[Thaurin]

Hi,

I'm playing Journeyman 3: Legacy of Time (DVD version) and I am amazed how good a game like this can look, even when it was released in '98. So, of course, like the guy I am, I started to wonder what would be possible when a developer went all-out with this kind of engine, developed for modern hardware.

The panoramic imaging could be hi-def, with a fully-animated (by FMV, naturally) environment and where you can walk forward and backward smoothly without triggering a whole transition sequence. The possibilities are staggering!

Anyway, are there more modern titles that use this configuration, or is the sub-genre dead?

[Crapstorm]

URU?

[cwapitm]

Scratches has this format. It's a very good game from the Horror genre. Very scary too.

[Stroggy]

Myst IV is the game that best utilized this 'technology'.
At times I forgot I was fixed to one spot and that nearly everything was pre-rendered, every scene was full of life: the plants swayed in the wind, beetles and birds would fly around and even in desolate places there would still be activity everywhere (crystals would glow or water would trickle down cavern walls)

[Thaurin]

Interesting. I read that Myst III: Exile was made by the same studio as Journeyman 3 and uses much of the same technology. Myst IV wasn't made by Presto, probably because they ceased to exist.

I'd like to see where this technology can go, because I think there is much more potential for it than a 3D engine, as far as adventure games are concerned at least. Myst IV might not be made by Presto, but it looks very interesting. Thanks for the suggestion! It's just that I've always been turned off by the series, because I HATE the slide-show gameplay that the first Myst and Riven offered. It just... stuck, or something.

I keep hearing of that indy release Scratches. Might want to check it out, too, if there's a demo.

EDIT: I just watched the Gamespot video review for Myst IV. While the scenes look amazing, it is node based and without transition video. While I hated the 90-degree slide-show turning most of all, I really enjoy the video transitions, too (like in 11th Hour ). Myst IV still looks interesting, but I have to wonder if all that can be made to work with node-to-node smooth transitions. That would be exploration at its best, I tell ya!

[Beacon]

3D engines have unlimited potential. I saw this article today. It is about a project to recreate Ancient Rome in 3D. Add some NPC characters and a story-line and you have the ingredients of an adventure game.

[Melanie68]

Thaurin:

Scratches demo (scroll down)

They released the Scratches, Directors Cut with some extras and the newest releases should have the update that will fancy up the graphics even more.

I played it and really, really liked it.

[Stroggy]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

It's just that I've always been turned off by the series, because I HATE the slide-show gameplay that the first Myst and Riven offered. It just... stuck, or something.

I'm not a fan of Myst or Riven, either, but I really liked Myst III and IV (probably because they had more story elements, more interaction with characters)

Originally Posted by Thaurin

Myst IV still looks interesting, but I have to wonder if all that can be made to work with node-to-node smooth transitions. That would be exploration at its best, I tell ya!

While it is true that not all locations have transitions, some (or rather, quite a few) do have transitions. There are only a few select places where I found the node-to-node skip a bit abrupt (as in, jumping ahead) but other than that I thought it worked perfectly (unlike other node-to-node games I was never or rarely lost or disorientated)

[Imari]

Scratches is a great game to be sure. Nucleosys released their SCream engine, used to make Scratches, and there are several indie developers already working with it.

Aura: The Sacred Rings by Streko also uses panoramic nodes and seems to be a somewhat similar engine.

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

I keep hearing of that indy release Scratches. Might want to check it out, too, if there's a demo.

EDIT: I just watched the Gamespot video review for Myst IV. While the scenes look amazing, it is node based and without transition video. While I hated the 90-degree slide-show turning most of all, I really enjoy the video transitions, too (like in 11th Hour ). Myst IV still looks interesting, but I have to wonder if all that can be made to work with node-to-node smooth transitions. That would be exploration at its best, I tell ya!

Myst V had the transitions. It's real time 3D but has a point 'n click mode. It also allows you to switch to a more FPS type control, where you aren't restricted to nodes.

Versailles 1685 came out around the same time as JP3. It had transitions between nodes throughout most of the game (not in the water garden though).

Traitors Gate also had transitions between nodes. But because the game was made to play off the CD's, they were kind of annoying. The game would probably be a lot better if the CD's could be copied to images on the hard drive.

The Puzz3D games that include a short adventure game after you finish the jigsaw also have transitions between nodes.

That's all I remember at the moment.

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

Anyway, are there more modern titles that use this configuration, or is the sub-genre dead?

Kheops Studio's hi-res animated panorama adventures are alive and kicking:
Return To Mysterious Island
Destination Treasure Island
Lost Cavern
Secrets of DaVinci
Journey to the Moon
Cleopatra

[Thaurin]

Always interesting to see how many titles there are that are very much worth checking out. There just isn't enough time, is there?

It's just that I was sort of blown away at how immersive Journeyman 3 is with its complete package of panoramic views and node transition. It's like you're actually there and the game was released in 1998! Exploration in that game is a real joy.

