was priced at 399 SEK (about $50).

Also I think when the prices on computer games was at it's lowest, the dollar price were rather high, so that might have countered such effects somewhat.

[Fairygdmther]

If I'm doing my math correctly, Evan, you're about to be 23 in a couple of days, and Marek is 21? Is that correct?

FGM

[Stinger]

That's correct. And I expect a card.

- Evan

[Wormsie]

Tim Schafer, Jane Jensen and Roberta Williams have said that stories are the main elements in their games, if I remember correctly.

[BacardiJim]

To make this analogy again: currently Adam sandler is one of Hollywood's biggest box office draws. His movies make zillions of dollars. Yet on any critical level, they pretty much universally suck.

Adam Sandler's movies are supported almost entirely by exactly the age group most dominant on this forum.

In many polls, 16-24 year olds overwhelmingly reply that they "will not watch" a movie made in black-and-white.

I think that says a lot about why some older folks might not take the entertainment opinions of younger folks seriously.

Also, realize that we codgers already know something that younger folks don't realize and will often scream until they are blue in the face isn't true: that one's opinions about a great many things, from entertainment to politics, undergo some radical changes in the years between ages 25-28.

[Swordmaster]

Game prices in Finland have also stayed at pretty much the same level, give or take the effect of inflation and such. When I started playing computer games in the early 1990's, the standard cost for a new computer game was 300-400 Finnish marks (50-70 euros); now prices vary between 40-60 euros. Runaway, for instance, cost ~50 euros; Broken Sword 3 is sold at ~45 euros. I waited a year with The Longest Journey and got it for 30 euros.

Originally Posted by fairygdmthr

Not bib-wearing, perhaps, but also not widely experienced.

Do you mean not experienced with life or not experienced with the adventure genre? I've played adventure games for more than half of my life, ever since I was ten (I'm 23 now).

[Stinger]

It is one of God's mysterious ironies, I suppose, that I am quite seriously watching Billy Madison while I've been watching this thread.

I'm honest to heavens not kidding here.

[tabacco]

Actually, I've noticed the same thing about movies. Most people <20 or so won't watch black and white film. Confuses the hell out of me.

And I wasn't a big fan of Billy Madison, but I do have to say that there's something great about Bob Barker beating up Adam Sandler in whatsitcalled, the golf one.

[mag]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim
In many polls, 16-24 year olds overwhelmingly reply that they "will not watch" a movie made in black-and-white.

And a lot of older people won't even touch a computer game. Does that make their opinion less worthy? No. It just makes it different.

I'm perfectly willing to admit older people's experience gives them a different insight about a great many things that younger people might not realize. But I think it's about time that older people admitted that maybe younger people also have insights that they don't.

And besides, I don't think Adam Sandler's movies are a particularly good example of why younger people can't think about things on a critical level. They're just like any summer popcorn flick. Even the most serious film critic sometimes wants to just see a movie that's fun. That's not exclusive to teenagers.

BTW, why did this thread turn into a discussion about age?

mag

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by BacardiJim

Adam Sandler's movies are supported almost entirely by exactly the age group most dominant on this forum.

Adam Sandler, , must be one of the most odious Hollywood actors currently out there. Then again, I always enjoyed black-and-white films. And musical theatre.

[Deshrill]

I am one of those that prefer the stories to the puzzles and totally agree with the opinion that puzzles should flow with the story well. A game that does a very good job of this is the first Gabriel Knight game-- it has some hard puzzles, but they all logically make sense for the most part. GK 2, on the other hand, has the infamous cuckoo clock puzzle which isn't very logical at all.

Myst is one of those games I could never get into. The first-person perspective was part of it, but I think it was because I was so used to the LucasArts/Sierra On-line style of you playing a character in a story that I was really turned off by the gameplay in Myst: you walk from place to place all alone not being able to talk to anyone while solving environment-based puzzles.