Virtual Mugging in MMORPG

gillyruless · 08-19-2005, 05:48 AM

I have finally seen everything!

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/nation...na014000c.html

If you virtually mug someone, are you breaking the law? More importantly, if a tree fall in the forest and there's no one to hear it then was there sound?

Aj_ · 08-19-2005, 05:55 AM

Selling virtual items for real money breaks the games economy, and is against the rules of the server, but it is an unenforcable rule.

If you virtually mug someone you are not breaking the law, the game allows you to loot from people you have killed. Using bots is against the rules of the server, and that probably is against the law.

gillyruless · 08-19-2005, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aj_

Selling virtual items for real money breaks the games economy, and is against the rules of the server, but it is an unenforcable rule.

If you virtually mug someone you are not breaking the law, the game allows you to loot from people you have killed. Using bots is against the rules of the server, and that probably is against the law.

I guess that makes sense. I wonder what the guy who got arrested was charged with.

Aj_ · 08-19-2005, 06:18 AM

I'm going to guess that it's similar to trespassing, like having a fancy dress party where everyone is allowed to come aslong as they're dressed like Elvis, but if you're not dressed like Elvis you're not invited thus you are trespassing.

After a brisk nap · 08-19-2005, 06:22 AM

We discussed this at work yesterday, and here's what we concluded:

Virtual "mugging" is not a crime at all. It's no more "theft" than fragging someone in Unreal Tournament (or whatever the kids play these days) is homicide. This aspect of the story merely confuses the issue.
Using bots to play the game is probably against the End-User License Agreement (EULA). This does not in itself make it a crime.
Selling in-game items for real-world money is also against the EULA. This also is not in itself a crime.

You can make an argument for two different crimes having been committed:

The guy was cheating (by using a bot) in a game that has real, monetary rewards. It's like if someone was cheating in a game of poker. Arguably this amounts to fraud. However, it's tricky to make the case because the people who were cheated couldn't have cashed in the monetary value of their winnings without themselves breaking the EULA.
The guy knowingly violated the EULA (a contract between him and the game company) for his own monetary benefit and to the detriment of the game company. (By ruining the game for other players, he was making it less attractive, driving players away. This could mean the company lost business because of him.) If he agreed to the EULA in bad faith, that's deceit, and again you could make a case for fraud. However, it seems doubtful that you could make anything stick beyond "breach of contract."

The whole things seems pretty flimsy, to be honest. An arrest appears over-the-top. But then, I am not a lawyer, so what do I know.

SakSquash · 08-19-2005, 06:38 AM

This is all so completely stupid. These nurds need to grow up.

Shodan · 08-19-2005, 07:50 AM

Here's a quote from this interesting article.

Quote:

You may have heard about a guy who recently was convicted of murdering a man during a dispute over a rare, valuable sword. That sword that was not made of metal or anything solid, but rather of 1's and 0's inside a computer hundreds of miles away. It was a sword he had won in the MMORPG Legend of Mir 3.

Insane, right? I mean, let's say our friend John has his Bonebiter (one of countless powerful weapons in WoW) and a man steals it somehow. Should the thief be convicted of a crime and punished in the real world? Did you snort with laughter at that question? Why?

The victim worked many hours to "earn" the object. The victim used it daily and depended on it. He derived happiness and satisfaction from it. So why shouldn't depriving him of it be punishable by law? If you say, "but it's just something he used in a game," I'll say that golf is also just a game. Want to see what happens to me when I steal a new set of golf clubs?

If you say, "but the Bonebiter doesn't even exist," I'll say it exists in exactly the same way that the songs and software I download off Bittorrent exist. And yet stealing them is a crime. The only difference is that when I steal a song, nobody else is deprived of the song. When that guy stole John's Bonebiter, he was left unarmed and forced to go find a replacement. That theft actually hurts more, not less.

So when will we start to see laws prohibiting the theft and misuse of game-world objects? As soon as members of the gaming generation become lawmakers, that's when.

At first I was tempted to call these onlines players lamers. But what this article states is true - these players have spent not only money, but also vast amounts of time to play these online games. Getting these items stolen must hurt the victim deeply - even if the items are only virtual.

Lucien21 · 08-19-2005, 07:59 AM

Are there virtual police to arrest them and have a virtual trial and lock you character in a virtual cell for a few years.

Might be an idea and a good game addition.

I don't really play MMORPG games any more I got sick of the constant PK'ers ruining it.

Shodan · 08-19-2005, 08:15 AM

Actually, in Ragnarok Online, if you are suspected of botting, you apparently get transported to a little 'jail' room with bars all over it.

Eh I know what you mean Lucien. Online games seem to bring out the worst in people.

Talas · 08-19-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shodan

Eh I know what you mean Lucien. Online games seem to bring out the worst in people.

Normal people + anonymity + audience = Idiots.

(Or something like that, it's from From Penny-Arcade)

Lucien21 · 08-19-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talas

Normal people + anonymity + audience = Idiots.

(Or something like that, it's from From Penny-Arcade)

Penny Arcard Rocks

Jazhara7 · 08-19-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talas

Normal people + anonymity + audience = Idiots.

(Or something like that, it's from From Penny-Arcade)

Or you could just see the Internet as a large group of people and apply the good old rule of "The more people, the less brains" to it.

-

BenjaminBunny · 08-19-2005, 10:14 AM

think they should just implant an ability anyway for stealth class toons to sneak up and pickpocket characters anyway.....

would stifle motivation for cheating too....

Talas · 08-19-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

Or you could just see the Internet as a large group of people and apply the good old rule of "The more people, the less brains" to it.