Glad to hear that Myst IV doesn't leave one disorientated. That's the biggest killjoy for me. How can you get into a game if you have to constantly get your bearings??

I briefly saw Myst V some place a while ago and I didn't really like the new interface. Not sure what it was, maybe it deserves a chance. As a whole, though, I wonder if I'm smart enough for the Myst games, hehe. Oh, 11th Hour wasn't easy neither and that ranks among my top games.

The thing is that somehow the panoramic/FMV approach is capable of producing more atmospheric environments than a real-time 3D engine can do. I should attribute this to cinematic effects that are lacking in 3D engines currently or the integration of FMV. Even a horrible real actor looks better and more natural than most 3D models in a cut scene, if you ask me.

So I'm just hoping that these "antiquated" devices will thrive in future games, but I fear that the people are 3D-obsessed.

[Stroggy]

Slightly off topic, I remember playing the Journeyman Project 3 demo a long time ago (before the game was released), I had great fun with it. I remember the demo being set in Atlantis and that you had to trick a potter to leave his workshop by impersonating his sister (or was it someone else?). I've been looking for the game ever since as it was never released here in Belgium (and I would like to buy it in a store, I don't like buying things on amazon or - even worse - eBay).

I must say both Myst III and IV had excellent actor integration (Myst IV even allowed you to look around while the actor was on the screen, all without it ever appearing that the actor was in the least bit superimposed)

I really disliked Myst V, it was pretty but I never got into the game. Myst V was too much like the original Myst and Riven in that you had no idea why you were there and everything you did know was needlessly cryptic, it would have been much better if it had been more like Myst III and IV where you at least understood the framework story. Myst V also - sadly - used 3D models instead of actors. Now with all the promises that they were using special technology and actual actors mixed with 3D models or something of the sort, the characters still looked like rather dated models with some average textures.

[Thaurin]

Yeah, exactly. I hate that. I mean, 3D has its place, certainly. But real actors are infinitely more interesting to look at most of the time. As much as I'm enjoying Journeyman 3, I'd really like to try my hand on Myst III and IV now after reading these comments.

The created illusion of 3D using these panoramic techniques far outpass 3D in this genre. That said, the exploration in the Tex Murphy games was very fun, but that had live actors.

[Jadefalcon]

I imagine the Delaware St John games count in this list wouldnt they?

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by Thaurin

It's just that I was sort of blown away at how immersive Journeyman 3 is with its complete package of panoramic views and node transition.

There are plenty of modern games with 360 degree panoramic views, but very very few with the node to node transitions. By node to node transition I assume you mean the short video that shows what you see as you move from point A to point B. A lot of the panoramic games mentioned in this thread do not have that.

The thing is that somehow the panoramic/FMV approach is capable of producing more atmospheric environments than a real-time 3D engine can do. I should attribute this to cinematic effects that are lacking in 3D engines currently or the integration of FMV.

It can't be the 3D part. As long as your video card can support it, real time 3D engines are capable of doing all the atmospheric things that panoramic can. I do agree about the filmed actors though. 3D isn't quite there yet as far as producing 100% realistic people.

Even a horrible real actor looks better and more natural than most 3D models in a cut scene, if you ask me.

Most current games with 360 degree panoramic views use prerendered 3D models. Not many games use filmed actors at all these days. Other than Myst IV, I can only think of a few independently produced adventures, but most of those are snapshot style rather than 360 degree panoramic. Conspiracies is a game that combined filmed actors with real time 3D, but the graphics were low quality -- very grainy filmed parts and rather angular low-res 3D parts.

[Stroggy]

The only (popular) modern game I know that still uses real actors is Command & Conquer 3, which isn't an adventure game.
But, though I do prefer actual actors, I think Half Life 2 came very close to using 3D models successfully, the scripted scenes where several characters would interact with each-other and the environment were always a joy to behold.

[Terramax]

Play Shenmue and Silent Hill 3. Those games have some really good character models and acting. The latter game used real actors with those electronic suits to capture their exact movement - and the end result shows the great results.

I'm interested, if The Journeyman 3 was released in 98, was that even a time when you had games on DVD? Or was it a rerelease?

[crabapple]

Originally Posted by Terramax

I'm interested, if The Journeyman 3 was released in 98, was that even a time when you had games on DVD? Or was it a rerelease?

The DVD version of Journeyman Project 3 came out shortly after the CD version. Tex Murphy Overseer, Dark Side of the Moon, Tender Loving Care, Zork Grand Inquisitor, and Riven were some other games that were released on DVD around 1998-1999. But there weren't many -- at least not in the US. There was a 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea game planned for DVD, but unfortunately it wasn't completed.

In Europe there were other games on DVD. Reah had a DVD version and Cryo Interactive published most of their CD games on DVD.

[stuboy]

This node-based technology is pretty much dead now modern computers can render almost the same quality in realtime. I do agree about the actors, though, but with good voices, art design and mo-cap 3D models perfectly tolerable.