The Internet is doomed

Locue · 08-21-2005, 04:12 PM

Virtual mugging? Well, it was just a matter of time. Years of virtual relationships, virtual sex, virtual break-ups and virtual goofing-around and the MMORPG-people have finally evolved so they can mug each other. If they were my kids I would be crying of happiness right now.

BenjaminBunny · 08-22-2005, 12:11 AM

nother link on same incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4165880.stm

08-19-2005, 05:48 AM	#1
gillyruless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 2,022	Virtual Mugging in MMORPG I have finally seen everything! http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/nation...na014000c.html If you virtually mug someone, are you breaking the law? More importantly, if a tree fall in the forest and there's no one to hear it then was there sound? Share Share this post on Twitter

08-19-2005, 05:55 AM	#2
Aj_ Beyond Belief Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Blighty Posts: 2,186	Selling virtual items for real money breaks the games economy, and is against the rules of the server, but it is an unenforcable rule. If you virtually mug someone you are not breaking the law, the game allows you to loot from people you have killed. Using bots is against the rules of the server, and that probably is against the law. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Richard Dawkins :: AAI 07 :: NOVA ID on Trial :: Skeptic's Guide :: Beyond Belief :: Out Campaign :: NeuroLogica :: Skepticality

08-19-2005, 06:18 AM	#4
Aj_ Beyond Belief Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Blighty Posts: 2,186	I'm going to guess that it's similar to trespassing, like having a fancy dress party where everyone is allowed to come aslong as they're dressed like Elvis, but if you're not dressed like Elvis you're not invited thus you are trespassing. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Richard Dawkins :: AAI 07 :: NOVA ID on Trial :: Skeptic's Guide :: Beyond Belief :: Out Campaign :: NeuroLogica :: Skepticality Last edited by Aj_; 08-19-2005 at 06:35 AM.

08-19-2005, 06:22 AM	#5
After a brisk nap Elegantly copy+pasted Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,773	We discussed this at work yesterday, and here's what we concluded: Virtual "mugging" is not a crime at all. It's no more "theft" than fragging someone in Unreal Tournament (or whatever the kids play these days) is homicide. This aspect of the story merely confuses the issue. Using bots to play the game is probably against the End-User License Agreement (EULA). This does not in itself make it a crime. Selling in-game items for real-world money is also against the EULA. This also is not in itself a crime. You can make an argument for two different crimes having been committed: The guy was cheating (by using a bot) in a game that has real, monetary rewards. It's like if someone was cheating in a game of poker. Arguably this amounts to fraud. However, it's tricky to make the case because the people who were cheated couldn't have cashed in the monetary value of their winnings without themselves breaking the EULA. The guy knowingly violated the EULA (a contract between him and the game company) for his own monetary benefit and to the detriment of the game company. (By ruining the game for other players, he was making it less attractive, driving players away. This could mean the company lost business because of him.) If he agreed to the EULA in bad faith, that's deceit, and again you could make a case for fraud. However, it seems doubtful that you could make anything stick beyond "breach of contract." The whole things seems pretty flimsy, to be honest. An arrest appears over-the-top. But then, I am not a lawyer, so what do I know. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Please excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.

08-19-2005, 06:38 AM	#6
SakSquash Banned User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Paltz...for now... Posts: 6,177	This is all so completely stupid. These nurds need to grow up. Share Share this post on Twitter

08-19-2005, 07:59 AM	#8
Lucien21 Psychonaut Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 5,114	Are there virtual police to arrest them and have a virtual trial and lock you character in a virtual cell for a few years. Might be an idea and a good game addition. I don't really play MMORPG games any more I got sick of the constant PK'ers ruining it. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ I'm not insane, my mother had me tested!

08-19-2005, 08:15 AM	#9
Shodan with extra cheese! Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 334	Actually, in Ragnarok Online, if you are suspected of botting, you apparently get transported to a little 'jail' room with bars all over it. Eh I know what you mean Lucien. Online games seem to bring out the worst in people. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ and all the signs that should show me what's right and what's wrong have been knocked down, shaken and smothered by previous lovers and non-descript others like me, who don't know what it's for, all I know is that I want more.

08-19-2005, 10:14 AM	#13
BenjaminBunny fire breathing Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New England Posts: 514	think they should just implant an ability anyway for stealth class toons to sneak up and pickpocket characters anyway..... would stifle motivation for cheating too.... Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ ~Tranquility is beyond form, it cannot be grasped and held. It is beyond sound but perhaps within sound, yet it cannot be heard. It cannot be seen yet it lies in everything we see.~

08-21-2005, 04:12 PM	#15
Locue Sol Narcissus Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you. Posts: 54	Virtual mugging? Well, it was just a matter of time. Years of virtual relationships, virtual sex, virtual break-ups and virtual goofing-around and the MMORPG-people have finally evolved so they can mug each other. If they were my kids I would be crying of happiness right now. Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ Since a member of these boards PM-ed me saying I was rude to him, I have been forced to include this as my signature. Warning! The above post or comment may or may not contain sarcasm and/or irony and in some cases even serious cynicism and other types of tough guy talk. Please consult the nearest dictionary to avoid embarassing misunderstandings. Remember: It's never personal.

08-22-2005, 12:11 AM	#16
BenjaminBunny fire breathing Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New England Posts: 514	nother link on same incident. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4165880.stm Share Share this post on Twitter __________________ ~Tranquility is beyond form, it cannot be grasped and held. It is beyond sound but perhaps within sound, yet it cannot be heard. It cannot be seen yet it lies in everything we see.~

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